This isn't entirely the case, though. In English, we use the present tense to discuss things like the habitual: "I eat every day". We also sometimes use the present tense when telling a story about something that happened in the past: "So I walk into the bar, and you'll never guess who's there! It's Steve, who's pointing a gun at me and claiming that I'm sleeping with his wife".Larryrl wrote:As someone showed me in a youtube video, if it is not going to happen in the future, and it has not already happened in the past, then it must be happening now, so a language really does not need a present tense verb ending.
What I have been working on
Re: What I have been working on
Re: What I have been working on
I suspect that out in the wild, a language really does not need any of the verb endings you're opting for. It's not like a speech community calls a town hall meeting and says, "OMG, we so need a past tense and we're going to mark it with '-ed'." These things arise organically, collectively subconsciously, and metapsychologically over time, so different languages have different TAM strategies all over the board of what, I guess, a human brain can handle. To that end, certain patterns can probably be drawn (humans seem to want to talk about what happened yesterday, last week, or just now), but hard and fast rules not so much (ergo, they need a past tense).Larryrl wrote:I just wonder how confusing it would be if I left out the present tense verb ending? As someone showed me in a youtube video, if it is not going to happen in the future, and it has not already happened in the past, then it must be happening now, so a language really does not need a present tense verb ending.
It sounds like, as a language creator, you are calling your own town meeting and making these calls, which is what language creators do. But you could easily and unconfuddlingly collapse your present tense, and imperative and infinitive moods into one without batting an eye. Or collapse the future, conditional, and imperative. Or just as easily something else, and it would not impede ease of use beyond your own understanding (or that of those you would have learn this) of "easy to use".The primary objective with this language is that it must be easy to use.
☯ 道可道,非常道
☯ 名可名,非常名
☯ 名可名,非常名
Re: What I have been working on
I do not know how to do anything unconfuddlinglyLao Kou wrote:I suspect that out in the wild, a language really does not need any of the verb endings you're opting for. It's not like a speech community calls a town hall meeting and says, "OMG, we so need a past tense and we're going to mark it with '-ed'." These things arise organically, collectively subconsciously, and metapsychologically over time, so different languages have different TAM strategies all over the board of what, I guess, a human brain can handle. To that end, certain patterns can probably be drawn (humans seem to want to talk about what happened yesterday, last week, or just now), but hard and fast rules not so much (ergo, they need a past tense).Larryrl wrote:I just wonder how confusing it would be if I left out the present tense verb ending? As someone showed me in a youtube video, if it is not going to happen in the future, and it has not already happened in the past, then it must be happening now, so a language really does not need a present tense verb ending.
It sounds like, as a language creator, you are calling your own town meeting and making these calls, which is what language creators do. But you could easily and unconfuddlingly collapse your present tense, and imperative and infinitive moods into one without batting an eye. Or collapse the future, conditional, and imperative. Or just as easily something else, and it would not impede ease of use beyond your own understanding (or that of those you would have learn this) of "easy to use".The primary objective with this language is that it must be easy to use.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
OK so made some changes. First I wrote a simple program to count the length of each word and keeping the longest of them to display to me on the screen. So the longest word written is 7 letters. So I decided to make the language to be written vertically starting on the top line of the lined paper, so then it goes left to right with each word starting at the top line. Then you move seven lines down from the top of the word, and then skip one more for space, and start back at the left side of the page again. That won't allow as many words per page as writing it left to right using each line, but it looks way cool.
So the word Alright or OK, is written like this
C
H
Which is Choha
7 lines are reserved for the words to be written, however if you already know what you wish to write, and you know the lengths of the words involved, you could get by with fewer reserved lines. This would help get more words per page.
So the word Alright or OK, is written like this
C
H
Which is Choha
7 lines are reserved for the words to be written, however if you already know what you wish to write, and you know the lengths of the words involved, you could get by with fewer reserved lines. This would help get more words per page.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
OK, so I changed the affixes so they are all somewhat different from the regular alphabet characters, eve if the only have a curcuimflex (roof) on top.
these are the new affixes.
It is important to note that the column for spelling, is how it would be spelled as it sounds, however the /ɑʊ/ while spoken, is never written This is so we do not need the Ŭ at all, and thus I removed it from the alphabet. Also the zh character for double consonant has changed to Ž.
these are the new affixes.
Spoiler:
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
- Frislander
- mayan
- Posts: 2088
- Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
- Location: The North
Re: What I have been working on
Erm, in real life Π is /p/, Ю is /ju/, Њ is something like /nj/, Ђ is /dʑ/ and Ж is /ʒ~ʐ/.Larryrl wrote:OK, so I changed the affixes so they are all somewhat different from the regular alphabet characters, eve if the only have a curcuimflex (roof) on top.
these are the new affixes.
It is important to note that the column for spelling, is how it would be spelled as it sounds, however the /ɑʊ/ while spoken, is never written This is so we do not need the Ŭ at all, and thus I removed it from the alphabet. Also the zh character for double consonant has changed to Ž.Spoiler:
Re: What I have been working on
You are absolutely right, but just because some natlang uses them one way does not mean I can't totally change what they are. This happens because of a shortage of symbols in excel and word, There was not a decent K with a diacritic I felt comfortable using. I chose Π because it looked like a square n. If you have any suggested replacements that might work a little better, I'd be more than happy to consider them. Truthfully this is hopefully the last thing to get right, as the vocabulary is already in place. I might have to add a few words that may not be in the vocab list, but that is just with trial and error by writing in and and seeing what is lacking.Frislander wrote:Erm, in real life Π is /p/, Ю is /ju/, Њ is something like /nj/, Ђ is /dʑ/ and Ж is /ʒ~ʐ/.Larryrl wrote:OK, so I changed the affixes so they are all somewhat different from the regular alphabet characters, eve if the only have a curcuimflex (roof) on top.
these are the new affixes.
It is important to note that the column for spelling, is how it would be spelled as it sounds, however the /ɑʊ/ while spoken, is never written This is so we do not need the Ŭ at all, and thus I removed it from the alphabet. Also the zh character for double consonant has changed to Ž.Spoiler:
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
The new endings whether they stay the same or get modified again, they will definitely be only one character and will be pronounced as I have previously stated. This is important so as to keep down the length of the words. Instead of a consonant and the u breve, we can just have a single consonant which is pronounced like itself plus the ɑʊ sound. After all, what good is a language that would get only like 80 words per page? Not much. this way I get at least 120 to -240 words per page depending on college rule or wide rule notebook paper, and depending on how wide you make your letters.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
Um, actually, it's not just "some" natlang; it's a number of languages representing hundreds of millions of speakers.Larryrl wrote: You are absolutely right, but just because some natlang uses them one way does not mean I can't totally change what they are
The general recommendation is to avoid "totally changing" the phonemes a letter represents from the usual expectation, largely because it impedes communication and learning. Not to mention being totally confusing!
My understanding is that Excel and Word are fully Unicode-compliant, which means that there should be plenty of symbols available for you to use.This happens because of a shortage of symbols in excel and word
Re: What I have been working on
Someone shudda told Sequoya...Axiem wrote:Um, actually, it's not just "some" natlang; it's a number of languages representing hundreds of millions of speakers.Larryrl wrote: You are absolutely right, but just because some natlang uses them one way does not mean I can't totally change what they are
The general recommendation is to avoid "totally changing" the phonemes a letter represents from the usual expectation, largely because it impedes communication and learning. Not to mention being totally confusing!
While you have a valid point, he is actually working on an invented language. And unless I missed a memo somewhere along the way, he can choose whatever bloody symbol he wants for any sound he wants to apply it to!
Of course, you are quite right about impediments to communication and confusions abounding: he should also be clear what the symbol actually means, ideally placing it alongside an IPA realisation as well as a reasonable romanisation.
All this being said, the greater the departure you make with various letter-forms, Larryrl, the less likely I would be to try and read it or understand any of it. This is why we typically show off our conlangs in simple romanisation scheme rather than in native script.
Re: What I have been working on
I understand what you are saying. The newly modified affix list is as followselemtilas wrote:Someone shudda told Sequoya...Axiem wrote:Um, actually, it's not just "some" natlang; it's a number of languages representing hundreds of millions of speakers.Larryrl wrote: You are absolutely right, but just because some natlang uses them one way does not mean I can't totally change what they are
The general recommendation is to avoid "totally changing" the phonemes a letter represents from the usual expectation, largely because it impedes communication and learning. Not to mention being totally confusing!
While you have a valid point, he is actually working on an invented language. And unless I missed a memo somewhere along the way, he can choose whatever bloody symbol he wants for any sound he wants to apply it to!
Of course, you are quite right about impediments to communication and confusions abounding: he should also be clear what the symbol actually means, ideally placing it alongside an IPA realisation as well as a reasonable romanisation.
All this being said, the greater the departure you make with various letter-forms, Larryrl, the less likely I would be to try and read it or understand any of it. This is why we typically show off our conlangs in simple romanisation scheme rather than in native script.
Spoiler:
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
Here are some sample questions will post more as I progress.
Spoiler:
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
Cool.Larryrl wrote:Here are some sample questions will post more as I progress.
1 YOU CAN LEAD MAN TO RESTAURANT BUT CANNOT MAKE HIM TO PAY THE BILL
WRITTEN: YRW BJVБ LFW PR BSY LO YRW WCKБ LHNĜ HFĎ SYFĜ KO HR
SPOKEN: YURIWU BUJAVEБ LOFAWU PERI BUSIYU LO YURIWU WUCHOKAБ LOHANEĜ HAFAĎ SIYUFAĜ KO HARI
So, how does this all work together? I guess your next step here should be to give us an interlinear, showing which word means what and what its part of speech is.
Re: What I have been working on
This particular sentence works like this:elemtilas wrote:Cool.Larryrl wrote:Here are some sample questions will post more as I progress.
1 YOU CAN LEAD MAN TO RESTAURANT BUT CANNOT MAKE HIM TO PAY THE BILL
WRITTEN: YRW BJVБ LFW PR BSY LO YRW WCKБ LHNĜ HFĎ SYFĜ KO HR
SPOKEN: YURIWU BUJAVEБ LOFAWU PERI BUSIYU LO YURIWU WUCHOKAБ LOHANEĜ HAFAĎ SIYUFAĜ KO HARI
So, how does this all work together? I guess your next step here should be to give us an interlinear, showing which word means what and what its part of speech is.
YURIWU = You (pronoun)
BUJAVEБ = lead plus the can / able to affix (verb)
LOFAWU = man (noun)
PERI = to (preposition)
BUSIYU = restaurant (noun)
LO = but (conjunction)
YURIWU = you (pronoun)
WUCHOKOБ = not plus the can / able to affix (verb)
LOHANEĜ = to cause which is cause plus the infinitive verb mood ending (verb)
HAFAĎ = him )pronoun)
SIYUFAĜ = to pay which is pay plus the infinitive verb mood ending (verb)
KO = the (article)
HARI = bill (noun)
Btw never done an interlinear before, but I can at least put the parts of speech in my tables before I turn the word list into a pdf file. I had a whole grammar booklet in the works, but now I gotta modify it heavily as I changed all of the words as I previously mentioned, and also because I went back to writing left to write like we do in English. the whole up and down thing was not working so well for me.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
This is the location where you can download my grammar and dictionary and play around with it. I hope I can get some feedback as to how well it is going.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/38m8mje4wnxs3 ... R.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/38m8mje4wnxs3 ... R.pdf?dl=0
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
Well, now I am adding words like crazy. that is the only way to make ckdk a better language. The 9 page grammar, is now 15 and with the dictionary added on, it's over 60 pages. My little baby language is now a teenager Lol. Once you start making up sentences, you find out just what words are missing from the dictionary.
I have only been working on conlangs since around 1994, and will admit to not knowing some things, but my grammar is small because I do not talk about what I do not know. Some conlang authors talk about something being dative, or nom however it is spelled. I'm sure some of the english words in my dictionary are in some of those forms but I have no idea which ones, or what the nom and dative actually are.
The link to the grammar can be found in a previous post. Take a look at it, and tell me what you think, good or bad.
I have only been working on conlangs since around 1994, and will admit to not knowing some things, but my grammar is small because I do not talk about what I do not know. Some conlang authors talk about something being dative, or nom however it is spelled. I'm sure some of the english words in my dictionary are in some of those forms but I have no idea which ones, or what the nom and dative actually are.
The link to the grammar can be found in a previous post. Take a look at it, and tell me what you think, good or bad.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
Now, I've run in to a bit of a snag. I am having trouble finding a way to convert names into my language. Do I ask people to pronounce the names as they would in English or another language as loan words, or do I get a l large list of names, and just make up new words for each name? I m not sure how I will do it.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Me too sexy for shirt.
Bu mac zoom pana shem.
Me too sexy for shirt.
Kle mac bu run
So sexyI hurt
Beef steak is good
wos pis ho tu
Re: What I have been working on
I had this problem a while ago with an earlier language. The solution is to imagine a native speaker of your conlang is hearing the name. Say they've never heard or used some of the sounds in it. What is the closest sound to it that they would hear? Take the name "Steve". In my current sonlang, ther is noLarryrl wrote:Now, I've run in to a bit of a snag. I am having trouble finding a way to convert names into my language. Do I ask people to pronounce the names as they would in English or another language as loan words, or do I get a l large list of names, and just make up new words for each name? I m not sure how I will do it.
The thing with names is because they are proper nouns, they don't really work like other words which can just be translated. You need to figure out how a native speaker would pronounce the name and take your name from that.
- Frislander
- mayan
- Posts: 2088
- Joined: 14 May 2016 18:47
- Location: The North
Re: What I have been working on
What about an epenthetic high-vowel?OTʜᴇB wrote:I can't have a [st] cluster, but I can have [ʃr̆], so I'd use that as it is the closest I can get.
Re: What I have been working on
That would also work, yielding either [ʃɪt] "ʃit" or [ʃiːt] "ʃiit", though I doubt a person would hear [st] and decide there is a vowel there.Frislander wrote:What about an epenthetic high-vowel?OTʜᴇB wrote:I can't have a [st] cluster, but I can have [ʃr̆], so I'd use that as it is the closest I can get.