Strathan language

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
HoskhMatriarch
roman
roman
Posts: 1500
Joined: 16 May 2015 18:48

Re: Strathan language

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

It's like Old High German combined with Gaelic and a little Norse influence, except it's split ergative. Has anyone started learning this yet? I think it's pretty cool though, even if I couldn see the etymologies of many of the words.
No darkness can harm you if you are guided by your own inner light
Prinsessa
runic
runic
Posts: 2647
Joined: 07 Nov 2011 14:42

Re: Strathan language

Post by Prinsessa »

I'm not entirely sure how you got what you got from what I wrote about valency, but happy to be of service!

Finally took the time to read through the whole thread and I really enjoyed pronouncing the prayer. It has a nice ring to it. I like the correspondence between the spelling and the pronunciation, and I like those diphthongs with the schwas in them.

Looking forward to more!
Friedebarth
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 28
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 11:58

Re: Strathan language

Post by Friedebarth »

Thanks all!

Now for some more thoughts:

Verb forms

I want a decent amount of irregular verbs. Hence, I've decided to have a lot of verbal suppletion from different source langs, along with other processes like apophony. These will provide the stems for verbs in different forms and tenses.

There are three verb forms: Autonomous, conjunct and relative.

The autonomous is like the "independent" verb form of Goidelic languages. That is, it is used when no modifying particle affects it.

The conjunct is used when a non-relative particle affects it. Such particles include the negative (gon), interrogative (an), negative-interrogative (non), contrast negative (né) and some of their variant forms, as well as the superintensive (ró) and the subattenuative (bic), which indicate "too much" or "too little" respectively. Some of these particles trigger lenition, but for reference the conjunct stems are always cited in their unlenited forms.

The relative, as the name suggests, is used in relative clauses.

Not all verbs have different stems for each form. As a rule of thumb, the infinitive/citation form is usually based on the autonomous present stem, but there are exceptions.

Here is a sample stem paradigm, that of the verb <cuma> (to come).

AUTONOMOUS
Distant past: com-
Recent past: cam-
Present: cum-
Future: ciam-

CONJUNCT
Distant past: togad-
Recent past: tog-
Present: tug-
Future: tig-

DEPENDENT
Distant past: ded-
Recent past: deud-
Present: dod-
Future: deg-*

* This is an irregular form resulting from conflation with the conjunct form.

Next up: Pronominal clitics.
ML :deu: DE / :de-nw: KSH / :uk: EN-GB
C1 :gla: SCO
B1 :swe: SV
A1 :gla: GD / :esp: ES / :fra: FR / :gle: GA
A0 :fao: FO / :lat: LA
Friedebarth
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 28
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 11:58

Re: Strathan language

Post by Friedebarth »

Pronominal clitics

Strathan has pronominal clitics, a bit like Spanish, but including the prepositional pronouns. They are considered a colloquial feature, and in formal writing will tend not to be used. In colloquial speech, they're generally used in clauses containing more than one object, though some dialects also use them in clauses with only one object.

An example of a sentence with clitics versus without is:

You give me the book for him.

Cuirosaundi levorin.
cuir-os-aun-di levor-in
PRES\put-2SG-on.me-for.him book-DEF

Cuiros levorin di aum.
cuir-os levor-in di aum
PRES\put book-DEF for.him on.me

Note that aun is a phonetically conditioned allomorph of aum, because of the dental consonant following it.

As you can see, the use of clitics introduces some semantic ambiguity that could otherwise be syntactically solved. For example, "Cuirosaundi levorin" could be taken to mean "You gave me [the book which is for him]", as the second sentence does, but it could also mean "You gave me the book for his sake" (rendered without clitics as "Di cuiros levorin aum" - remember topical word order).

So, as you can see, by using these clitics, you lose a bit of the topical word order, and this ambiguity is why it isn't popular in formal writing nor indeed formal speech.
ML :deu: DE / :de-nw: KSH / :uk: EN-GB
C1 :gla: SCO
B1 :swe: SV
A1 :gla: GD / :esp: ES / :fra: FR / :gle: GA
A0 :fao: FO / :lat: LA
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10372
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Strathan language

Post by shimobaatar »

Friedebarth wrote: There are three verb forms: Autonomous, conjunct and relative.
Cool!
Friedebarth wrote: Not all verbs have different stems for each form. As a rule of thumb, the infinitive/citation form is usually based on the autonomous present stem, but there are exceptions.

Here is a sample stem paradigm, that of the verb <cuma> (to come).
Whoa! The three groups of stems look pretty different; I assume that's due to suppletion?
Friedebarth wrote: Strathan has pronominal clitics, a bit like Spanish, but including the prepositional pronouns. They are considered a colloquial feature, and in formal writing will tend not to be used. In colloquial speech, they're generally used in clauses containing more than one object, though some dialects also use them in clauses with only one object.
Friedebarth wrote: As you can see, the use of clitics introduces some semantic ambiguity that could otherwise be syntactically solved. For example, "Cuirosaundi levorin" could be taken to mean "You gave me [the book which is for him]", as the second sentence does, but it could also mean "You gave me the book for his sake" (rendered without clitics as "Di cuiros levorin aum" - remember topical word order).

So, as you can see, by using these clitics, you lose a bit of the topical word order, and this ambiguity is why it isn't popular in formal writing nor indeed formal speech.
Also very interesting! Sorry if I'm overlooking the answer to this, but is there a limit on how many clitics one verb can have attached to it?
Friedebarth
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 28
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 11:58

Re: Strathan language

Post by Friedebarth »

shimobaatar wrote:Whoa! The three groups of stems look pretty different; I assume that's due to suppletion?
Yup! The autonomous is Germanic, the conjunct Goidelic and the relative Brythonic, in this case.
shimobaatar wrote:Also very interesting! Sorry if I'm overlooking the answer to this, but is there a limit on how many clitics one verb can have attached to it?
Theoretically no, but more than 2 or maybe 3 would probably not really be done. It'd be quite a challenge to come up with more than 2 or 3 pronominal objects for a verb, anyway. Four is maybe imaginable, if I replace the "book" by "it" and add "through them", then you could express "You gave it to me for him through them"...but obviously if that 3PL "them" was another 3SG (so far I've resisted the urge to have gendered pronouns, but I might change my mind) then it would become stupidly ambiguous and not really worth expressing that way. Is it the same him? Is it another him? What is going on here? xD
ML :deu: DE / :de-nw: KSH / :uk: EN-GB
C1 :gla: SCO
B1 :swe: SV
A1 :gla: GD / :esp: ES / :fra: FR / :gle: GA
A0 :fao: FO / :lat: LA
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10372
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Strathan language

Post by shimobaatar »

Friedebarth wrote: Yup! The autonomous is Germanic, the conjunct Goidelic and the relative Brythonic, in this case.
I know you've said that the language has many suppletive verb forms, but about how common is this level of suppletion?
Friedebarth wrote: Theoretically no, but more than 2 or maybe 3 would probably not really be done. It'd be quite a challenge to come up with more than 2 or 3 pronominal objects for a verb, anyway. Four is maybe imaginable, if I replace the "book" by "it" and add "through them", then you could express "You gave it to me for him through them"...but obviously if that 3PL "them" was another 3SG (so far I've resisted the urge to have gendered pronouns, but I might change my mind) then it would become stupidly ambiguous and not really worth expressing that way. Is it the same him? Is it another him? What is going on here? xD
Ahh, that makes sense; thanks for the explanation!
Friedebarth
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 28
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 11:58

Re: Strathan language

Post by Friedebarth »

shimobaatar wrote:
Friedebarth wrote: Yup! The autonomous is Germanic, the conjunct Goidelic and the relative Brythonic, in this case.
I know you've said that the language has many suppletive verb forms, but about how common is this level of suppletion?
Fairly so. A lot of basic verbs have it, and obviously their derivatives will thus inherit these suppleted forms (because Strathan has verbal prefixes). So, say you had some verb *macuma derived from cuma, its 3SG present negative would still be "gon mhatugodh", just like the 3SG present negative of cuma would be "gon thugodh".
ML :deu: DE / :de-nw: KSH / :uk: EN-GB
C1 :gla: SCO
B1 :swe: SV
A1 :gla: GD / :esp: ES / :fra: FR / :gle: GA
A0 :fao: FO / :lat: LA
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10372
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Strathan language

Post by shimobaatar »

Ahh, got it. Thanks for the explanation!
Friedebarth
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 28
Joined: 09 Oct 2012 11:58

Re: Strathan language

Post by Friedebarth »

Some basic phrases, this time in the "standard" register - how you'd talk to strangers you approach on the street, or to colleagues you don't know well, or business partners, or distant relatives, or acquaintances...you get the gist: People you don't know well, but don't need to show excessive respect/deference to, either.

This register makes a lot of use of religious imagery; it reflects the society's piety.

Hello (initiator) "(A vesodh) Sithin Criosti ecudh!"
(May) the peace of Christ (be) at thee.

Hello (responder) "S Beydharin Mhoiri ecudhén."
And the prayers of Mary at thyself.

Goodbye (initiator) "A crafodh Di thi an co Bhas."
May God hold thee in his palm.

Goodbye (responder) "S cumalodh thihén an Beth mairenagh."
And keep thyself in life eternal.

Please. "An tho Chardhanagh."
In thy charity.

You're welcome. "Bi' E th' Bheth." (from "Biodh E tho Bheth")
He is thy life.

Thank you. "A vesodh tho Díleb mó-regh maro."
May thy inheritance be richer because of it.

However, "Welcome" (in the sense of "Welcome home") is the banale "Fàlti", which just means "Welcome" in and of itself.
ML :deu: DE / :de-nw: KSH / :uk: EN-GB
C1 :gla: SCO
B1 :swe: SV
A1 :gla: GD / :esp: ES / :fra: FR / :gle: GA
A0 :fao: FO / :lat: LA
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 10372
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Strathan language

Post by shimobaatar »

Friedebarth wrote:Some basic phrases, this time in the "standard" register - how you'd talk to strangers you approach on the street, or to colleagues you don't know well, or business partners, or distant relatives, or acquaintances...you get the gist: People you don't know well, but don't need to show excessive respect/deference to, either.

This register makes a lot of use of religious imagery; it reflects the society's piety.
Spoiler:
Hello (initiator) "(A vesodh) Sithin Criosti ecudh!"
(May) the peace of Christ (be) at thee.

Hello (responder) "S Beydharin Mhoiri ecudhén."
And the prayers of Mary at thyself.

Goodbye (initiator) "A crafodh Di thi an co Bhas."
May God hold thee in his palm.

Goodbye (responder) "S cumalodh thihén an Beth mairenagh."
And keep thyself in life eternal.

Please. "An tho Chardhanagh."
In thy charity.

You're welcome. "Bi' E th' Bheth." (from "Biodh E tho Bheth")
He is thy life.

Thank you. "A vesodh tho Díleb mó-regh maro."
May thy inheritance be richer because of it.

However, "Welcome" (in the sense of "Welcome home") is the banale "Fàlti", which just means "Welcome" in and of itself.
These are really cool; they remind me of greetings and other common phrases found in some natlangs.
Post Reply