Omzinian Scrap thread

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Omzinesý
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Romlang Idea

Post by Omzinesý »

Ælfwine wrote:
01 Dec 2019 23:33
Omzinesý wrote:
25 Nov 2019 13:45
This is an idea of a Romlang. Usually they are very boring so to take those ideas further I should find up much more, but this a notepad.

s => ʃ
k [+front] => s
g [+ front] => ʒ => z
j => ʒ => z

I'm still considering what will happen with /s/ in coda positions. Maybe it is /ʃ/ which sounds very German, or maybe it deletes with compensatory lengthening.

So there is a three-sibilant system [s, z, ʃ] which is written <c/ç, z, s> respectively.
<s> for /ʃ/ gives a Hungarian taste.
Because of assimilation and final devoicing, /s/ and /z/ merge in the coda position, so <ç> does not have to appear there and <z> is always used.

Stress always falls on the first syllable, which can be of Germanic influence. So verbs can lose the theme vowel of the infinitives "cantre" for 'to sing'.
I might actually steal these sound changes for my romlang, as it would fit the location (western Hungary) if you don't mind of course. I would keep /ʃ/ word finally.

And like Hungarian I'd write these phonemes <sz z s> respectively.
Omzinesý wrote:
30 Nov 2019 08:36
The lang develops a Slavic-style aspect system that is based on preverbs. The language can thus get rid of the perfects.
I just have to study a bit how Latin preverbs work.
God damn it, you are just full of good ideas aren't you?
Be my guest!

We will see if my project gets so far that we can compare.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - a Romlang idea

Post by Omzinesý »

/kwe/ => /kø/
/gwe/ => /gø/

Quattuor => qöttúr ['køttu:r] 'four'

/iu/ => /y:/
civitat => civtat => ciutat => cűtat ['sy:tat]

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Romlang Idea

Post by Ælfwine »

Omzinesý wrote:
02 Dec 2019 00:25
Ælfwine wrote:
01 Dec 2019 23:33
Omzinesý wrote:
25 Nov 2019 13:45
This is an idea of a Romlang. Usually they are very boring so to take those ideas further I should find up much more, but this a notepad.

s => ʃ
k [+front] => s
g [+ front] => ʒ => z
j => ʒ => z

I'm still considering what will happen with /s/ in coda positions. Maybe it is /ʃ/ which sounds very German, or maybe it deletes with compensatory lengthening.

So there is a three-sibilant system [s, z, ʃ] which is written <c/ç, z, s> respectively.
<s> for /ʃ/ gives a Hungarian taste.
Because of assimilation and final devoicing, /s/ and /z/ merge in the coda position, so <ç> does not have to appear there and <z> is always used.

Stress always falls on the first syllable, which can be of Germanic influence. So verbs can lose the theme vowel of the infinitives "cantre" for 'to sing'.
I might actually steal these sound changes for my romlang, as it would fit the location (western Hungary) if you don't mind of course. I would keep /ʃ/ word finally.

And like Hungarian I'd write these phonemes <sz z s> respectively.
Omzinesý wrote:
30 Nov 2019 08:36
The lang develops a Slavic-style aspect system that is based on preverbs. The language can thus get rid of the perfects.
I just have to study a bit how Latin preverbs work.
God damn it, you are just full of good ideas aren't you?
Be my guest!

We will see if my project gets so far that we can compare.
Absolutely!

One thing however:

I don't believe many of Vulgar Latin's preverbs, i.e. re-, con- whatever were still productive, although maybe someone can correct me here. I like the idea of losing the perfect anyway.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Romlang Idea

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

Ælfwine wrote:
02 Dec 2019 00:45
I don't believe many of Vulgar Latin's preverbs, i.e. re-, con- whatever were still productive, although maybe someone can correct me here. I like the idea of losing the perfect anyway.
I'm pretty sure some of them at least occurred in individual Vulgar Latin derivations - especially ex- in the Eastern Romance languages, from what I've seen by browsing wiktionary. A few examples:

ad- (*adoclō, *adbracchiō, *admināciō)
dē- (*dēexcitō, *dēpānō, *derīpō)
con- (*combattō)
ex- (*excadeō, *excappō, *exfridō)
in- (*inclagō, *indulcēscō, *invitiō)
re- (*reexcaptō, *repoenitiō)
sub- (*surrūpō)

This suggests they were productive in early Vulgar Latin in at least some cases (either that or these are older unattested forms in which the prefixes are fossilised). It might imply that the speakers considered them separate elements. I've no idea if that means they could conceivably become productive enough to grammaticalise.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Romlang Idea

Post by Omzinesý »

VaptuantaDoi wrote:
02 Dec 2019 07:12
Ælfwine wrote:
02 Dec 2019 00:45
I don't believe many of Vulgar Latin's preverbs, i.e. re-, con- whatever were still productive, although maybe someone can correct me here. I like the idea of losing the perfect anyway.
I'm pretty sure some of them at least occurred in individual Vulgar Latin derivations - especially ex- in the Eastern Romance languages, from what I've seen by browsing wiktionary. A few examples:

ad- (*adoclō, *adbracchiō, *admināciō)
dē- (*dēexcitō, *dēpānō, *derīpō)
con- (*combattō)
ex- (*excadeō, *excappō, *exfridō)
in- (*inclagō, *indulcēscō, *invitiō)
re- (*reexcaptō, *repoenitiō)
sub- (*surrūpō)

This suggests they were productive in early Vulgar Latin in at least some cases (either that or these are older unattested forms in which the prefixes are fossilised). It might imply that the speakers considered them separate elements. I've no idea if that means they could conceivably become productive enough to grammaticalise.
It depends on what aspects of productivity we are speaking about.
I think there is no problem with the number of tokens.
My understanding is that semantically romance preverbs are vague and they rather code lexical meanings than any kinds of aspect.

But because some preverbs are already fused with the verb, I don't see it unlikely at all, that (an) aspectual(s) adverb/preposition does the same, even more if all contact languages have such.

My understanding of Hungarian preverbs is even worse though.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Random Note

Post by Omzinesý »

A note to be used in some lang.

Nouns agree their possessor.

If they have an article, they work as nouns:
The-house-my
'My house'

But if they don't have the article, they act as verbs:
I house-my
'I have a house'

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - Second Random Note

Post by Omzinesý »

A lang is VOS
TOPIC is explicitly marked.

V Y X-top 'X verbs Y.'
V Y-top X 'Y is verbed by Y.'

That is, information structure is marked by morphologically while semantic roles are marked by word order. Verb however agrees the agent, not the topic. There can also be clauses without an explicit topic marker.
I don't know how "naturalistic " that is. I have seen it in no language.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Speedlang

Post by Omzinesý »

Somebody once posted this consonant inventory in Random Phonemic Inventory Thread. I like it though it's quite SAE.

p t t͡s k <p t c k>
s x <s x>
z ɣ <z g>
m n <m n>
l ɾ <l r>
j w <j w>

Let vowels be 5 + central.
i ɨ u <i y u>
e o <e o>
ä <a>

Nouns:
Stem - possessor - definiteness/gender - case

Nominative does not have a definite marker unless it is possessed.

sel 'animal'

Possessive marker always appears with the definite marker

sel-k-i 'my animal'
sel-x-i 'your animal'
sel-p-i 'his/her animal'
sel-kik-i 'our animal'
sel-xix-i 'your animal'
sel-pip-i 'their animal'

The definite marker also codes gender
i 'masculine'
e 'neuter'
a 'feminine'

Indefinite Accusative is similar to Nominative.
Definite Accusative is also zero-marked but it has the Definite/Gender marker.

sel-i DEF.ACC 'animal'

Other cases have both definite and indefinite forms

sel-on DAT.INDEF 'to an animal'
sel-i-n DAT.DEF 'to the animal'

sel-ot LOC.INDEF 'in an animal'
sel-i-t LOC.DEF 'in the animal'

sel-pa ABL.INDEF 'from an animal'
sel-i-pa ABL.DEF 'from the animal'

sel-ox ESS.INDEF 'is an animal'
sel-i-x ESS.DEF 'is the animal'

Comitative and Abessive markers however appear around the definite marker.

sel-ux COM.INDEF 'with an animal'
sel-uw<i>x COM.DEF 'with the animal'

sel-pax ABESS.INDEF 'without an animal'
sel-p<i>x ABESS.DEF 'without the animal'

Vebs will maybe come later or not.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Random Note

Post by Omzinesý »

I've been thinking about Saami consonant gradations. This is an idea of consonant gradations based on them.

Single consonants are geminated: p - pp, z - zz, ll - ll
The fist component of geminated plosives is lengthened and voiced: tt - ddt <dt>, kk - ggk <gk>. There may be a short vowel element between the voiced and voiceless components.
The fist element of a consonant cluster can be nasal, liquid, or voiceless fricative. That firts component is also lengthened and voiced.
nt - nnt <n.t>, lt - llt <l.t>, st - zzt <zt>

The grade mentioned first (the shorter one) can also appear word-initially.

tast - tasta - tazta, #tazt
talt - talta - tal.ta, #tal.t

The consonant-final form mostly appears as the first component of a compound. In compounds more complex consonant clusters may appear. In them too, only the first consonant of the cluster is affected.
tast + talta => tasttalta - tazttalta
tast + trata => tasttrata - tazttrata
tata + pata => tatpata - tadpata

Allowed onset-consonants are C + liquid. In consonant gradation they behave like single consonants.
tastra - taztra

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Speedlang

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote:
09 Jan 2020 21:24
Somebody once posted this consonant inventory in Random Phonemic Inventory Thread. I like it though it's quite SAE.

p t t͡s k <p t c k>
s x <s x>
z ɣ <z g>
m n <m n>
l ɾ <l r>
j w <j w>

Let vowels be 5 + central.
i ɨ u <i y u>
e o <e o>
ä <a>

Nouns:
Stem - possessor - definiteness/gender - case

Nominative does not have a definite marker unless it is possessed.

sel 'animal'

Possessive marker always appears with the definite marker

sel-k-i 'my animal'
sel-x-i 'your animal'
sel-p-i 'his/her animal'
sel-kik-i 'our animal'
sel-xix-i 'your animal'
sel-pip-i 'their animal'

The definite marker also codes gender
i 'masculine'
e 'neuter'
a 'feminine'

Indefinite Accusative is similar to Nominative.
Definite Accusative is also zero-marked but it has the Definite/Gender marker.

sel-i DEF.ACC 'animal'

Other cases have both definite and indefinite forms

sel-on DAT.INDEF 'to an animal'
sel-i-n DAT.DEF 'to the animal'

sel-ot LOC.INDEF 'in an animal'
sel-i-t LOC.DEF 'in the animal'

sel-pa ABL.INDEF 'from an animal'
sel-i-pa ABL.DEF 'from the animal'

sel-ox ESS.INDEF 'is an animal'
sel-i-x ESS.DEF 'is the animal'

Comitative and Abessive markers however appear around the definite marker.

sel-ux COM.INDEF 'with an animal'
sel-uw<i>x COM.DEF 'with the animal'

sel-pax ABESS.INDEF 'without an animal'
sel-p<i>x ABESS.DEF 'without the animal'

Vebs will maybe come later or not.
I add a suprasegmental feature ATR. It affects both vowels and consonants. Words are either plus or minus ATR. High vowels merge with mid-vowels, when +ATR.
t͡s only appears in -ATR words.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Coptic-style grammar

Post by Omzinesý »

NOUNS

Two genders: masculine & feminine, and plural that does not have gender distinction
Two states: absolute and construct
Any noun can be made a predicate for copular clauses

Absolute state
lem 'a parent'
p(a)lem 'the father'
t(a)lem 'a mother'
walem 'the parents'

Construct state
pulem '(the) father of ...'
tulem '(the) mother of ...'
wulem '(the) parents of ...'

puxlem 'my father'
puzlem 'your father'
puplem 'his father'
putlem 'her father'
punlem 'uor father'
putulem 'your father'
puwlem 'their father'

Copular clauses are made with prefix i-
xilem 'I am a parent'
zilem 'you are a parent'
pilem 'he is a father'
tilem 'she is a mother'
nilem 'we are parents'
twilem 'you are parents'
wilem 'they are parents'


VERBS

Two aspects: Habitual and Nonhabitual
Statives are often derived
Person agreement in some syntactic constructions

Habitual marker is the same as that of copula
ikot 'build(s)' in some non-agreeing syntactic constructions
xikot 'I build'
zikot 'your build'
pikot 'he builds'
tikot 'she builds'
nikot 'we build'
twikot 'you build'
wikot 'they build'

Nonhabitual
kot 'built/am/are/is building' in some non-agreeing syntactic constructions
xakot 'I built/am building'
zakot 'your built/are building'
pakot 'he built/is building'
takot 'she built/is building'
nakot 'we built/are building'
twakot 'you built/are building'
wakot 'they built/are building'

Statives are formed by ablaut, as well as action nominals.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

p t t͡s t͡ɬ k q ʔ
b d g
f s ɬ χ h
m n ŋ ɴ
pm tn kŋ qɴ
l j
tl cj

i u
e o
ɛ ɔ
a
+ a short schwa

iu, au, eu

Phonotactics: SCVSC where S stands for a fricative.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Let's suppose a culture admits the fact that human is an animal and they are not antonyms.

The word for animal would logically be nonhuman.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Phoneme inventories again

Consonants
p t k t͡s (t͡ɕ) k q
v s (ɕ)
m n
l r
j

Vowels:
ʲi, ɨ, u
ʲe, e, o
ä

/ʲi/ and /ʲe/ palatalize the preceding vowel. It should be seen as a feature of the vowel because it only appears before the two vowels.
/t͡s/ and ɕ/ palatalize to t͡ɕ and ɕ respectively, but t͡ɕ and ɕ can also appear as codas, i.e. phonemically.

Basically the West-Slavic system of palatalization.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

And another phoneme inventory

p' t' s'~t͡s' k' q'
pʰ tʰ sʰ~t͡sʰ kʰ qʰ
p t s~t͡s k q ʔ
h
β ð z ɣ ʁ (usually intervocally)
m n
r l
j w

i u
e o
ɛ ɔ
ä

Vowels can be long, which is a reflex of compensatory lengthening from a sonorant.

Phonotactics
(C)(C)V(C)
But
- only allowed onset consonant clusters are {plosive, sibilant, nasal} + {liquid, semivowel(?)}
- only allowed codas are {p̚ t̚ k̚ ʔ̚ h} (h being a reflex of /s/}

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Idea: split alignment based on topicality of the noun

The language has a special topic marker.
If the NP is marked as Topic, its case is Nominative, Accusative (or some other case).
If the NP is not marker as Topic, its case is Absolutive, Ergative (or some other case).

Typically, the transitive subject is marked as Topic and appears in zero-marked Nominative and the transitive object is not marked as Topic and appears in zero-marked absolutive. Economical!

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

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Idea:

The phoneme inventory takes inspiration from Modern Greek and the morphology takes inspiration from Estonian.

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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Note: Estonian ilus 'beautiful' is derived from ilu 'beauty'. -s is also Inessive marker thus

"Ma olen ilus." can either be analyzed as 'I am (a) beautiful.' or 'I am in beauty.'

That could be generalized in a conlang.

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