Omzinian Scrap thread

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote: 24 May 2021 02:02 Ideas for a lang where I wanna avoid SAEisms

- nouns and monovalent verbs are one class (generic/verby vs. non-generic/nouny marked with article)
- bivalent verbs mark voice (direct, inverse, reflexive)
- no tense but realis but irrealis moods
- bunch of aspectual clitics that are semantically 'optional'
- head marking

- many stop-fricative clusters like /kf/
- pitch accent (Every word (by definition) has a domain of high-tone syllables. aááa is allowed but áaaá is not. A glottal stop may appear as a suprasegmental feature on the right edge of the high-tone doman.

i ɯ u
ɛ ʌ ɔ
Back-vowels have a harmony where only rounded or unrounded ones appear in one word (or maybe some sequence in a word).
Vowels can be short or long (phonemically two vowels). Rising diphthongs ɛi, ɔu, ʌɯ also appear.



(1) p t k q
(2) f θ s ɬ x χ
(3) ʋ ð̞ l ɣ̞ ʁ
(4) m n ŋ ɴ
(5) ʋ̃ ð̞̃ l̃ ɣ̞̃ ʁ̃
Nasal approximants nasalize the following vowel, which is the main phonetic feature to recognize them.
Allowed clusters are (1)(2), (1)(3), (4)(5).
monovanlent words

(1) 'The boy is running.'
pógó tsitéa
pógo-´ tsitéa-`
run(er)-PREDICATE (is_)boy-PARTICIPANT

(2) 'The one running is a boy.'
tsitéá pógo
tsítéa-´ pógo-`
run(er)-PARTICIPANT (is_)boy-PREDICATE

They must be able to work as modifiers of participants ('N who is a boy,' and 'N related to the boy'/'N of the boy'), too. That has some other (tonal?) change. If all those distinctions are marked suprasegmentally, there must be some other means than just pitch accent. Maybe I could go a bit towards Semitic vowel alternations, but not too much.
There are aspect markers and modality/polarity markers. Aspect markers can well be clitics appearing in the end of the first word, but modality/polarity markers could be more "verby". Maybe they always appear in the end of the predicate.

-------------------------

Suprasegmental features
There are four suprasegmental features. They are mostly inflectional/derivational, but the first low-pitch domain is often lexically determined.

1) High-pitch domain
2) Glottalization
3) Nasalization
4) Vowel reduction

1) High-pitch domain

This lang can be described as a pitch-accent system.
There are two levels of pitch: high <á> and low <a> or <à>. Every vowel has one.
The high-pitch vowels appear in a domain that can be one or more segments long. There can be low-pitch domains in the beginning and in the end of the word. So the word stucture od domains is: (low-pitch domain) high-pitch domain (low-pitch domain).Every pitch domain can be one or more vowels long. Especially, predicates are long in this language, so the domains are often long too.
tsitéá has a low pitch-domain on tsi and a high-pitch domain on téá.
tsítéa has a low pitch-domain on tsi, a high-pitch domain on , and a low-pitch domain on a.

2) Glottalization

Glottalization is surely the easiest of the suprasegmental features. It is a binary feature of every word. There can be a glottal stop in the end of the high-pitch domain. Glottalization is marked with the circumflex on the last vowel of the high-pitch domain, <â>.
mógûpla

3) Nasalization

Every domain is either nasal or oral. Nasalization is not as limited as pitches. A three-domain word can have any of the eight combinations of nasalization: OOO; OON, ONO, NOO; ONN, NON, NNO; NNN. Non-nasal domains are far more frequent, though. I'm not sure how to mark nasalization. The easiest way could be just <n> in the end of a nasal domain.

4) Vowel reduction

This is the suprasegmental feature I have though least about. The basic vowel phoneme inventory is:
i ɯ u
ɛ ʌ ɔ (probably near-low rather than mid-low)

All vowels can be reduced to the corresponding mid vowel: e̞, ɤ̞, o̞. That is, vowel height is reduced (or according to an alternative analyses, a third height added). It could be that vowel reduction can only appear in low-pitch domains. Reduction could thus be marked with gravis and no accent. It remains to be seen if reduced or non-reduced vowel is the more frequent one and thus left without gravis.

5) Vowel rounding harmony

Vowel rounding harmony can be seen as the fifth suprasegmental feature, but it is not based on the domains. A word cannot have both rounded and unrounded back-vowels.

How to call the domains?
pre-stress domain, stress-domain, post-stress domain (It is not a stress accent but stress is a handy word)?
pre-peak domain, peak-domain, post-peak domain (domains are more than just high pitch though)?
first low-pitch domain, high-pitch domain, second low-pitch domain (even more emphasizes pitch)?
first domain, second domain, third domain (all words don't have three domains, and thus second domain can be first, which is messy)?
Ideas?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4397
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Creyeditor »

Wow, that looks really cool. This is really an innovative and original of supresegmental conlanging.

I like peak-domain best amongst your proposals, since pitch is not the only feature that can have a peak. Another idea I head was head-domain, because you could think of this as the main domain in the word. After all it is the only domain that is strictly necessary. Other ideas:
  • onset domain, nuclear domain and coda domain (analogous to syllables)
  • left domain, centre domain, right domain (boring but correct)
  • pre-accent domain, accent domain, post-accent domain
  • initial domain, medial domain, final domain (again boring)
  • weak domain, strong domain, appendix (based on some syllable/stress theories)
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Creyeditor wrote: 31 May 2021 22:37 Wow, that looks really cool. This is really an innovative and original of supresegmental conlanging.

I like peak-domain best amongst your proposals, since pitch is not the only feature that can have a peak. Another idea I head was head-domain, because you could think of this as the main domain in the word. After all it is the only domain that is strictly necessary. Other ideas:
  • onset domain, nuclear domain and coda domain (analogous to syllables)
  • left domain, centre domain, right domain (boring but correct)
  • pre-accent domain, accent domain, post-accent domain
  • initial domain, medial domain, final domain (again boring)
  • weak domain, strong domain, appendix (based on some syllable/stress theories)
Peak is probably best of what I proposed.
Of your proposals ,I also like accent domain. Accent is vague enough.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

More systematically presenting the suprasegmentals above

Code: Select all

		Spreads to	In peak		In non-peak	  
		the whole 	domain only	domain only	
		domain 						
High pitch	YES		YES 		NO
Low pitch	YES		NO		YES
Nasalization 	YES	 	NO		NO
Glottal stop  	NO		?*		NO
Vowel reduction NO		NO		YES
Vowel harmony	-		NO		NO

*The glottal stop is a possible border-line effect between the peak domain and the post-peak domain. 
Vowel harmony affects words, not just domain.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4397
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Creyeditor »

Vowel harmony should probably be YES*, for "spreads to the whole domain". It does spread through the domain and it goes on beyond it.

Also the glottal step could have YES* for "in peak domain only". It can only occur at the end of the peak domain after all.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Theoretically, I agree with you, but I think one gets a better intuition out of the table if I don't give glottal stop and vowel harmony a value in a category that does not specify them well.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - Project something Phonology

Post by Omzinesý »

(C)V(V)

p t k ʔ
m n
m' n'
s h
ɾ ɟ (intervocally only)
j w
j' w'

<p t k '>
<m n>
<m̂ n̂>
<r j>
<z h>
<y w>
<ŷ ŵ>



Some kind of a consonant gradation:
Strong - Weak
p - w
t - r
k - ɟ ~ w
ʔ - h
s - h
m' - m
n' - n
j' - j
w' - w


Basic 5-vowel system

Short
i u
e o
a

Long
ii uu
ei eu oi ou
ee oo
ai au
ae ao
aa
Last edited by Omzinesý on 20 Jun 2021 11:27, edited 1 time in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - Project something Syntax

Post by Omzinesý »

The transitive construction

V Abs Erg

U soke i paju k-a hetaika
PERFVE kill INDEF cat ERG-DEF hunter
'The hunter killed a cat.'

Antipassive is formed by incorporating "noi" thing.

U soke-noi a hetekai
PERFVE kill-ANTIP DEF hunter
'The hunter killed.'

A passive/anticausative is just the clause without the ergative argument.

U soke i paju.
PERFVE kill INDEF cat
'The cat was killed/died.'

Other constructions:
V Abs Argument

Noosa a hetekai t-i paju
love DEF hunter about-INDEF cat
'The hunter loves the cat.'
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - Project something Word classes

Post by Omzinesý »

Nouns

No obligatory morphology.
Three articles: i 'indefinite', a 'definite', o 'proper noun', u 'definite because of another noun, usually possessed' Generic nouns probably without article.

a paju 'the cat'
i paju 'the cat'
o paju 'Cat'
u paju 'her cat'

This is a good lang for testing Manchu sound symbolism of gender. Words referring to males often have o and u, while words referring to females often have e and i. a is neutral.

'osu 'father' - 'esi 'mother'
maomao 'boy' - maemae 'girl'

Nouns can appear both as participants and predicates, (1). They differ from verbs in that they have no aspect morphology.

(1)
Maomao a hetekai.
boy DEF hunter
'The hunter is a boy.'

Nouns can even have arguments, (2b).

(2a)
Noosa a hetekai
love DEF hunter
'The hunter is in love

(2b)
Noosa a hetekai t-a poju.
love DEF hunter OBL-DEF cat
'The hunter loves the cat.'

The nominal modifier follows its head noun. The modifier has the strong grade, if possible.
(3)
poju ôku
poju ôju.GRADE
cat man.GEN
'The man's cat'


Verbs

Verbs always have two morphological aspect forms: Momentous and Habitual. The first vowel is usually short in Momentous and long in Habitual.

soke 'killed'
sooke 'usually kills, is a killer'

Habitual is like nouns. It can work both as an argument and as a predicate. It describes the action/process as static or at least continuous.

Momentous expresses the action/process unique.

Adjectives

A closed class. Appear before their head noun. Cannot appear as predicatives.

i kii paju 'a small cat'




Adpositions
Last edited by Omzinesý on 25 Jun 2021 20:54, edited 3 times in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Titus Flavius
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 142
Joined: 13 Apr 2021 14:53
Location: Poland

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Titus Flavius »

(1) 'The boy is running.'
pógó tsitéa
pógo-´ tsitéa-`
run(er)-PREDICATE (is_)boy-PARTICIPANT

(2) 'The one running is a boy.'
tsitéá pógo
tsítéa-´ pógo-`
run(er)-PARTICIPANT (is_)boy-PREDICATE
I haven't seen it before cause I hadn't much time for browsing cbb, but it's very similar to my idea from a month ago! In that my conlang I simply treated nouns as monovalent verbs, as in it.
It's funny that two unrelated conlangs created at the same time can have such similar or identical constructions.
ω - near-close near-back unrounded vowel.
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Titus Flavius wrote: 20 Jun 2021 13:03
(1) 'The boy is running.'
pógó tsitéa
pógo-´ tsitéa-`
run(er)-PREDICATE (is_)boy-PARTICIPANT

(2) 'The one running is a boy.'
tsitéá pógo
tsítéa-´ pógo-`
run(er)-PARTICIPANT (is_)boy-PREDICATE
I haven't seen it before cause I hadn't much time for browsing cbb, but it's very similar to my idea from a month ago! In that my conlang I simply treated nouns as monovalent verbs, as in it.
It's funny that two unrelated conlangs created at the same time can have such similar or identical constructions.
Somebody on the ZBB seemed to think about these questions as well.
A named my lang Kfadipqh and it has its own thread in conlangs section.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - Project something Syntax

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote: 20 Jun 2021 10:19 The transitive construction

V Abs Erg

U soke i paju k-a hetaika
PERFVE kill INDEF cat ERG-DEF hunter
'The hunter killed a cat.'

Antipassive is formed by incorporating "noi" thing.

U soke-noi a hetekai
PERFVE kill-ANTIP DEF hunter
'The hunter killed.'

A passive/anticausative is just the clause without the ergative argument.

U soke i paju.
PERFVE kill INDEF cat
'The cat was killed/died.'

Other constructions:
V Abs Argument

Noosa a hetekai t-i paju
love DEF hunter about-INDEF cat
'The hunter loves the cat.'
Back to this project

The interesting part in its syntax is that the transitive construction is only used of semantically transitive verbs. This "non-transitive construction" is probably more frequent. Formally, it only differs for the transitive construction in that the ergative preposition k- is replaced by t-, which i gloss 'about' but marks oblique arguments.

[Predicate] [Primary argument] t-[Secondary argument]

(1)
Heseeka a hetekai t-a paju.
think DEF hunter about-DEF cat
'The hunter is thinking about the cat.'

The t- argument is an object in the sense that it can be incorporated. Noi incorporation is not needed because the t- argument can be dropped, (1c).

(1b)
Heseeka-paju a hetekai.
think-cat DEF hunter
'The hunter is thinking about cats.'

("Heseeka-paju" may have some stem alternation because of incorporation. Morphology is not ready yet.)

(1c)
Heseeka a hetekai.
think DEF hunter
'The hunter is thinking.'

Perfective aspect, when it has some limited span of time or distance, is marked by particle/preposition woosa 'for'. In (2), woosa is an aspectual particle and, in (3) and (4), a preposition. The idea comes from Toki Pona vocative preposition/imperative particle o.

(2)
Heseeka woosa a hetekai t-a paju.
think PERFVE DEF hunter about-DEF cat
'The hunter is thinking about the cat, for a while.'

(3)
Heseeka woosa i kopa paura a hetekai t-a paju.
think DEF for three week hunter about-DEF cat
'The hunter is thinking about the cat for three weeks.'

(4)
Nûpi a paju woosa i kopa topijo.
run DEF cat for INDEF three T
'The can ran three topijos[=780 meters].'

Causativization can be done just by adding an ergative argument.
(5)
Heseeka a hetekai k-u-yomû t-a paju.
think DEF hunter ERG-POSS-spouse about-DEF cat
'His/her spouse made the hunter think about the cat.'

Ditranstitives, (6b), are similar to causatives.

(6a)
Yoho a maemae t-a waaliya.
get DEF girl OBL-DEF money
'The girl got the money.'

(6b)
Yoho u tipiri k-a êsi t-a waaliya.
get POSS daughter ERG-DEF mother OBL-DEF money
'Mother gave the money to her daughter.'


Transitive constructions cannot be causativized that way. One clause cannot have two ergative arguments.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 25 Jun 2021 20:24, edited 4 times in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

I also decided that the circumflex on a vowel will mark that the preceding consonant is glottalic.

m'a <mâ>
n'a <nâ>
j'a <yâ>
w'a <wâ>

The same is dome for /ʔ/.

ʔa <â>
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Consonant gradation

The main function of consonant gradation is to mark genitives and modifying roots of compounds. The two only differ in compounds having one stress and NPs with a genitive modifier having two.

In genitive, the following consonants are changed
j => k
r => t
(If r or j are followed by a long vowel/diphthong, they don't (usually) change.)
m => m^
n => n^
y => y^
w => w^
(something with /s/ and /h/?)
The other consonants are not affected.

paju 'cat'
ôju 'man'

paju ôku 'man's cat'
ôju paku 'cat's man'

Historically, /t/ and fron-vocalic /k/ following the stressed syllable were lenited to /ɾ/ <r> and /ɟ/ <j>, respectively.
There was a genitive suffix, -wa, which was later omitted. Penultimate stressing still applied but the gradation rule did not.

páku => paju
pakúwa => páku

Glottalization of the resonants in the genitive was just analogical.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

A Pseudo-Germanic lang

One of my favoutite consonant inventories, which I didn't make myself but somebody posted in Random Phonologies thread years ago.
p t̪ t͡s k
m n ŋ
s x
z ɣ
l ɾ (or possibly ʀ)
ʋ j

Hungurian-ish vowels
y i u
ø e o
ä
Vowels are either long or short (still considering if it affects quality)
Normal voice or creaky voice. (Creaky voice always with vowel-initial words ála German, where the glottal stop seems to often realize that way.)
(I'm not sure if length and phonation distinctions can co-appear or if one is neutralized ála Danish.)

Nouns
Two genders: Fem Masc + Plural, where gender is neutralized.
Two noun cases: Nominative and Obliques (Accusative-Dative, double object).
Geninitive could be formed with a kind of Idaafa: [possessed][article[possessor]], "house the man".

Case and gender appear in the article (and somewhat in adjective attributes):
DEF.M.NOM, DEF.F.NOM, DEF.PL.NOM
DEF.M.OBL, DEF.F.OBL, DEF.PL.OBL
INDEF.M.NOM, INDEF.F.NOM, INDEF.PL.NOM
INDEF.M.OBL, INDEF.F.OBL, INDEF.PL.OBL

In the possession construction, the article has the case and number of the possessor but the case of the whole NP/possessed.

Location prepositions express direction with Oblique and place with Nominative, ála Esperanto.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

The same problem as always with these pseudo a-posteriori langs. I start thinking if this still could be historically derived!
Phonologically it's surely possible but to find a social context where a SAE lang loses voiced stops!
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

p t k͡p k
ɓ ɗ
β? ɹ w
m n
s

i ĩ ɨ ɨ̃ u ũ
ə
a ã

Phonotactics
(C)V(C)
The coda is always a voiceles stop or /s/.

Stress on the penultimate syllable if it is closed.
Stress on the ultimate syllable if the penultimate syllable is open.

Mainly agglutinative (Adding schwa to C_CV# to move stress to the last syllable is kind process morphology.)
Head marking
Fluid intransitive marking on cross-referencing in the verb.
Mood-prominent (no tense or aspect), evidentiality
Converbs
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

I read about Estonian syllable length and stressing and am quite fascinated.
I must make a lang that utilizes length as a marker of morphological forms.

I think I cannot stuck it to any of my old langs.

But I leave this as a note to myself.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
teotlxixtli
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 63
Joined: 05 Jan 2021 04:37

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by teotlxixtli »

Omzinesý wrote: 08 Jul 2021 22:04 I read about Estonian syllable length and stressing and am quite fascinated.
I must make a lang that utilizes length as a marker of morphological forms.

I think I cannot stuck it to any of my old langs.

But I leave this as a note to myself.
Do you also plan on including three degrees of distinguished length (short, long, and overlong)? I’ve tinkered with the idea in some of my unfinished work but I haven’t seen it fully realized myself
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3220
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

teotlxixtli wrote: 09 Jul 2021 01:28
Omzinesý wrote: 08 Jul 2021 22:04 I read about Estonian syllable length and stressing and am quite fascinated.
I must make a lang that utilizes length as a marker of morphological forms.

I think I cannot stuck it to any of my old langs.

But I leave this as a note to myself.
Do you also plan on including three degrees of distinguished length (short, long, and overlong)? I’ve tinkered with the idea in some of my unfinished work but I haven’t seen it fully realized myself
My current understanding is that the distinction between Estonian Q2 and Q3 (whichever is the marked one) is rather tone and the length ratio of the syllable and the syllable following it in the same foot. I don't still understand the system, enough.
I'm considering if similar ideas could be used in lang with (pen)ultimate stressing. But that couldn't have so much fun stuff with secondary stresses. IDK. I have no lang ATM.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Post Reply