I want my conlang to have palatalization in front of /i/ and /ɪ/, but in the voiced stops only (and the ones that are not labial, because, yeah).
Like: /di/ > /d͡ʒi/ and /gi/ > /ʒi/.
So first off, I can't really find any examples of languages that do this without doing the same thing in the voiceless versions. Romance does /ki/ > /si/ or /tʃi/, Japanese does /ti/ > /tʃi/. I saw something about Arabic doing /g/ > /ʒ/, universally, but it's not really the same thing, all though I will probably doing that specifically anyway because I don't like g.
Also, I want to keep that distinction between /d͡ʒ/ the affricate and /ʒ/. So I'm saying for now that the /g/ > /ʒ/ is a much older sound change and /dʲ/ > /d͡ʒ/ is more recent. So that way, a sister language (if I bother making up one), would have no /g/ as well, but still allow /di/ (which, indeed, should be that sister language's word for "no").
But anyway, would y'all think that is implausible, to have /dʲi/ to /d͡ʒi/, but no change in /tʲi/?
Thank you.
Edit: that sister language as of now will probably not have the same vowel reductions, so the word for no would be /di/.
Palatalization(?) help
Palatalization(?) help
Last edited by Nmmali on 09 Apr 2019 07:09, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Palatalization(?) help
There's inscriptional evidence that in Latin gi and di palatalised before ci and ti. However, strictly speaking this was not palatalisation but iotation: this happened before a vowel when these sequences were pronounced [gj], [dj], [kj] and [tj], and the voiced clusters assimilated to [jː] and/or [d͡ʒː]* while the unvoiced clusters remained.
*My (and some expert's) interpretation, which is based on the varying outcomes in modern Western Romance languages, is that originally there was free variation between [jː] and [d͡ʒː] similar to modern Spanish.
Palatalisation of /g/ but not /k/ could be explained by /g/ becoming /ɣ/ unconditionally (a very plausible change), which then becomes /ʒ/ when palatalised and something else when not palatalised, if you don't like the sound. From cross-linguistic evidence we can see that /ɣ/ is more susceptible to palatalisation that /k/ (e.g. in Old English).
As for palatalisation of/di/ but not /ti/, I don't know if it's as plausible, but weird asymmetries in sound change happen all the time. /g/ to /ʒ/ but /d/ to /d͡ʒ/ actually happens in my native language, in Brazilian Portuguese and probably elsewhere. In both cases it's, as you've guessed, due to different timing of the change.
P. S.: As for labials, yeah... they are hard to palatalise because their articulation doesn't involve the tongue.
*My (and some expert's) interpretation, which is based on the varying outcomes in modern Western Romance languages, is that originally there was free variation between [jː] and [d͡ʒː] similar to modern Spanish.
Palatalisation of /g/ but not /k/ could be explained by /g/ becoming /ɣ/ unconditionally (a very plausible change), which then becomes /ʒ/ when palatalised and something else when not palatalised, if you don't like the sound. From cross-linguistic evidence we can see that /ɣ/ is more susceptible to palatalisation that /k/ (e.g. in Old English).
As for palatalisation of/di/ but not /ti/, I don't know if it's as plausible, but weird asymmetries in sound change happen all the time. /g/ to /ʒ/ but /d/ to /d͡ʒ/ actually happens in my native language, in Brazilian Portuguese and probably elsewhere. In both cases it's, as you've guessed, due to different timing of the change.
P. S.: As for labials, yeah... they are hard to palatalise because their articulation doesn't involve the tongue.
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Re: Palatalization(?) help
I suppose you could have a sort of "stepped" sound change, e.g. [tj kj dj gj] > [tj kj dj ɟʝ] > [tj kj ɟʝ ʝ] > [tj kj dʒ ʒ], perhaps? The assimilation still only affects the voiced clusters, but it affects [gj] first, which then further lenites before it affects [dj].Zekoslav wrote: ↑05 Apr 2019 15:14 There's inscriptional evidence that in Latin gi and di palatalised before ci and ti. However, strictly speaking this was not palatalisation but iotation: this happened before a vowel when these sequences were pronounced [gj], [dj], [kj] and [tj], and the voiced clusters assimilated to [jː] and/or [d͡ʒː]* while the unvoiced clusters remained.
*My (and some expert's) interpretation, which is based on the varying outcomes in modern Western Romance languages, is that originally there was free variation between [jː] and [d͡ʒː] similar to modern Spanish.
Palatalisation of /g/ but not /k/ could be explained by /g/ becoming /ɣ/ unconditionally (a very plausible change), which then becomes /ʒ/ when palatalised and something else when not palatalised, if you don't like the sound. From cross-linguistic evidence we can see that /ɣ/ is more susceptible to palatalisation that /k/ (e.g. in Old English).
As for palatalisation of/di/ but not /ti/, I don't know if it's as plausible, but weird asymmetries in sound change happen all the time. /g/ to /ʒ/ but /d/ to /d͡ʒ/ actually happens in my native language, in Brazilian Portuguese and probably elsewhere. In both cases it's, as you've guessed, due to different timing of the change.
P. S.: As for labials, yeah... they are hard to palatalise because their articulation doesn't involve the tongue.
Either that or something like [tj kj dj gj] > [tj kj ɹj~ɾj ɰj] > [tj kj rj j] > [tj kj ʒ j] > [tj kj dʒ ʒ]? The voiced plosives become fricatives and then approximants first, and I don't think at that point it's unreasonable for [rj] to become a "palatal" without a similar change affecting [tj]. The only issue I could think with this particular route is that I'd expect to see [d] and [g] shift to fricatives/approximants in other environments as well.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Palatalization(?) help
Thank you both for your help. As for [g], for now I'm going to have an unconditional shift to [ɣ]. This, in turn, will drop altogether word initially, become [j] elsewhere, and develop into [ʒ] when lenited left of [i:] and [ i ], the latter transforming into modern [ɪ].
The only thing that comes to mind is the lenition of [d] in the syllable coda, and presently the phonotactics do not allow it the coda anyway, except the cluster [nd], and, well, yeah. [nd] is about as hard-core as the coda gets, so [nd͡ʒ] is maybe just... no.
Not doing it before [ɛ e:] either. In fact, the only place I can see it happening any further might be [dr] in the onset, and that could easily become [d͡ʒ], but I'm not sure if I want to make that commitment yet. Off the top of my head I can think of [drɑn], and I'm not sure if I want another homophone like [d͡ʒɑn], the masculine inanimate article that procedes vowel onsets, or [d͡ʒɑ],which is the normal form of that article and the second person feminine oblique pronoun. Of course, that wouldn't be intolerable, just that I use my number system every day, and it's habit, and I'm too lazy to change it. But I might. I could always do the retroflex thing instead and have [ ɖ ] in that instance. That's a thought. It's already done for historic *[sr] into [ʂ]. I would much sooner prefer that to [d͡ʒ] in that context.
But anyway, thanks again.
What other environments, for instance?
The only thing that comes to mind is the lenition of [d] in the syllable coda, and presently the phonotactics do not allow it the coda anyway, except the cluster [nd], and, well, yeah. [nd] is about as hard-core as the coda gets, so [nd͡ʒ] is maybe just... no.
Not doing it before [ɛ e:] either. In fact, the only place I can see it happening any further might be [dr] in the onset, and that could easily become [d͡ʒ], but I'm not sure if I want to make that commitment yet. Off the top of my head I can think of [drɑn], and I'm not sure if I want another homophone like [d͡ʒɑn], the masculine inanimate article that procedes vowel onsets, or [d͡ʒɑ],which is the normal form of that article and the second person feminine oblique pronoun. Of course, that wouldn't be intolerable, just that I use my number system every day, and it's habit, and I'm too lazy to change it. But I might. I could always do the retroflex thing instead and have [ ɖ ] in that instance. That's a thought. It's already done for historic *[sr] into [ʂ]. I would much sooner prefer that to [d͡ʒ] in that context.
But anyway, thanks again.
Re: Palatalization(?) help
I think, by "other environments" I might have meant "between vowels", but the that sort of lenition could probably be unconditional as well. I think I was assuming you wanted to have /d/ and /g/ remain voiced plosives, appearing as [dʒ] and [ʒ] respectively before /ɪ/ and /i:/.Nmmali wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019 07:06 Thank you both for your help. As for [g], for now I'm going to have an unconditional shift to [ɣ]. This, in turn, will drop altogether word initially, become [j] elsewhere, and develop into [ʒ] when lenited left of [i:] and [ i ], the latter transforming into modern [ɪ].What other environments, for instance?
The only thing that comes to mind is the lenition of [d] in the syllable coda, and presently the phonotactics do not allow it the coda anyway, except the cluster [nd], and, well, yeah. [nd] is about as hard-core as the coda gets, so [nd͡ʒ] is maybe just... no.
Not doing it before [ɛ e:] either. In fact, the only place I can see it happening any further might be [dr] in the onset, and that could easily become [d͡ʒ], but I'm not sure if I want to make that commitment yet. Off the top of my head I can think of [drɑn], and I'm not sure if I want another homophone like [d͡ʒɑn], the masculine inanimate article that procedes vowel onsets, or [d͡ʒɑ],which is the normal form of that article and the second person feminine oblique pronoun. Of course, that wouldn't be intolerable, just that I use my number system every day, and it's habit, and I'm too lazy to change it. But I might. I could always do the retroflex thing instead and have [ ɖ ] in that instance. That's a thought. It's already done for historic *[sr] into [ʂ]. I would much sooner prefer that to [d͡ʒ] in that context.
But anyway, thanks again.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.