Introducing Vyrmag

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tigfa
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by tigfa »

Because you seem to not know how to gloss very well at all, I still don't know how your reflexive pronoun works.
I agree with you. It's one of the things I have yet to learn. Also, note that I'm in no way a skilled conlanger. I am missing a lot of knowledge. Aside from glossing, my biggest problem is terminology. I'll probably know about a feature, but I would not be able to recognize it by its name.

ae kyo ye'gata krana'lens iya daig.
1sg move GEN-REFL Knowledge-container towards 3sg


Am I doing it right?
yevyrm akspyeg, ileg daicu!
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by masako »

tigfa wrote:Am I doing it right?
Sorta.

Try this:

ae kyo ye'gata krana'lens iya daig.conlang
1sg move GEN-REFL knowledge-container towards 3sggloss
I gave him my own book.English


Now, my question: Have you placed the reflexive pronoun on a genitive particle?
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Xing
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by Xing »

tigfa wrote:
For instance, a question about the use of the reflexive pronoun revealed that it just 'happened' to be use in the same way as in English. A coincidence?
I'd actually say it works similar to how the reflexive pronoun works in Chinese, although originally it worked like it did in English.
From what i can grasp from the brief discussion on reddit, it seems that people either don't know how it is (or should be) used, or that different people use it differently.
J_from_Holland wrote:6 months and 17 proficient speakers?
How did you get such a big community? I mean, 17 speakers is pretty big for a relatively young conlang. It's 17 times
I guess so many people have "learnt" the language because there is very little to learn. The question is, to what extent the language is "fully functional". If you literally could learn a language "overnight", it would be a world sensation! Why should people have to struggle for year with mastering English or French or Spanish or other languages, if they can learn Vyrmag "overnight"??

I would doubt that Vyrmag (or at least the version of it you can learn "overnight") is suitable for much more than pidgin-like conversations in very restricted contexts. To take another example: apparently, the English word "turtle" can be rendered as something like armoured water animal. The problem is that there are many other animals that (1) live in the water, and (2) could be described as "armoured" - such as various forms of shellfish. How would one say something like: "I can't eat the shellfish soup, but the turtle soup is OK"?
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by elemtilas »

tigfa wrote:It's one of the things I have yet to learn. Also, note that I'm in no way a skilled conlanger. I am missing a lot of knowledge. Aside from glossing, my biggest problem is terminology. I'll probably know about a feature, but I would not be able to recognize it by its name.
No worries! Everyone here lacks knowledge, to some extent or other; and everyone here started out as a beginner at some point in time!

But we do offer remedies: Glossopoesy is always a learn as you go endeavour, and we do offer an on the job training programme. There are loads of resources here in the forum as well as other places (Frath Wiki being a good example) where you can learn terminology and the like.
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by masako »

elemtilas wrote:There are loads of resources here in the forum as well as other places (Frath Wiki being a good example) where you can learn terminology and the like.
Frathwiki is OK, but they gather most of their linguistic stuff from Wikipedia, so you might as well go there. People knock WP, but almost every entry related to linguistics sites multiple academic sources, so it's just as good as any other resource.
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elemtilas
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by elemtilas »

masako wrote:
elemtilas wrote:There are loads of resources here in the forum as well as other places (Frath Wiki being a good example) where you can learn terminology and the like.
Frathwiki is OK, but they gather most of their linguistic stuff from Wikipedia, so you might as well go there. People knock WP, but almost every entry related to linguistics sites multiple academic sources, so it's just as good as any other resource.
Nothing wrong at all with WP! I was thinking more along the lines of the conlang related stuff at Frath, more than general linguistics. Folks at the Language Creation Society are also quite helpful and there's some good resources there as well.
tigfa
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by tigfa »

Now, my question: Have you placed the reflexive pronoun on a genitive particle?

Yes.
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by masako »

tigfa wrote:
Now, my question: Have you placed the reflexive pronoun on a genitive particle?
Yes.
That *is* unusual.

Chinese does not do this, so you are incorrect to state that your grammar follows Chinese.

The sentence I posted for you is like this in Chinese:

我给他自己的书
Wǒ gěi tā zìjǐ de shū
1sg give 3sg.MASC REFL GEN book

As you might be able to see, the genitive and the reflexive are not really attached. You should consider looking into some natlangs before finalizing any grammar. Good luck.
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tigfa
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by tigfa »

tigfa wrote:As you might be able to see, the genitive and the reflexive are not really attached. You should consider looking into some natlangs before finalizing any grammar. Good luck.

ae kyo gata ye krana'lens iya dai
1sg move REFL GEN knowldege-container to 3sg.

I forgot to mention that this works too. Although I prefer the other one, I know members of the community who prefer this. Here, the genitive and reflexive are not attached.

Other examples of this happening:

ae gur gata ye dag'fas
1sg like REFL GEN good-occurrence

dai ye gata ye atu?
1sg. GEN REFL GEN water
yevyrm akspyeg, ileg daicu!
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by masako »

Your posts seem to indicate a laziness.

It also seems that you aren't fully grasping the grammatical concepts being discussed.

Chinese is an analytic or isolating language. That means that the order of morphemes has a high tendency to completely change the meaning of a given phrase. Again, I suggest you spend an ample amount of time studying these things before assuming you understand how they work.
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by tigfa »

Chinese is an analytic or isolating language. That means that the order of morphemes has a high tendency to completely change the meaning of a given phrase. Again, I suggest you spend an ample amount of time studying these things before assuming you understand how they work.

Yes, I know how it works. I'm a linguistic noob so please bear with my lack of knowledge/mistakes in examples.


Anyways thanks to everyone for their criticism. Mixed with the community's suggestions, I am planning to make yet another revision.

To take another example: apparently, the English word "turtle" can be rendered as something like armoured water animal. The problem is that there are many other animals that (1) live in the water, and (2) could be described as "armoured" - such as various forms of shellfish. How would one say something like: "I can't eat the shellfish soup, but the turtle soup is OK"?
Tortoise - torg'atu'ira'kyop - armoured-water-living-thing
Shellfish (unable to move on its own) - an'kyun'gata'kyo torg'atu'ira'kyop - not-able-self-move amoured-water-living-thing

Hopefully the revision can also make these words smaller.
yevyrm akspyeg, ileg daicu!
Prinsessa
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by Prinsessa »

Crabs and their kin are pretty capable of moving on their own...
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by Salmoneus »

Prinsessa wrote:Crabs and their kin are pretty capable of moving on their own...
But it is impressive that he's been able to spend 11 syllables on 'prawn'. But then I wonder how 'prawn', 'oyster' and 'crab' are translated.

(But yes, having the defining feature of shellfish be immobility, when many (most!) of them are perfectly capable of motion is somewhat bizarre.
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by Prinsessa »

Well, we've got the Hawaiian humuhumunukunukuapua'a (which is common enough to be the state fish of Hawaii) and lauwiliwilinukunuku'oi'oi (which is unspecific enough as to refer to two different species, tho they are admittedly almost identical so I don't see why any language except science should differentiate between them), after all.

But they are of course distinct species and not entire families of animals.

You can see some pretty nice oligosynthesis-like formations in some languages deciding on neologisms for new concepts, tho. Cree for 'horse' is supposedly literally "big dog" (and as a side note, this Navaho etymology for dog is kind of interesting), or Navaho chidí naaʼnaʼí beeʼeldǫǫhtsoh bikááʼ dah naaznilígíí for the English monosyllable 'tank'. I don't think it's unreasonable that some things that seem basic and short in one language should be much longer in others.

This happens sometimes when the language lacks the concept natively and opts for a neologism instead of a loanword, and I suppose one could say that Vyrmag is meant to have, well, almost nothing natively.

As a living language, tho, which OP wants it to be, I would expect short forms of common words to crop up eventually.

The thing is that sometimes you just don't have to be specific. Some languages are ridiculously specific IMO. I don't see the point of distinguishing jam and marmalade. Distinguishing certain specific species of animals isn't always relevant and can be left ambiguous if the context allows for it. The lengthier forms would only be used when completely necessary for disambiguation, which is a reasonable enough situation for one to afford a few extra syllables.

That said, we all know the problems with true oligosynthesis, and I'm not denying those. I just think people often point out a lot of problems that aren't really problems due to native bias.

And some languages do have words that cover multiple entirely different types of animals based solely on shared features like 'armoured', and don't use specifics unless they have to. Many languages can use 'bird' for anything flying, including for example insects (Danish sommerfugl, literally "summerbird", meaning 'butterfly) or aeroplane (aviation; avion), or 'fish' for anything swimming (English 'jellyfish'; Swedish bläckfisk, literally "inkfish", meaning 'squid') and so on. And it works out just fine.

And it's very common. I feel often Anglophones are so accustomed to having obscure loanwords for every specific thing that they don't realise that most other languages simply use native, oft ambiguous, compounds or derivations like these, and often make fewer colloquial distinctions than English.

Just the other day I talked to someone who found the Faroese word for rhinoceros, meaning literally the same thing as the Greek word but without being obscure to a Germanic speaker, and being similarly formed in most Germanic languages besides English, ridiculous because it was so literal – but even rhinoceros itself is literal if you know Greek. And very ambiguous. Nosehorn could be anything. It could be an iguana.

On the opposite end, languages have many words that are ambiguous unless you know that they have specific usage, including even English 'shellfish' or the even more ambiguous Swedish translation, skaldjur, literally just "shell animal". Skalbagge means 'beetle' but bagge alone means 'ram'.
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by Xing »

tigfa wrote:
ae kyo gata ye krana'lens iya dai
1sg move REFL GEN knowldege-container to 3sg.
What notion of a 'word' would be relevant for your conlang? Are there any reasons you consider 'ye' an independent word rather than a suffix, apart from the fact that it's separated from 'gata' by a space? As you might know, whether or not a space is inserted between two morphemes is largely governed by orthographic conventions, which need not say much about the nature of the language. For instance, in native Chinese writing, there are no spaces between words. Therefore, you must follow some other criteria in order to determine whether the genitive 'de' is an independent word, a clitic or a suffix.

Suppose someone would write: ae kyo gataye krana'lens iya dai - with gataye written without spaces. Would this merely be an alternative spelling, or would it hint at anything more? Would gataye and gata ye suggest some slight difference in pronunciation - such as different prosody, stress or intonation? Could you insert something more between 'gata' and 'ye'? Could there even be some slight difference in meaning between gataye and gata ye?
tigfa
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by tigfa »

Crabs and their kin are pretty capable of moving on their own...

I'm not gonna write it in Vyrmag because I'm just typing this quickly on the train.
Anyways It would probably involve plankton eating armored water animals, stationary and not stationary.
yevyrm akspyeg, ileg daicu!
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Re: Introducing Vyrmag

Post by Khemehekis »

Wow, I just discovered this thread!
tigfa wrote: 15 Apr 2015 15:50 Edit: Sample Text
Spoiler:
Sorry, unable to provide IPA because I'm on a tablet right now. Also, I suck at glossing (It's one of the things I still have to learn).

belg an'nya en nov "orlins"
ye'kyop yug tara'iya'kyo on
ag kyop art il'kyub iya syu daig'syu
ag vyxk, ae krana e ae vyxm

Building neg.-notexist in new Orleans
gen.-it name (copula) air-direction-move sun
and it create intensifier-destruction towards many people-plural.
and true, I know one I be.
Can anyone guess the song?
Although Tigfa last posted four years ago, almost to the day, I would like to take credit as the first CBBizen to guess this song.

Is it "House of the Rising Sun" by the Animals?

EDIT: Maybe I should try to find this guy on Reddit.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 88,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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