Rhûnido

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Ilocar
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Rhûnido

Post by Ilocar »

Not sure how much I should put on here, I could literally go on forever about Rhûnido.

Background(in world):
Archaic Rhûnido is the language of a group of humans who inhabited the fertile Middle East from around 200,000 ya to around 14,000 ya, They were, genetically speaking, human, however, due to intervention from a certain group of Celestial beings, these particular humans gained immortality and the ability to cast magic, the simple early-human language they once spoke quickly gained new words and categories that more primitive varieties of Homo Sapiens could hardly comprehend. These Immortals, quickly took over the plentiful region and set up a complex system of government and social stratification, based on how magically powerful one was, thus the mortal mundanes had almost no say in the day-to-day goings on.

Because the Immortals lived on indefinitely, Rhûnido underwent very little change among them, however among the mortal humans it changed into indistinguishable forms fairly quickly. this led to heavy borrow, just for the sake of mutually intelligibility. the older archaic forms were embellished and became part of a separate set of "poetic" words, many still exist.

When various problems, including extended warfare and natural disasters, cause the Immortals and all other magicals to flee to a new and separate world, they brought their language with them, along with their self-important attitude. Though the language had been kept alive by constant borrowing in the past, the speakers still preferred to synthesize new words, and without any source for borrowings left, thats all they could do to describe all the new flora, fauna, and whatever else they came across.

The Immortals, gradually began to lead shorter and shorter lives while they population diffused some and the language sundered into two major groups. from that point on Rhûnido was a Classical language, though it is somewhat intelligible with its more direct descendants the Vaniric languages, the Sharkovic languages quickly simplified and rethought the lexicon in as many ways as there were people forming groups.

Phonology

Stops
< p t k ǩ b d g ǧ ' >
/ p t k c b d g Ɉ Ɂ /
Taps
< r l >
/ ɾ ɺ /
Sonorants:
< m n (V)r (V)l >
/ m n ɹ l /
Fricatives
< ph f th s lh š rh h bh v dh z ž x >
/ ɸ f θ s ɬ ɕ ʂ h β v ð z ʑ ɣ /
Approximants
< w y (V)r (V)l >
/ w j ɹ l /
Aspirants
< pḥ tḥ kḥ ǩḥ bḥ dḥ gḥ ǧḥ mḥ nḥ rḥ lḥ >
/ pʰ tʰ kʰ cʰ bʰ dʰ gʰ Ɉʰ mʰ nʰ ɾʰ ɺʰ /
Ejectives(thought of as aspirant)
< sḥ >
/ sʼ /
Affricates
< ts c tl dz j dl >
/ ts tɕ tɬ dz dʑ dɮ /
Short Vowels:
< a a e ë i o o u â â ê yë ô ô û ai au oi âi âu ôi >
/ä ɐ ɛ e i o ɔ u jä jɐ jɛ je jo jɔ ju aj aʊ oj jaj jaʊ joj / (a is /ä/ when stressed, /ɐ/ when not. o is /o/ when stressed, /ɔ/ when not)
Long Vowels:
< ā ē ī ō ū yā yē yō yū āi āu ōi yāi yāu yōi >
/ä: e: i: o: u: jä: je: jo: ju: a:j a:ʊ o:j ja:j ja:ʊ jo:j /

Phonotactics:
These can get a little complicated, but the simple way of thinking about it is:

Syllable: CCVCC or simpler

Aspirated consonants (and sḥ) can only be at the beginning of a syllable and cannot be immediately followed by another consonant or even a palatal vowel
Affricates follow the same rule, except they can be followed by a palatal vowel
Fricatives follow the same rule as Affricates, but can come immediately after a stop and can be syllable-final
Unaspirated Stops have arbitrary clustering rules at the beginning, but cannot be accompanied in the syllable coda by anything other than a sonorant
<s> and <š> may precede any single vowel or vowel-sonorant cluster, an initial <e> inserts itself before a cluster of 3 consonants formed this way
<š> before a vowel-sonorant cluster becomes <es>
<'> only exists as a vowel intermediary and is sometimes replaced by <x> which serves nearly the same purpose
other than being between vowels <x> can be the initial phoneme of a syllable, but cannot be followed or preceded by any other consonants
<x> can only be preceded by <r> or <l> in the coda, and cannot be followed by anything
<y> is almost completely absorbed into the Rhûnido vowel system, it cannot precede i or any palatal vowel and cannot be in the coda at all
<w> can go anywhere <y> can, except it cannot follow a tap or affricate
In the syllable-initial cluster, taps can follow any consonant, except <n>, <l>, <r>, <ph>, <bh>, <rh>, and <lh> (except for Affricates and Aspirants, obviously)
in the coda, taps become sonorants <r> and <l> and can be followed by any consonant that is allowed to end the syllable
(-rl, -rn, -rm, and -ln are the only acceptable sonorant clusters in the coda)
<n> and <m> become stops at the begining of a syllable (mr-, dn-, gn-, mn-, sm-, sn-, šm-, šn-) are the only acceptable clusters with <m> and/or <n>
(sp-, st-, sk-, sǩ-, espr-, estr-, eskr-, espl-, eskl-, šp-, št-, šk-, ps-, ks-, dhr-, thr-) are all acceptable
(ǩr-, ǩl-, rhr-, lhr-, rhl-, lhl-, phr-, phl-, bhr-, bhl-, sr-, šr-, cr-, jr-, xl-) are all not acceptable
(zr-, žr-, zl-, žl-, xr-) are extremely rare, but do happen
<xr> and <xl> tend to assimilate to <rh> and <lh>
(ph-, bh-, th-, dh-, lh-, rh-, and h-) are never preceded by other consonants, and of them only <th> and <dh> can by syllable-final (and its very uncommon)
(pf-, tf-, kf-, ǩf-, bv-, dv-, gv-, and ǧv-) don't happen
<p(F)> tends to be replaced by <ps>
<t(F)> tends to be replaced by <ts>
<k(F)> tends to be replaced by <ks>
<ǩ(F)> tends to be replaced by <ǩ> or <ks>
<(C)v> tends to be replaced by <(C)w>
CCVVCC is interpreted as two syllables CCV and VCC, sometimes a <'>, <x>, <dh>, or <bh> is inserted between them
(-(V)s, -(V)š, -(V)d, -(V)t, -(V)k, -(V)l, -(V)r, -(V)th, -(V)sk, -(V)n, -(V)m, -(V)z -(V)g, -(V)x, -(V)dh, and -(V)) are the most common word-endings
<ǩ> and <ǧ> cannot be word final (-ǩ, -ǧ) become (-ǩi, -ǧi)
(-ps and -ks) do not happen.

Morphology and Syntax(basic over-view):
Rhûnido is a synthetic language that is largely agglutinating with a few inflections on verbs. (optional markings for tense and person as well as a few aspect and mood inflections) it is largely prefixing, but has many suffixes as well

Rhûnido has Split Ergativity. in the active voice, it has Accusative alignment, but in the passive voice it has Ergative alignment. In fact, the use of the absolutive prefix is how the passive voice is formed in Rhûnido. This system can become complicated, it is likely an eroded form of Archaic Rhûnido's tripartite alignment.

Rhûnido's word order is Verb-final, but otherwise free, however, without case-marking prefixes, the order defaults to SOV, as such it is also post-positional, with a few odd-ball prepositions.
Nominal clauses are head noun final.

There is no morphological difference between adjectives and adverbs, they are all agglutinating particles, whether they agglutinate onto a noun, adjective, verb, or adposition determines their part of speech.

An adverb stem can be left isolated after a verbal clause like a post-positional modifier
Rhûnido will eventually have a gender system, dividing words into five categories (Celestial, Domestic, Terrestrial, Thalassic, and Cthonic) the genders are not necessarily a description of the noun, and changing a noun's tail to be characteristic of a different gender is fairly common as a poetic device.
In addition to Rhûnido's grammatical genders: masculine, feminine and neuter endings can be added for specificity or poetic effect. I call these "Cast" endings
adjectives can, rather than being agglutinated onto the noun, have gender and cast endings added to them to agree with the noun or a general ending can be applied that doesn't imply connection to any of the genders or casts (this is often used when being circuitous, polite, or PC)
In addition to this Rhûnido has eleven definite articles which correspond to the genders and casts, and four others (for abstract nouns, Composite nouns, animate nouns, and inanimate nouns respectively) the last four are usually the only ones still in use (though uncommon) outside poetry, where the implications of connection to a certain gender or cast is used poetically, and thus they act more like weak adjectives

Verbs are marked for mood (interrogative, jussive, conditional, potential, negative, and obligative), Aspect (Gnomic, Prospective, Progressive, Perfect, Imperfect, Recentive, intensive, and participle/gerundive), and optionally for tense (distant past, past, present, and future) and person (0, 1s, 2s, 3s, 1p(exclusive), 1p(inclusive direct address), 1p(exclusive), 2p(direct address), 2p, and 3p). the distant past is used more often than any other tense-marking, while past, present, and future are often either ignored or expressed via aspect-marking as perfect, progressive, and prospective respectively. the first and second person plural ending for direct address are for when all members of "you" or "us" are currently being addressed. the 0-person ending is used to emphasize general-ness and corresponds to the English "one does." verbs are also marked with entirely separate endings in poetry and stories. The poetic inflections are much older forms preserved specifically for this purpose.

there are four grammatical numbers in Rhûnido: singular, dual, plural, and collective. in informal speech it is usually unnecessary to use gendered ending except when you want to emphasize that there were exactly two (dual), or when speaking about all of some thing, or an entire group (Collective). Collectives are essential, however, since the abstract form of a noun is expressed using the collective.

all numerals have three forms: a stem, which is inflected to form various numerical adjectives, a relational, which is used specifically for the abstract concept of the number itself, and for mathematical discourse, and an inflection, which serves as a suffix representing a kinda of pseudo-grammatical number marking

Rhûnido has a base-20 number system, and larger numbers are all factors of 10,000. additionally, Rhûnido uses two systems for forming fractions: the sexagesimal system and the Egyptian system.

Rhûnido uses several sentence finalizers to mark evidentiality. They are eroded forms of earlier idiomatic expressions that have lost their meaning other than as purely markers of evidentiality, they alll are one syllable with an optional ye in between them and the end of the verb. ye normally denotes causal connection between clauses (such as "He Verbs to Verb" or "He verbs so he can Verb"), but it is derrived from an older auxiliary that meant "and," and which is also the ancestor of the modern particle ha, which functions in somewhat similar fashion (used to form composive verbs "to Verb and Verb"), but is more commonly used as a post-postion marking a dependant clause ( such as "that Verbs"), ha is used in place of ye in evidentiality markers in some dialects.
Last edited by Ilocar on 13 Jun 2013 15:51, edited 2 times in total.
Rhûnido, my conlang :)
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Re: Rhûnido

Post by Ilocar »

Sample Texts:
There are a few samples floating around the boards, but I'll post a few here as well, including

The Babel Text:

oda-seroi jo-tok-ido dugë-silisir, ye nam terát
dûr-yutis, oda-rukoi sabi-yom, lar-šinar ka-heǩra padë-lugnalir terát
"neržisi taǩë-muz-šentanžán-de" nën-sū-dë'iran terát
gau-rël neržaya ë gau-kimór luhum ek-šu'ë-gḥërian terát
"vāni tsa, lë-kusi ha zagar zaivunžán-de, kuš-ser, rëhona īn-taradri-ëm swël-ismanžán-de" nën-sū-dë'iran vurát
žëris dḥunari zaivu'i ha o-zagar kumë-vëdi tažna
"ilo-ruko ë ilo-ido mai-nde tažna
"tikadrian-sin, rëhona o-kesažna du-sū šegādrë vëdë-zu'ín-de tažna
"wirda, so-ido riǩatë-tarán-de ye rukoi nën-enwari narukadri-nde" žëris dë'i tažna
kuš-ser, žëris sū-tarir terát
ǩet zagar dixasë-mu-zaivuxu'ian tažna
rëhona zagar lar-babel ismisi ye
hëro, žëris o-ido oda-seroi riǩatir terát
dûr-hëro, kuš-ser, žëris oda-rukoi tarir, ye dug


(technically I should have used the poetic verb forms for this, but I hadn't made them when I first wrote this and there are some words that would probably need to be changed to write this in poetic style, so I decided to you the plain forms instead.)

My best attempt at a reading(Note: in line 9 I contracted -de ye => -dê, this is not a mistake, it's a feature of spoken Rhûnido. -i ye would become -ie, -ai ye would become -aye, and -oi ye would become -oye)

Simple Sentences:

silum šubarzi mëlinda o-nar-rëlnan pastó
"trying to help his friend made Rëlnan happy"

ta-kentra ama, nar-élhanan ek-gamó ha ka-kiǩa hen, túrina ë sabáx ë urda-velâ ë bolǧa karâ ë bitixa arâ ë vul-larilha ë ǩab-lurâ mo
"in the basket that Elhanan was taking to his mother's house was a small ham, a chicken, some green apples, a bag of nuts, two bottles of milk, seven yellow flowers and clean clothes"

(the names Rëlnan and Elhanan are approximate translations of the names Peter and John respectively)

Numbers

0 ena, ke-
1 ilo, i-
2 lham, -(s)a, lha-
3 xâz, -xâ, xâ-
4 dal, -(k)ti, da-
5 ho, -(i)lâ, ho-
6 sed, -(i)nâ, se-
7 šab, -(i)lha, ša-
8 het, -(i)nas, he-
9 nûn, -(n)ma,nû-
10 yun, -ûn, yu-
11 lel, -(l)el, le-
12 lhun, -lhun, lhu-
13 xûn, -xûn, xû-
14 ksal, -(k)sal, ksa-
15 hun, -xel, hu-
16 dlek, -dla, dle-
17 šun, -(š)ša, šu-
18 mel, -(n)da, me-
19 tol, -(i)mmu, dno-
20 kâl, -(i)ssa, kâ-
40 lhaza, -(i)lla, lâ-
60 xâza, -(i)zga, xâ-
80 hëza, -(i)ška, ëa-
100 nūd, -(i)dna, nū-
10,000 mūr, -wan,-van, mū-
100,000,000 kūr, -(o)ku, kū-
1,000,000,000,000 mil, -(i)co, mi-
Last edited by Ilocar on 14 Jun 2013 07:21, edited 8 times in total.
Rhûnido, my conlang :)
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Re: Rhûnido

Post by Omzinesý »

Is /s'/ the only ejective?
How did the language come to that?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: Rhûnido

Post by Omzinesý »

Ilocar wrote:
Verbs are marked for mood (interrogative, jussive, conditional, potential, negative, and obligative), Aspect (Gnomic, Prospective, Progressive, Perfect, Imperfect, Recentive, intensive, and participle/gerundive), and optionally for tense (distant past, past, present, and future) and person (0, 1s, 2s, 3s, 1p(exclusive), 1p(inclusive direct address), 1p(exclusive), 2p(direct address), 2p, and 3p). the distant past is used more often than any other tense-marking, while past, present, and future are often either ignored or expressed via aspect-marking as perfect, progressive, and prospective respectively. the first and second person plural ending for direct address are for when all members of "you" or "us" are currently being addressed. the 0-person ending is used to emphasize general-ness and corresponds to the English "one does." verbs are also marked with entirely separate endings in poetry and stories. The poetic inflections are much older forms preserved specifically for this purpose.
You could explain the aspects and moods. I don't understand all the terms. It's especially interesting how they work together.
there are four grammatical numbers in Rhûnido: singular, dual, plural, and collective. in informal speech it is usually unnecessary to use gendered ending except when you want to emphasize that there were exactly two (dual), or when speaking about all of some thing, or an entire group (Collective). Collectives are essential, however, since the abstract form of a noun is expressed using the collective.
Collective is a nice idea, but I have never got it work.
Is 'family' a collective of 'a family member'? How do you say "two families" then?
Is '(my tow) hands' collective or dual?
What is "the abstracy form"? Do you mean someting like 'manhood' or 'some water'?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: Rhûnido

Post by Ilocar »

Omzinesý wrote:Is /s'/ the only ejective?
How did the language come to that?
It was originally /sʰ/ but /s'/ was a common allophone which the speakers found easier to say, this phenomenon might have occurred to other Aspirated Fricatives, but they all were removed from the language.
Omzinesý wrote:You could explain the aspects and moods. I don't understand all the terms. It's especially interesting how they work together.
Gnomic: used for statements of universal truth like "birds fly" and "fish swim"
Prospective: it's used to talk about the future, kind of, the English equivalent is "to be going to do sth."
Progressive: used for continuous actions, English: "to be doing"
Perfect: used for complete actions, English: "to have done"
Imperfect: for habitual actions, English: "to usually do"
Recentive: used in conjunction with Prospective and Perfect, for actions were just completed or just about to begin "to be about to do" and "to have just eaten"
Intensive: used to strengthen or emphasize the meaning of the verb such as English: "to brutally kill," "to work hard," "to glaringly shine"
Participle/gerundive: forms an adjectival form, English: "doing," "done," "to do"(more like Latin supine, not the infinitive)
Interrogative: this mood is used for the head verb of and interrogative sentence(a question)
Jussive: hard to explain, it's most similar to imperative, see jussive, English "do" or "let's do" or "I will do"
Conditional: used for statements that have conditions to being true, English: "would be"
Potential: used for statements that are possible, but may or may not actually happen, English: "could be" or "can be"
Negative: used to negate (not to invert) the meaning of a verb, English "to not be"
Obligative: used for obligations as well as prophetic statements, if it has another argument with the instrumental case prefix, the Obligative becomes Causitive, English: "must do" or "to be made to do"

as for how they work together, it gets somewhat complicated. The Gnomic doesn't generally go with any other aspects or moods, except negative (to say something is generally not true), interrogative, and Conditional. Negative, Interrogative, and Conditional tend to work with every other Aspect and Mood, because Negative, Interrogative, and Logical sentences are extremely common and essential to Rhûnido discourse. the Jussive doesn't ever mix with anything besides the Negative and Recentive (used to say "do it now!") prospective, progressive, and perfect are highly contrasted and can't be put together (except in Rhûnido poetry where obscure and complex meaning is a method for aesthetic expression) The intensive goes with most other Aspects and Moods, and so does the Participle/Gerundive (to form an adjective version of the verb form like "being about to do" or "having not been")
Omzinesý wrote:Collective is a nice idea, but I have never got it work.
Is 'family' a collective of 'a family member'? How do you say "two families" then?
Is '(my tow) hands' collective or dual?
What is "the abstracy form"? Do you mean someting like 'manhood' or 'some water'?
"family" tanari, is the collective form of "relative" tana/tanar
to say "two groups of sth." such as "two families," the collective can be used as new root and have the dual ending added: tanarsa "two families"
the abstract form is used when you don't mean any specific example of a thing, the plural is used in English for the abstract and it often comes up in Gnomic sentences such as: "Birds fly" and "men are pigs" (in most cases in English a plural with no article is an abstract noun)
Rhûnido, my conlang :)
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Re: Rhûnido

Post by Ilocar »

Orthography and Prounciation:

so I realize it's not easy to read Rhûnido, even with all the information on how various characters are pronounced, because there are a couple things that weren't mentioned, so I'll go over those and some other topics in Rhûnido's orthography.

Rhûnido, as you can tell if you listen to the Babel Text reading(hopefully) has a combination of dynamic and pitch accenting. In common speech, the accented syllable is pronounced nearly identically to a long syllable (e being the exception, gets pronounced /ɛ:/), however, in words and phrases where a long-vowel is contrasted with the accent, the accent reverts to pitch-dynamic. Rhûnido inherited its accenting from its ancestor language which had 3 accents (rather than the 2 that Rhûnido now has) the "long" accent (for long vowels, marked by a macron), the "weak" accent (changes vowels pronunciation but not their pitch or volume, marked with a diarhesis, only preserved in ë), and the "strong" accent (changes the vowels pronunciation and pitch and/or volume, marked with an acute)

Archaic Rhûnido's weak and strong accents were conflated into the modern accent, which is clear in kennings (such as oda-seroi in the first line of the Babel Text reading) where the stressed syllables of affixed morphemes are weakly stressed and the stressed syllable of the main word is strongly stressed. This is often unclear, because Rhûnido is in the process of losing its weak vowels, Archaic Rhûnido had /ɐ ɛ ɪ ɔ ʊ/, but modern Rhûnido has lost /ɪ ʊ/ completely and speakers have no problems being understood when dropping /ɐ ɔ/ for their strong counterparts /ä o/

The only strange aspect of the orthography when it comes to accents is the use of the grave. it hasn't really come up yet, but the orthography uses the grave to mark syllables (such as the penultimate syllable) that would normally be stressed, but are not, this is used to avoid having to put two diacritics on one vowel

the last orthography issue is to do with the problem of doubled consonants, although I'm sure you've guessed by now what this means, it represents germinated consonants (or in laymen's terms: a consonant made longer or articulated twice). germinated consonants never show up at the beginning of words and in common speech, most germinated consonants (never -ss- or -šš-) are reduced to a single consonant (or glottal stop-consonant in the case of stops.) -rr- is always pronounced /ɹɾ/ in the main dialect but in many dialects it becomes /r/ instead.

Rhûnido's five stress rules:

1. The Penultimate (second to last) vowel is always stressed, at least weakly
2. Long vowels count as two vowels
3. The diphthongs ai, au, and oi only count as one
4. i doesn't count as a vowel if immediately followed by another vowel: ia, ie, io, iai, iau, ioi, ië and iu only count as one vowel
5. Long vowels are stressed strongly

Overview and Review:

vowels marked with a circumflex â ê ô û are pronounced with a y /j/ preceding them
vowels marked with a macron ā ē ī ō ū are pronounced for twice as long
vowels marked with an acute á é í ó ú are stressed, this is only needed for words that do not follow Rhûnido's five stress rules
vowels marked with a grave à è ì ò ù are not stressed, this is used only on syllables that should be stressed by the five rules and only when the stressed syllable is ë, â, ê, ô, or û
doubled consonants are germinated, except -rr- which is pronounced /ɹɾ/
Rhûnido, my conlang :)
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Re: Rhûnido

Post by Harkani »

well, apart from the orthography being atrocious (I mean, it's worse than MINE), I like it! Your reading of your language is articulate, and the phonology is well thought-out in relation to mine. However, allow me to give a couple of criticisms...

*using a circumflex for /ja/ is unnecessary complication of the orthography
*why is figuring out if an r is /ɾ/ or /ɹ/ so difficult with your orthography?
*your single ejective seems out of place. You claim it's because /sʰ/ was harder to pronounce, so they defaulted to /s'/, but I don't think that's quite realistic...

Regardless, I like it so far. I'd like to see more of your translations and see just how this language works.
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Re: Rhûnido

Post by Ilocar »

Harkani wrote:well, apart from the orthography being atrocious
That's a matter of opinion, I happen to like my orthography, what exactly about it do you dislike?
Harkani wrote:Your reading of your language is articulate
thank you! it was alot of work
Harkani wrote:*using a circumflex for /ja/ is unnecessary complication of the orthography
I use the circumflex to keep words shorter, using y wouldn't really change anything and I do in some of the descendant languages, but mostly its an aesthetic choice because I really couldn't bear to look at my conlang if its name was Rhyunido, it looks weird, maybe thats because I'm so used to the circumflex by now, but I don't think I'll get id of it, simple because I'm used to it, but I do agree that you're right, it is technically unnecessary.
Harkani wrote:*why is figuring out if an r is /ɾ/ or /ɹ/ so difficult with your orthography?
I thought it was fairly straight-forward, r is /ɾ/ at the begining of a syllable and after consonants, and /ɹ/ after vowels
Harkani wrote:*your single ejective seems out of place. You claim it's because /sʰ/ was harder to pronounce, so they defaulted to /s'/, but I don't think that's quite realistic...
well, whenever I pronounce /sʰ/ in a syllable, esspecially if it's stressed, I naturally want to shorten the sound, and when I do it ends up alot like an ejective, so I just decided to put it in, originally it was an allophone(as are the several other ejectives to their aspirated counterparts), but I felt, that since I have an easier time pronouncing it as an ejective, so would the speakers. I don't pretend to try and make every aspect of my conlang perfectly naturalistic, but when it comes to sound changes, I tend to chose things that happen as a result of my own lazy mouth, which I feel is a fair apporximation. For later descendant languages, I'll also be taking cues from established sound-change laws in major language families, but I'll never stop choosing sounds that make sense to me. I do agree that having only one random ejective is a little odd, but as I said, the language doesn't treat it different than any other Aspirated consonant, so it may as well just be considered one anyway.

Thank you for the critique it was greatly appreciated :)
Rhûnido, my conlang :)
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