Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

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Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Constructor »

OK, folks. this is my first project going anywhere past a cipher. I am NOT a linguist, just a hobbyist, so this thread will be a much-evolving thing, with just as many questions as rules. So, please jump in with some thoughts.

My aim is to bend aspects of Spanish with aspects of Dutch, and of course have something original come of it. I'm not sure in what percentages or ways yet, but maybe that will become more clear as I complete the various steps within this.

To start out, I have my orthography, which is not complete yet. I'm unsure about certain letters' sounds, and any exceptions that will be implemented (all languages have them!).

  • consonants
    B
    CH [x]
    D [d]
    F [f]
    D [d] (Probably [t] after a preceding consonant)
    F [f]
    G [ɣ]
    H [h]
    J [y]
    K [k]
    L [l]
    M [m]
    N [n]
    NJ
    P [p]
    QU [ku]
    R [r] [ɾ]
    S
    SCH [x? probably not. When I hear Schiphol airport being pronounced, it seems somewhat like a Swedish "skj"]
    T [t]
    V [v]
    W [ʋ]
    X [ks]
    Z [z]



  • vowels
    A [ɑ]
    E [ɛ]
    I
    O [oː]
    U
    EE
    OUW [ʌw]
    Y [ɛj]


I have read articles on conjugation, both in Spanish and Dutch. Neither are very easy, but Dutch seems more complicated by a mile. I think my other main curiosities at this point is the article in its various forms, and gender. I have no interest in having male and female words, but my impression was that gender went beyond that linguistically.

ETA: Pardon my lack of proper tables. I don't know how to do that.

ETA 24/08/11 6:51 am: Settled on R being either an alveolar trill or flap, depending on position. Noted.
Last edited by Constructor on 24 Aug 2011 15:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by eldin raigmore »

Welcome here.
Your first post is above-average for a newbie, I think.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by thetha »

Constructor wrote:J [y]
I hope you mean J [j]. [y] is a front rounded vowel, like the uu in Dutch.
Also <sch> is [sx].
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Ollock »

<qu> for /ku/ is bad mojo, you should get rid of it. Let me see if I can chartify your phonology.

Code: Select all

Nasal                   m n  ɲ(?)
Voiced Plosive          b d 
Voiceless Plosive                 k
Voiced Fricative        v z       ɣ
Voiceless Fricative     f s       x h
Approximant             w    j
Lateral                    l
Rhotic                     r
If that displays right, you can see that your plosives are wacky unbalanced. I recommend at least adding /p t/. You can leave out /g/ without it being too odd (Arabic weirdly lacks /p/). Otherwise consonants are fine.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Constructor »

Thanks. Not my first post on this board, my 34th, but my first conlang attempted here.
Theta wrote:
Constructor wrote:J [y]
I hope you mean J [j]. [y] is a front rounded vowel, like the uu in Dutch.
Also <sch> is [sx].
I think I need to look at the IPA chart again. I think I forgot to put it in IPA terms and just described it. That is, I'd want the letter "j" to be treated like the English consonant "y".

Thanks! I'll try to put up more ideas tomorrow. Not sure if this is a similar starting point for you all, or whether you started out in a different aspect of your conlang, like, say, lexicon (which sounds like a big beast to me).
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by roninbodhisattva »

Ollock wrote:(Arabic weirdly lacks /p/)
Lack of /p/ isn't actually that weird.

But the voiceless stop gaps you have are.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Ollock »

roninbodhisattva wrote:
Ollock wrote:(Arabic weirdly lacks /p/)
Lack of /p/ isn't actually that weird.

But the voiceless stop gaps you have are.
Yes, what I meant to say that, you can lack a phone here or there in your series, but /b d k/ is some crazy Klingonesque bullshit.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Constructor »

Yeah, upon reading a wiki on [ɣ], I realize I sure as hell can't have a final g doing that sorta thing. I still think it's an OK value for if g is followed by a vowel, but other than that, I'm not so sure.

I'm in a rush, but I'll fix that tonight, and maybe start some conjugation rules.

I dunno. Like I asked earlier, where did you all start? Sound inventories? Conjugations? Inventories just seems to me the most basic part of a conlang project. But I don't know. It's my first time progressing past a cipher.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Constructor »

Theta wrote:
Constructor wrote:J [y]
I hope you mean J [j]. [y] is a front rounded vowel, like the uu in Dutch.
Also <sch> is [sx].
Yes, I sure do. Thanks for that. I do like that [y] value (i.e. Cambuur, a Dutch football club), but don't think that'll figure into Nederano.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by eldin raigmore »

Ollock wrote:<qu> for /ku/ is bad mojo, you should get rid of it. Let me see if I can chartify your phonology.

Code: Select all

Nasal                   m n  ɲ(?)
Voiced Plosive          b d 
Voiceless Plosive                 k
Voiced Fricative        v z       ɣ
Voiceless Fricative     f s       x h
Approximant             w    j
Lateral                    l
Rhotic                     r
If that displays right, you can see that your plosives are wacky unbalanced. I recommend at least adding /p t/. You can leave out /g/ without it being too odd (Arabic weirdly lacks /p/). Otherwise consonants are fine.
Lacking all three of /p/ and /t/ and /g/ while having all three of /b/ and /d/ and /k/ is weird, or at least not the usual thing in natlangs.
A natlang would be much likelier to have just one gap out of /b p d t g k/.
Like maybe it would have /b p d g k/ and [t ] and [d ] would be allophones; [d ] intervocalically and [t ] word-initially or word-finally or something.

But note that you don't have bilabial fricatives nor labiodental nasals, stops, or approximants.

You make /m b (p) v f w/ be all one series, even though in some languages /v f/ are not at the same point of articulation as /m b w/.

That's surely natural. Unless English, for example, is unnaturalistic and unrealistic.

Something like that could happen with your stops, too.
You might have /b p d g k/ where [t ] and [k ] are allophones. Or something.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Ollock »

eldin raigmore wrote:But note that you don't have bilabial fricatives nor labiodental nasals, stops, or approximants.

You make /m b (p) v f w/ be all one series, even though in some languages /v f/ are not at the same point of articulation as /m b w/.

That's surely natural. Unless English, for example, is unnaturalistic and unrealistic.
Yes, well that's another thing entirely. I don't think we need to confuse him with this just yet. Just giving him the idea that phonemes tend to roughly fall into series is fine. Plenty of languages consider labio-dental and bilabial to be at the same POA for organizational purposes -- or at least they're analyzed that way unless a specific language needs them to be different.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by eldin raigmore »

Ollock wrote:Yes, well that's another thing entirely. I don't think we need to confuse him with this just yet. Just giving him the idea that phonemes tend to roughly fall into series is fine. Plenty of languages consider labio-dental and bilabial to be at the same POA for organizational purposes -- or at least they're analyzed that way unless a specific language needs them to be different.
You're right; entirely so.

If my post was confusing, ignore it. I didn't intend to confuse.

You might enjoy checking out
Voicing in Plosives and Fricatives
Voicing and Gaps in Plosive Systems
Uvular Consonants
Glottalized Consonants
Lateral Consonants
The Velar Nasal
Absence of Common Consonants
Presence of Uncommon Consonants



The old WALS also had a feature on inclusion of unusual consonants (I think they were /N/ aka /ŋ/ and /T/ aka /þ/), as well as 5A which is about leaving out common consonants (namely, /p/ and /g/). Nevermind, they still do; features 18 and 19.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Constructor »

Thanks to everybody. You all haven't chewed me up and spat me out. I look forward to learning more, and then doing more. The list of links above should serve me well. While wikipedia does have sound samples, and they are good, it takes a lot of navigating to get everything you want. These links ought to be better.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Constructor »

B
CH [x] Note: see SCH
D [d] ([t] after a preceding consonant)
F [ɸ]
G [ɣ]
H [h]
J [y]
K [k]
L [l]
M [m]
N [n]
NJ [ɲ]
P [p]
QU [kw]
R [r] [ɾ]
S
SCH [sx]
T [t]
V [v]
W [ʋ]
X [ks], or initially [z]
Z [z]

OK. Just a few minor mods for now. All I have time for tonight.

Might rethink vowels, because even though I like them right now, I had thought to use acute accents somehow (instead of umlauts). Still need to assign a value to EE, as well, IIRC.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Constructor »

Still no decision on acute accents, but possibly just to keep consecutive vowels (i.e. ee, oo) seperate (as in the English "cooperate"). Just tonight, I was thinking of playing around with stress rules, but I always found that a bit tricky when learning natlangs inschool, so I may leave that alone for a while. But my point is that accute accents could be used for stress.

As posted in another thread, just to give my brain a break, I started contemplating a number system. Zero through ten would be what they are, but then eleven through at least twenty would take the form "ten and one, ten and two, etc.", but in one word, i.e. "diezenuno", which I just made up ("en" is dutch for "and"). But going beyond this is the beginning of another potential headache, so I shall stop for now.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Constructor »

In another thread on this section, someone was complaining that they'd like the author to use PDF files. Honestly, I wouldn't mind trying that out, versus everything being in Word, and in tables, which I apparently don't know how to do right.

Not even sure who puts out the PDF format, though. any help on this?
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Darkgamma »

Constructor wrote:In another thread on this section, someone was complaining that they'd like the author to use PDF files. Honestly, I wouldn't mind trying that out, versus everything being in Word, and in tables, which I apparently don't know how to do right.

Not even sure who puts out the PDF format, though. any help on this?
Open Office, Libre Office
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Ossicone »

Any document editor should do pdf's now.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by xijlwya »

Alternatively a pdf printer like this one will do. It will pretent to be a printer and fool your computer into actually converting .doc into .pdf.
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Re: Nederano - a jump into the deep end!

Post by Darkgamma »

xijlwya wrote:Alternatively a pdf printer like this one will do. It will pretent to be a printer and fool your computer into actually converting .doc into .pdf.
Too complicated. In my days, we waved cookies in front of the computer's head instead.
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