Quick Diachronics Challenge

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shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

I had some time this morning to give this a shot. I apologize for my rambling thoughts below the spoiler.

I'm glad this game is back! This was a fun set of words to work with. I particularly like the look/sound of [pəˈθɑn], [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ], [ˈʕets], and [ˈχaː.ze], just to pick out a few.  [:)]
Spoiler:
For this first attempt, I've tried grouping the languages together based on what feels simplest to me personally. I suppose we'll see how far off I end up being. 

A) [ˈga.ʃə] - [pəˈθɑn] - [ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə] - [ka.ˈxə̃]
B) [ˈɣaː.tʃ] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ] - [kaː.ˈxə̃]

[ˈga.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtʰɑn] - [ŋaˈmo.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)

I originally assumed that the correspondence between [θ] in A and [t] in B in the second word was due to some sort of intervocalic lenition process that took place in the history of A, but after looking at some of the cognates in other languages, I think I'm going to reconstruct the medial consonant in the second word as [tʰ]. 

C) [ˈɟe.tʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ] - [kəː.ˈɣã]
D) [ˈgje.tʃe] - [ˈtʰen] - [je.ˈw̃o.ɬa] - [kaː.ˈʔã]

[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈtʰæn] - [jeˈw̃o.ɬæ] - [kaːˈɣã] (Proto-C/D)

At least for now, I think I'm going to assume that both instances of [æ] in C are directly inherited from Proto-C/D, if it existed, but I don't know if I'm entirely satisfied with that. 

[ˈga.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtʰɑn] - [ŋaˈmo.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈtʰæn] - [jeˈw̃o.ɬæ] - [kaːˈɣã] (Proto-C/D)

[ˈge.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptʰɑn] - [ʔeˈmo.ɬæ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)

Regarding the backness of the low vowel in the second word, I had originally reconstructed it as [æ], but after looking at many of the word's cognates in other members of the family, I think I'll go with [ɑ] instead for now, although I'm not sure why Proto-A/B/C/D [ɑ] would have been fronted to [æ] in Proto-C/D when, for instance, [aː] in the fourth word was not fronted. 

The fact that the pretonic vowel in the fourth word is long in A, B, C, and D, but the pretonic vowel in the third word is only long in B makes it seem like its lengthening is the result of a sound change particular to B. 

I'm somewhat uncertain about the correspondence between [a] and [je] in my reconstructions of Proto-A/B and Proto-C/D, respectively, but for now, I'm going to simply assume they both descend from [e]. 

E) [ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi] - [ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃]
F) [ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi] - [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ] - [ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi] - [kax.ˈxãː]

[ə̃w̃ˈged.d͡ʑi] - [ˈptʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃ˈmoʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣˈɣãj̃] (Proto-E/F)

G) [ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕʼ] - [ˈtʼɐnd] - [ˈmʉʎ] - [ˈqχɑn]
H) [əŋ.ˈgətɕi] - [ˈpθən.də] - [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]

[əŋˈgɨ.t͡ɕʼi] - [ˈptɐn.də] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)

I'm not sure exactly how to explain the ejective in the first word in G, so for now I'm going to assume [t͡ɕʼ] was present in Proto-G/H, if such a language existed. 

[ə̃w̃ˈged.d͡ʑi] - [ˈptʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃ˈmoʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣˈɣãj̃] (Proto-E/F)
[əŋˈgɨ.t͡ɕʼi] - [ˈptɐn.də] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)

[əŋˈgeʔ.d͡ʑi] - [ˈptʰɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoʎ.ʎi] - [kaɣˈɣan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)

Again, I'm not entirely sure yet how to explain the ejective. I am not confident about the way I've reconstructed the first word here at all, but it may be the best I can do for now. 

I'm also somewhat uncertain about the voicing and place of articulation of the medial geminate in the fourth word. However, I feel like geminate voiced obstruents devoicing is more common than the reverse, and the shift from velar to uvular in Proto-G/H could help explain the correspondence between Proto-E/F [a] and Proto-G/H [ɑ] in the fourth word. 

[ˈge.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptʰɑn] - [ʔeˈmo.ɬæ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
[əŋˈgeʔ.d͡ʑi] - [ˈptʰɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoʎ.ʎi] - [kaɣˈɣan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)

[əŋˈged.d͡ʒe] - [ˈptʰɑn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoʎ̝.ʎ̝æ] - [kaɣˈɣan] (Proto-Western)

I suppose I'm assuming that geminate voiced obstruents in Proto-Western became short voiceless obstruents in Proto-A/B/C/D, resulting in the compensatory lengthening of only pretonic vowels, as in the fourth word. That doesn't quite feel right to me, but it's what I'm going with for now.

I figure that it's probably unnecessary to reconstruct a geminate [ʎ̝] rather than [ʎ] in the third word, but I chose to do so anyway based on the fact that its reflex is a voiceless lateral fricative in my reconstruction of Proto-A/B/C/D.

I'm not entirely certain about [-ndɨ] in the second word or [əŋ-] in the first word, in all honesty, but I suppose they're what I've decided on for now


I) [ˈʀedz] - [ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ] - [ø.ˈmʌlˤ] - [ˈaː]
J) [ˈʕets] - [u.ˈdɑɹ] - [y.ˈmoj] - [ˈah]

[ˈʀed͡z] - [oˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmoʎ] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)

K) [ˈʝe.ɟʝi] - [ɸu.ˈɾɑ] - [çi.ˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈha.ɦa]
L) [ˈʁe.ze] - [po.ˈrɑɹ] - [ʔe.ˈmo.je] - [ˈʔaː]

[ˈʁe.ɟ͡ʝe] - [ɸoˈɾɑɹ] - [heˈmo.ʎe] - [ˈha.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)

For the second word, I decided to reconstruct a medial tap, as in K, rather than a trill, as in L, based on the fact that some other cognates have [-d-]. 

Additionally, I reconstructed the initial consonant of the second word as [p-] at first, since [p] > [ɸ] feels more likely to me than [ɸ] > [p], but I suppose that kind of fortition isn't impossible. With that in mind, and also based on some of the word's cognates in neighboring languages, I've decided to go with reconstructing it as [ɸ-] for now. 

[ˈʀed͡z] - [oˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmoʎ] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
[ˈʁe.ɟ͡ʝe] - [ɸoˈɾɑɹ] - [heˈmo.ʎe] - [ˈha.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)

[ˈʁe.ɟ͡ʝe] - [ɸoˈdɑɹ] - [heˈmo.ʎe] - [ˈha.ɦa] (Proto-I/J/K/L)

For the first word, I'm not entirely sure why I chose [ʁ] instead of [ʀ], but that's what I'll go with for now. 

I'm currently assuming that the [ø] in my reconstruction of the third word in Proto-I/J is the result of an earlier [e] being rounded before [m], although I'm not sure if I'm entirely satisfied with that explanation. 

M) [ˈqa.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə] - [ˈaː.ha]
N) [ˈʔas.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə] - [ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈŋaːː.ha]

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔəˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)

O) [ˈχaː.ze] - [ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə] - [ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈhaː.ɦah]
P) [ˈqχaː.sə] - [pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔhaː.həː]

[ˈq͡χaː.se] - [p͡ɸɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔ͡hamˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔ͡haː.hah] (Proto-O/P)

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔəˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
[ˈq͡χaː.se] - [p͡ɸɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔ͡hamˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔ͡haː.hah] (Proto-O/P)

[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)

I'm somewhat troubled by the fact that, according to what I've reconstructed here, geminate consonants in Proto-M/N/O/P are preserved in Proto-M/N but shortened in Proto-O/P, resulting in the compensatory lengthening of the preceding vowel… except in the case of the geminate [m] in the third word, which is shortened in Proto-M/N but preserved in Proto-O/P. However, I'll leave things like this for now. If I'm not completely off track, perhaps this has something to do with the placement of stress?

I'm also uncertain about how to reconstruct the pretonic vowel in the second word. I've settled on [ɒ] for now based on the fact that many of the word's cognates have rounded vowels in that position, in addition to its outcome in my reconstruction of Proto-O/P. 

[ˈʁe.ɟ͡ʝe] - [ɸoˈdɑɹ] - [heˈmo.ʎe] - [ˈha.ɦa] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)

[ˈɢeɟ.ɟ͡ʝe] - [poˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔemˈmɒʎ.ʎe] - [ˈʔaː.hah] (Proto-Eastern)

I'm not entirely confident about [ɢ] in the first word, but it could explain both the voicing of [ʁ] and the MOA of [q]. 

Initially, I was uncertain about how to reconstruct the stressed vowel in the first word and the pretonic vowels in the second and third words in Proto-Eastern, in terms of height. I've ended up assuming that Proto-Eastern mid vowels were lowered in Proto-M/N/O/P when adjacent to a uvular or when followed by a low vowel in the next syllable, although I'm not entirely sure I'm satisfied with that.

I'm not entirely sure why I chose to reconstruct [ʔ] rather than [h] as the initial consonant of the third and forth words, but it's what I'll go with for now.

I'm also uncertain about the medial geminates in the first and third words, but again, I'll leave things as they are here for now. 


[əŋˈged.d͡ʒe] - [ˈptʰɑn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoʎ̝.ʎ̝æ] - [kaɣˈɣan] (Proto-Western)
[ˈɢeɟ.ɟ͡ʝe] - [poˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔemˈmɒʎ.ʎe] - [ˈʔaː.hah] (Proto-Eastern)

[ˈᴺɢeɟ.ɟ͡ʝe] - [poˈtɑᶯɖə] - [ʔemˈmɒʎ.ʎæ] - [qaʁˈʁan̥] (Proto-World)

There are a lot of things I'm uncertain about here, but that's to be expected on the first attempt, I suppose. The prenasalized stops, most of the vowels in the third word, and everything about the fourth word stand out in particular. 

For the fourth word, I am almost 100% certain that what I've reconstructed here is wildly incorrect, but it may be the best I can do for now.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Preliminary guess from me:
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

A     ˈga.ʃə        pəˈθɑn     ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə     ka.ˈxə̃
B     ˈɣaː.tʃ       pəˈtən     ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ     kaː.ˈxə̃
<     ˈga.tʃə       pəˈtɑn     ŋaː.ˈmoɬə     ka.ˈxə̃

Code: Select all

C     ˈɟe.tʃe         ˈtæn     ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ     kəː.ˈɣã
D     ˈgje.tʃe        ˈtʰen    je.ˈwõ.ɬa     kaː.ˈʔã
<     ˈgje.tʃe        ˈtæn     ɲẽ.ˈwõ.ɬæ     kaː.ˈɣã

Code: Select all

E  ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi      ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ   ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi   kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃
F  ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi      ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ   ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi   kax.ˈxãː
<  ə̃ː.ˈgej.tɕi      ˈpɾɐ̃ː.dɨ   ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi   kax.ˈxãː

Code: Select all

G    ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’          ˈt’ɐnd       ˈmʉʎ          ˈqχɑn
H  əŋ.ˈgətɕi         ˈpθən.də  ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi   kɑχ.ˈχɑn
<  əŋ.ˈgətɕi         ˈptɐn.də  ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi   kɑχ.ˈχɑn

Code: Select all

I     ˈʀedz          ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ     ø.ˈmʌlˤ         ˈaː
J     ˈʕets          u.ˈdɑɹ      y.ˈmoj          ˈah
<     ˈʁedz          o.ˈdɑɹ      ø.ˈmol          ˈah

Code: Select all

K     ˈʝe.ɟʝi       ɸu.ˈɾɑ      çi.ˈmo.ʎi     ˈha.ɦa
L     ˈʁe.ze        po.ˈrɑɹ     ʔe.ˈmo.je        ˈʔaː
<     ˈʁe.dze       po.ˈrɑɹ     he.ˈmo.ʎe     ˈha.ɦa

Code: Select all

M     ˈqa.sə        ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə    ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə     ˈaː.ha
N     ˈʔas.sə       ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə  ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə   ˈŋaːː.ha
<     ˈqa.sə        ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə   ʔə.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə   ˈʔaː.ha

Code: Select all

O     ˈχaː.ze       ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə   ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa  ˈhaː.ɦah
P     ˈqχaː.sə      pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə ˈʔhaː.həː
<     ˈqχaː.sə      pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.ɮə  ˈʔhaː.hah

Code: Select all

AB    ˈga.tʃə       pəˈtɑn     ŋaː.ˈmoɬə     ka.ˈxə̃
CD    ˈgje.tʃe        ˈtæn     ɲẽ.ˈwõ.ɬæ     kaː.ˈɣã
<     ˈge:.tʃe      pəˈtan     ŋe.ˈmo.ɬe     kaː.ˈxã

Code: Select all

EF ə̃ː.ˈgej.tɕi      ˈpɾɐ̃ː.dɨ   ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi   kax.ˈxãː
GH əŋ.ˈgətɕi         ˈptɐn.də  ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi   kɑχ.ˈχɑn
<   ŋ.ˈge.tɕi       ˈptan.dɨ   ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬi   kax.ˈxan

Code: Select all

IJ    ˈʁedz          o.ˈdɑɹ      ø.ˈmol          ˈah
KL    ˈʁe.dze       po.ˈrɑɹ     he.ˈmo.ʎe     ˈha.ɦa
<     ˈʁe.dze       po.ˈdɑɹ     he.ˈmo.le     ˈha.ɦa

Code: Select all

MN    ˈqa.sə        ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə   ʔə.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə   ˈʔaː.ha
OP    ˈqχaː.sə      pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.ɮə  ˈʔhaː.hah
<     ˈqχaː.sə      pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.ɮə  ˈʔhaː.hah

Code: Select all

ABCD     ˈge:.tʃe       pəˈtan     ŋe.ˈmo.ɬe     kaː.ˈxã
EFGH   ŋ.ˈge.tɕi       ˈptan.dɨ    ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬi    kax.ˈxan
<      ŋ.ˈge:.tɕe     pəˈtan.də    ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬe    kax.ˈxan

Code: Select all

IJKL     ˈʁe.dze       po.ˈdɑɹ     he.ˈmo.le     ˈha.ɦa
MNOP    ˈqχaː.sə      pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.ɮə  ˈʔhaː.hah
<         ɢaːtse       po.ˈdɑde    ʔe.ˈmoɮ.ɮe     ʔaː.hah

Code: Select all

ABCDEFGH  ŋ.ˈge:.tɕe     pəˈtan.də    ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬe    kax.ˈxan
IJKLMNOP     ɢaːtse       po.ˈdɑde    ʔe.ˈmoɮ.ɮe     ʔaː.hah
<         ŋ.ˈge:.tɕe     poˈtan.de    ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬe    kax.ˈxan
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Ratsawn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to Shimobaatar's post:
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 A) [ˈga.ʃə] - [pəˈθɑn] - [ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə] - [ka.ˈxə̃]
B) [ˈɣaː.tʃ] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ] - [kaː.ˈxə̃]

[ˈga.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtʰɑn] - [ŋaˈmo.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
Word 1: Mostly right, missing a segment
Word 2: Two incorrect segments
Word 3: Missing two segments
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I originally assumed that the correspondence between [θ] in A and [t] in B in the second word was due to some sort of intervocalic lenition process that took place in the history of A
Your original assumption was correct, the cognates developed their reflexes through different means.
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 C) [ˈɟe.tʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ] - [kəː.ˈɣã]
D) [ˈgje.tʃe] - [ˈtʰen] - [je.ˈw̃o.ɬa] - [kaː.ˈʔã]

[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈtʰæn] - [jeˈw̃o.ɬæ] - [kaːˈɣã] (Proto-C/D)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: You've interpreted the aspiration in D incorrectly, look at further cognates for help, otherwise correct
Word 3: You're missing two segments. Think about what may have caused some differences between C and D
Word 4: The first vowel is close, but off. The second consonant is also incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 At least for now, I think I'm going to assume that both instances of [æ] in C are directly inherited from Proto-C/D
That's true
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 [ˈga.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtʰɑn] - [ŋaˈmo.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈtʰæn] - [jeˈw̃o.ɬæ] - [kaːˈɣã] (Proto-C/D)

[ˈge.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptʰɑn] - [ʔeˈmo.ɬæ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
Word 1: Missing a segment
Word 2: Two incorrect segments, the vowel may be difficult to reconstruct
Word 3: The initial consonant and final vowel are off, and you're missing two segments
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I think I'll go with [ɑ] instead for now, although I'm not sure why Proto-A/B/C/D [ɑ] would have been fronted to [æ] in Proto-C/D when, for instance, [aː] in the fourth word was not fronted.
This is a reasonable assumption, however, [ɑ] is incorrect, so think about what vowel could have caused both fronting and backing.
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 E) [ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi] - [ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃]
F) [ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi] - [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ] - [ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi] - [kax.ˈxãː]

[ə̃w̃ˈged.d͡ʑi] - [ˈptʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃ˈmoʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣˈɣãj̃] (Proto-E/F)
Word 1: Close, only one segment has nasalization and you've misinterpreted a feature of two consonants
Word 2: Once again, only one segment is nasalized, and the second consonant is off
Word 3: Same problems as word 1
Word 4: Same problems as words 1 and 3
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 G) [ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕʼ] - [ˈtʼɐnd] - [ˈmʉʎ] - [ˈqχɑn]
H) [əŋ.ˈgətɕi] - [ˈpθən.də] - [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]

[əŋˈgɨ.t͡ɕʼi] - [ˈptɐn.də] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)
Word 1: The last consonant is incorrect
Word 2: The final vowel is off, look at cognates
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Close, the second and third consonants are off
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm not sure exactly how to explain the ejective in the first word in G
I admit this comes from a controversial source, but I think you can figure it out
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 [ə̃w̃ˈged.d͡ʑi] - [ˈptʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃ˈmoʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣˈɣãj̃] (Proto-E/F)
[əŋˈgɨ.t͡ɕʼi] - [ˈptɐn.də] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)

[əŋˈgeʔ.d͡ʑi] - [ˈptʰɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoʎ.ʎi] - [kaɣˈɣan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)
Word 1: Two incorrect segments
Word 2: One partially incorrect segment
Word 3: The final two consonants are incorrect, may be difficult to reconstruct
Word 4: The middle consonants are off
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I feel like geminate voiced obstruents devoicing is more common than the reverse
But not unheard of ;)
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 [ˈge.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptʰɑn] - [ʔeˈmo.ɬæ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
[əŋˈgeʔ.d͡ʑi] - [ˈptʰɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoʎ.ʎi] - [kaɣˈɣan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)

[əŋˈged.d͡ʒe] - [ˈptʰɑn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoʎ̝.ʎ̝æ] - [kaɣˈɣan] (Proto-Western)
Word 1: Reevaluate the whole first syllable, and the final two consonants are also incorrect
Word 2: The vowels are incorrect, and you have three partially incorrect consonants
Word 3: The lateral fricatives are off, and so is the final vowel
Word 4: The velar fricatives are off, and the final consonant is close but incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I suppose I'm assuming that geminate voiced obstruents in Proto-Western became short voiceless obstruents in Proto-A/B/C/D, resulting in the compensatory lengthening of only pretonic vowels, as in the fourth word
You're right about the lengthening here
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I figure that it's probably unnecessary to reconstruct a geminate [ʎ̝] rather than [ʎ] in the third word
Good choice, it's closer to the true value
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm not entirely certain about [-ndɨ] in the second word or [əŋ-] in the first word
These values you have chosen for these consonants are connected, both incorrect for the same reason
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I) [ˈʀedz] - [ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ] - [ø.ˈmʌlˤ] - [ˈaː]
J) [ˈʕets] - [u.ˈdɑɹ] - [y.ˈmoj] - [ˈah]

[ˈʀed͡z] - [oˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmoʎ] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
Word 1: One incorrect segment
Word 2: Basically correct, check the first vowel
Word 3: The final consonant is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 K) [ˈʝe.ɟʝi] - [ɸu.ˈɾɑ] - [çi.ˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈha.ɦa]
L) [ˈʁe.ze] - [po.ˈrɑɹ] - [ʔe.ˈmo.je] - [ˈʔaː]

[ˈʁe.ɟ͡ʝe] - [ɸoˈɾɑɹ] - [heˈmo.ʎe] - [ˈha.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)
Word 1: The whole second syllable is incorrect
Word 2: The first syllable is incorrect
Word 3: Only the stressed syllable is correct
Word 4: The initial consonant is off
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 For the second word, I decided to reconstruct a medial tap, as in K, rather than a trill, as in L
Good choice
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 Additionally, I reconstructed the initial consonant of the second word as [p-] at first
Should've gone with your gut. A lot of languages went through very similar changes independent of each other
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 [ˈʀed͡z] - [oˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmoʎ] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
[ˈʁe.ɟ͡ʝe] - [ɸoˈɾɑɹ] - [heˈmo.ʎe] - [ˈha.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)

[ˈʁe.ɟ͡ʝe] - [ɸoˈdɑɹ] - [heˈmo.ʎe] - [ˈha.ɦa] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
Word 1: The second syllable is incorrect
Word 2: The initial syllable is off, and you're missing a segment
Word 3: The initial consonant and final syllable are incorrect
Word 4: The consonants are both close, but off
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm currently assuming that the [ø] in my reconstruction of the third word in Proto-I/J is the result of an earlier [e] being rounded before [m], although I'm not sure if I'm entirely satisfied with that explanation.
That's exactly right
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 M) [ˈqa.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə] - [ˈaː.ha]
N) [ˈʔas.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə] - [ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈŋaːː.ha]

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔəˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: The first vowel is missing a feature, otherwise correct
Word 4: Correct
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 O) [ˈχaː.ze] - [ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə] - [ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈhaː.ɦah]
P) [ˈqχaː.sə] - [pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔhaː.həː]

[ˈq͡χaː.se] - [p͡ɸɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔ͡hamˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔ͡haː.hah] (Proto-O/P)
Word 1: The initial consonant is off
Word 2: Same problem as word 1, for the same reason
Word 3: The initial consonant once again is off, final syllable is incorrect
Word 4: Same problem as words 1 and 2
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 [ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔəˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
[ˈq͡χaː.se] - [p͡ɸɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔ͡hamˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔ͡haː.hah] (Proto-O/P)

[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Final vowel is incorrect
Word 4: One incorrect segment
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm somewhat troubled by the fact that, according to what I've reconstructed here, geminate consonants in Proto-M/N/O/P are preserved in Proto-M/N but shortened in Proto-O/P, resulting in the compensatory lengthening of the preceding vowel… except in the case of the geminate [m] in the third word, which is shortened in Proto-M/N but preserved in Proto-O/P
This change is conditioned by the MOA of the geminate consonants affected
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 [ˈʁe.ɟ͡ʝe] - [ɸoˈdɑɹ] - [heˈmo.ʎe] - [ˈha.ɦa] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)

[ˈɢeɟ.ɟ͡ʝe] - [poˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔemˈmɒʎ.ʎe] - [ˈʔaː.hah] (Proto-Eastern)
Word 1: Only the first vowel is correct
Word 2: Three incorrect segments
Word 3: Four incorrect segments
Word 4: One incorrect segment
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm not entirely confident about [ɢ] in the first word, but it could explain both the voicing of [ʁ] and the MOA of [q].
Only one of those reflexes is an innovation
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I've ended up assuming that Proto-Eastern mid vowels were lowered in Proto-M/N/O/P when adjacent to a uvular or when followed by a low vowel in the next syllable
You're right about the lowering, but the conditioning is MUCH simpler and affects more than just mid vowels
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm not entirely sure why I chose to reconstruct [ʔ] rather than [h] as the initial consonant of the third and forth words
Good choice, the [h] comes from lenition, though there is a medial stage in Proto-OP you missed
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm also uncertain about the medial geminates in the first and third words
The geminate qualities are correct here, though I can't say the same for what consonants you reconstructed
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 [əŋˈged.d͡ʒe] - [ˈptʰɑn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoʎ̝.ʎ̝æ] - [kaɣˈɣan] (Proto-Western)
[ˈɢeɟ.ɟ͡ʝe] - [poˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔemˈmɒʎ.ʎe] - [ˈʔaː.hah] (Proto-Eastern)

[ˈᴺɢeɟ.ɟ͡ʝe] - [poˈtɑᶯɖə] - [ʔemˈmɒʎ.ʎæ] - [qaʁˈʁan̥] (Proto-World)
Word 1: The medial consonants and final vowel are incorrect
Word 2: The first two vowels are off but close, and the third consonant is off
Word 3: [-ɒʎ.ʎæ] is all incorrect
Word 4: The medial consonants are off, and there's another problem, though if I say what it is it'll give away the correct response
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 There are a lot of things I'm uncertain about here, but that's to be expected on the first attempt, I suppose. The prenasalized stops, most of the vowels in the third word, and everything about the fourth word stand out in particular. 

For the fourth word, I am almost 100% certain that what I've reconstructed here is wildly incorrect, but it may be the best I can do for now.
The prenasalized stops are correct, though the POA of the retroflex one is incorrect. The third word vowels may be difficult to reconstruct outside of guesswork. The fourth word is surprisingly accurate, I'm especially impressed that you correctly identified the voiceless nasal.
I'll respond to sangi39's guesses soon, I'm having a lot of fun with these responses. Keep up the good work!
Ratsawn
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Posts: 8
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to sangi39's post
Spoiler:
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 A ˈga.ʃə pəˈθɑn ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə ka.ˈxə̃
B ˈɣaː.tʃ pəˈtən ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ kaː.ˈxə̃
< ˈga.tʃə pəˈtɑn ŋaː.ˈmoɬə ka.ˈxə̃
Word 1: Missing a segment
Word 2: The second vowel is off
Word 3: Missing a segment
Word 4: Missing a segment
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 C ˈɟe.tʃe ˈtæn ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ kəː.ˈɣã
D ˈgje.tʃe ˈtʰen je.ˈwõ.ɬa kaː.ˈʔã
< ˈgje.tʃe ˈtæn ɲẽ.ˈwõ.ɬæ kaː.ˈɣã
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Missing a segment
Word 3: The initial consonant is incorrect, missing two segments, the suprasegmentals are incorrect though they may help in determining at least one missing segment
Word 4: The first vowel and second consonant are off
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 E ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃
F ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi kax.ˈxãː
< ə̃ː.ˈgej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃ː.dɨ ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi kax.ˈxãː
Word 1: Two incorrect segments
Word 2: One partially incorrect segment and one fully incorrect segment
Word 3: Two incorrect segments
Word 4: One incorrect segments
Nearly all the errors are because the diphthongs in E require a different analysis than you provided
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 G ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’ ˈt’ɐnd ˈmʉʎ ˈqχɑn
H əŋ.ˈgətɕi ˈpθən.də ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi kɑχ.ˈχɑn
< əŋ.ˈgətɕi ˈptɐn.də ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi kɑχ.ˈχɑn
Word 1: The stressed vowel is off, and you're missing a segment
Word 2: The final vowel is off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: The medial consonants are close, but off
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 I ˈʀedz ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ ø.ˈmʌlˤ ˈaː
J ˈʕets u.ˈdɑɹ y.ˈmoj ˈah
< ˈʁedz o.ˈdɑɹ ø.ˈmol ˈah
Word 1: The consonants are off
Word 2: The initial vowel is off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 K ˈʝe.ɟʝi ɸu.ˈɾɑ çi.ˈmo.ʎi ˈha.ɦa
L ˈʁe.ze po.ˈrɑɹ ʔe.ˈmo.je ˈʔaː
< ˈʁe.dze po.ˈrɑɹ he.ˈmo.ʎe ˈha.ɦa
Word 1: The final vowel is off
Word 2: The initial vowel is off
Word 3: The initial and final syllables are wholly incorrect
Word 4: This initial consonant is off
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 M ˈqa.sə ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə ˈaː.ha
N ˈʔas.sə ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə ˈŋaːː.ha
< ˈqa.sə ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔə.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə ˈʔaː.ha
Word 1: Missing a segment
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: One partially incorrect segment
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 O ˈχaː.ze ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa ˈhaː.ɦah
P ˈqχaː.sə pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə ˈʔhaː.həː
< ˈqχaː.sə pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.ɮə ˈʔhaː.hah
Word 1: Two incorrect segments*
Word 2: Two incorrect segments*
Word 3: The schwas are incorrect, and another incorrect segment*
Word 4: Essentially correct*
*I should've mentioned in Shimobaatar's post, I didn't realize until now, O and P technically went through the same chain shift but stopped at different points in the chain. Your reconstructions of the initials and Shimobaatar's are essentially correct. To give you an idea of what I actually had in mind, think Ancient Greek. Sorry 'bout that.
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 AB ˈga.tʃə pəˈtɑn ŋaː.ˈmoɬə ka.ˈxə̃
CD ˈgje.tʃe ˈtæn ɲẽ.ˈwõ.ɬæ kaː.ˈɣã
< ˈge:.tʃe pəˈtan ŋe.ˈmo.ɬe kaː.ˈxã
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: One too many segments, and an incorrect segment
Word 3: Missing two segments, the final vowel is close but off
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 EF ə̃ː.ˈgej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃ː.dɨ ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi kax.ˈxãː
GH əŋ.ˈgətɕi ˈptɐn.də ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi kɑχ.ˈχɑn
< ŋ.ˈge.tɕi ˈptan.dɨ ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬi kax.ˈxan
Word 1: Missing two segments
Word 2: One incorrect segment
Word 3: Missing a segment, and two partially incorrect segments
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 IJ ˈʁedz o.ˈdɑɹ ø.ˈmol ˈah
KL ˈʁe.dze po.ˈrɑɹ he.ˈmo.ʎe ˈha.ɦa
< ˈʁe.dze po.ˈdɑɹ he.ˈmo.le ˈha.ɦa
Word 1: The second syllable is incorrect
Word 2: Missing a segment and one incorrect segment
Word 3: Two incorrect segments
Word 4: The consonants are incorrect
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 MN ˈqa.sə ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔə.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə ˈʔaː.ha
OP ˈqχaː.sə pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.ɮə ˈʔhaː.hah
< ˈqχaː.sə pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.ɮə ˈʔhaː.hah
Word 1: Three incorrect segments
Word 2: The initial syllable is incorrect
Word 3: Four incorrect segments
Word 4: Two incorrect segments
Something you thought was a retention in all the words of one group was actually an innovation, and vice versa
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 ABCD ˈge:.tʃe pəˈtan ŋe.ˈmo.ɬe kaː.ˈxã
EFGH ŋ.ˈge.tɕi ˈptan.dɨ ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬi kax.ˈxan
< ŋ.ˈge:.tɕe pəˈtan.də ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬe kax.ˈxan
Word 1: The consonants are off, and your vowel length can be explained by other means
Word 2: One extra segment, and the stressed vowel is off
Word 3: Missing a segment, and one incorrect segment
Word 4: One partially incorrect segment
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 IJKL ˈʁe.dze po.ˈdɑɹ he.ˈmo.le ˈha.ɦa
MNOP ˈqχaː.sə pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.ɮə ˈʔhaː.hah
< ɢaːtse po.ˈdɑde ʔe.ˈmoɮ.ɮe ʔaː.hah
Word 1: Only one correct segment
Word 2: All the vowels are incorrect, and one consonant
Word 3: Missing a segment, and three incorrect segments otherwise
Word 4: One incorrect segment
sangi39 wrote: 02 Sep 2020 21:54 ABCDEFGH ŋ.ˈge:.tɕe pəˈtan.də ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬe kax.ˈxan
IJKLMNOP ɢaːtse po.ˈdɑde ʔe.ˈmoɮ.ɮe ʔaː.hah
< ŋ.ˈge:.tɕe poˈtan.de ʔe.ˈmoɬ.ɬe kax.ˈxan
Word 1: One correct segment, the initial vowel (not its length though)
Word 2: No correct vowels, and two partially incorrect consonants
Word 3: Missing a segment, and three incorrect segments otherwise
Word 4: None of the consonants are correct (though the final is partially correct)

I thought it was interesting how you and Shimobaatar seemed to have different solutions for the same problems, and so you were right on different things. It's fun being the "host"
shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 I'm having a lot of fun with these responses.
I'm glad to hear it!  [:D] This has been fun on my end as well. Thanks for all your feedback!
Spoiler:
A) [ˈga.ʃə] - [pəˈθɑn] - [ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə] - [ka.ˈxə̃]
B) [ˈɣaː.tʃ] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ] - [kaː.ˈxə̃]

[ˈgat.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋamˈmoɬ.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: Mostly right, missing a segment
[…]
Word 3: Missing two segments
I was initially a bit stumped by this, but I'm hoping I've come to the right conclusion. 
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 2: Two incorrect segments
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Your original assumption was correct, the cognates developed their reflexes through different means.
Since one of the two seems to have been [tʰ], and A and B have [pə…n] in common, I'll try changing the stressed vowel as well. 

C) [ˈɟe.tʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ] - [kəː.ˈɣã]
D) [ˈgje.tʃe] - [ˈtʰen] - [je.ˈw̃o.ɬa] - [kaː.ˈʔã]

[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ŋjew̃ˈw̃o.ɬæ] - [kəːˈxã] (Proto-C/D)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 2: You've interpreted the aspiration in D incorrectly, look at further cognates for help, otherwise correct
Hmm… I feel like I could interpret this a few different ways, but for now I'm just going to keep it simple and change [tʰ] to [t]. 
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 3: You're missing two segments. Think about what may have caused some differences between C and D
Interesting… I'd originally assumed that, in D, nasalization had shifted from [w] onto [e], which had then caused [j] > [ɲ]. 

[ˈgat.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋamˈmoɬ.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ŋjew̃ˈw̃o.ɬæ] - [kəːˈxã] (Proto-C/D)

[ˈget.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptən] - [ŋemˈmoɬ.ɬə] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: Missing a segment
Word 2: Two incorrect segments, the vowel may be difficult to reconstruct
Word 3: The initial consonant and final vowel are off, and you're missing two segments
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 This is a reasonable assumption, however, [ɑ] is incorrect, so think about what vowel could have caused both fronting and backing.
I'm tentatively choosing [ə] for the difficult vowel in Word 2 and the final vowel in Word 3. 

E) [ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi] - [ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃]
F) [ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi] - [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ] - [ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi] - [kax.ˈxãː]

[əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣˈɣaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: Close, only one segment has nasalization and you've misinterpreted a feature of two consonants
Word 2: Once again, only one segment is nasalized, and the second consonant is off
Word 3: Same problems as word 1
Word 4: Same problems as words 1 and 3
Hmm… I can't say I'm too confident about my reconstructions here, but I suppose we'll see how things turn out.

Based on your comment below regarding the voicing of geminate consonants, I'm tentatively going to assume that's related to "you've misinterpreted a feature of two consonants" here. As for the nasalization, I feel like I'm probably not deviating enough from my original guess, but again, I suppose we'll see. 

G) [ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕʼ] - [ˈtʼɐnd] - [ˈmʉʎ] - [ˈqχɑn]
H) [əŋ.ˈgətɕi] - [ˈpθən.də] - [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]

[əŋˈgɨ.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑxˈxɑn] (Proto-G/H)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: The last consonant is incorrect
Word 2: The final vowel is off, look at cognates
[…]
Word 4: Close, the second and third consonants are off
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 I admit this comes from a controversial source, but I think you can figure it out
For now, I suppose I'm just going to assume [t͡ɕ] in Word 1 in Proto-G/H became [t͡ɕʼ] in G and that the geminate [x] in Word 4 became uvular in both G and H.

[əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣˈɣaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
[əŋˈgɨ.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑxˈxɑn] (Proto-G/H)

[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmol.li] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: Two incorrect segments
Word 2: One partially incorrect segment
Word 3: The final two consonants are incorrect, may be difficult to reconstruct
Word 4: The middle consonants are off
I'm rather stumped regarding what to replace the geminate [ʎ] with in Word 3. I think I'll just try [l] for now.  
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I feel like geminate voiced obstruents devoicing is more common than the reverse
But not unheard of ;)
Oh, really? Interesting! Do you know of any particular examples from natural languages? 

[ˈget.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptən] - [ŋemˈmoɬ.ɬə] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmol.li] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)

[ˈᵑget.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptə.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬi] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: Reevaluate the whole first syllable, and the final two consonants are also incorrect
Word 2: The vowels are incorrect, and you have three partially incorrect consonants
Word 3: The lateral fricatives are off, and so is the final vowel
Word 4: The velar fricatives are off, and the final consonant is close but incorrect
I'm not entirely confident about the vowels in Word 2 or the final vowel in Word 3, but we'll see how this turns out, I suppose. 

As for the final consonant in Word 4, I'm tentatively assuming it's the same as in my reconstruction of "Proto-World". 
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I figure that it's probably unnecessary to reconstruct a geminate [ʎ̝] rather than [ʎ] in the third word
Good choice, it's closer to the true value
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm not entirely certain about [-ndɨ] in the second word or [əŋ-] in the first word
These values you have chosen for these consonants are connected, both incorrect for the same reason
Very interesting! 


I) [ˈʀedz] - [ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ] - [ø.ˈmʌlˤ] - [ˈaː]
J) [ˈʕets] - [u.ˈdɑɹ] - [y.ˈmoj] - [ˈah]

[ˈʕed͡z] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: One incorrect segment
Word 2: Basically correct, check the first vowel
Word 3: The final consonant is incorrect
I guess I'll try assuming [ʕ] > [ʀ] instead of the reverse for Word 1. 

I wasn't sure whether to try [ɔ] or [u] for the first vowel in Word 2, but since pretonic [ø] > [y] seems to have taken place in Word 3 in J, I'll go with [ɔ] for now. 

K) [ˈʝe.ɟʝi] - [ɸu.ˈɾɑ] - [çi.ˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈha.ɦa]
L) [ˈʁe.ze] - [po.ˈrɑɹ] - [ʔe.ˈmo.je] - [ˈʔaː]

[ˈʁe.ɟi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: The whole second syllable is incorrect
Word 2: The first syllable is incorrect
Word 3: Only the stressed syllable is correct
Word 4: The initial consonant is off
I'd assumed that K raised unstressed mid vowels, but based on this, it now seems more like L lowered unstressed high vowels. 

Based on how your comment on Word 3 is worded, I'm assuming that [ʎ] is also incorrect, but as of right now, I can't think of anything better to replace it. 
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Should've gone with your gut. A lot of languages went through very similar changes independent of each other
Good to know!

[ˈʕed͡z] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
[ˈʁe.ɟi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)

[ˈʁe.ɟi] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: The second syllable is incorrect
Word 2: The initial syllable is off, and you're missing a segment
Word 3: The initial consonant and final syllable are incorrect
Word 4: The consonants are both close, but off
Oh, there's a segment missing from Word 2? Hmm… the only thing I can think of right now is that there was some final vowel that was lost in both I/J and K/L. As for the pretonic vowel in Word 2, I'm not entirely confident about choosing [ɔ] over [u], but I'll stick with it for now. 

M) [ˈqa.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə] - [ˈaː.ha]
N) [ˈʔas.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə] - [ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈŋaːː.ha]

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 3: The first vowel is missing a feature, otherwise correct
Perhaps [ə̃], then?

O) [ˈχaː.ze] - [ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə] - [ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈhaː.ɦah]
P) [ˈqχaː.sə] - [pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔhaː.həː]

[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: The initial consonant is off
Word 2: Same problem as word 1, for the same reason
Word 3: The initial consonant once again is off, final syllable is incorrect
Word 4: Same problem as words 1 and 2
Oh, interesting! I'm rather surprised to hear that about the initial consonants. Perhaps they were just aspirated stops, then? Although [ʔʰ] doesn't quite feel right. 

In hindsight, I'm not sure how I missed the final vowel in Word 3!

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)

[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔa.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 3: Final vowel is incorrect
Word 4: One incorrect segment
Again, I can't believe I overlooked that issue with the final vowel in Word 3 originally. Oh well!

As for the incorrect segment in Word 4, I'm rather stumped. I don't think this is correct, but for now, I'll just try reconstructing a short vowel. 
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 This change is conditioned by the MOA of the geminate consonants affected
Ah, makes sense!

[ˈʁe.ɟi] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N/O/P)

[ˈʁeɟ.ɟi] - [pɔˈdə.zɨ] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.hah] (Proto-Eastern)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: Only the first vowel is correct
Word 2: Three incorrect segments
Word 3: Four incorrect segments
Word 4: One incorrect segment
I'm particularly uncertain about the vowels and the sibilant in Word 2. The same goes for the final vowel in Word 3. 

Like for Proto-M/N/O/P, I'm going to tentatively reconstruct the stressed vowel in Word 4 as short, although I don't feel confident about that. 
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15
shimobaatar wrote: 02 Sep 2020 20:51 I'm not entirely confident about [ɢ] in the first word, but it could explain both the voicing of [ʁ] and the MOA of [q].
Only one of those reflexes is an innovation
Based on some of the word's cognates, I'm tentatively going to assume it was originally [ʁ]. 


[ˈᵑget.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptə.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬi] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
[ˈʁeɟ.ɟi] - [pɔˈdə.zɨ] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.hah] (Proto-Eastern)

[ˈᴺɢeɟ.ɟi] - [pɔˈtə.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈqaχχan̥] (Proto-World)
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 Word 1: The medial consonants and final vowel are incorrect
Word 2: The first two vowels are off but close, and the third consonant is off
Word 3: [-ɒʎ.ʎæ] is all incorrect
Word 4: The medial consonants are off, and there's another problem, though if I say what it is it'll give away the correct response
I'm not entirely confident about positing [ⁿd] > [z], but I'll stick with it for now.

For Word 4, I understand the position you're in as the host. For now, I'm going to assume the other issue has to do with stress placement.
Ratsawn wrote: 03 Sep 2020 18:15 The prenasalized stops are correct, though the POA of the retroflex one is incorrect. The third word vowels may be difficult to reconstruct outside of guesswork. The fourth word is surprisingly accurate, I'm especially impressed that you correctly identified the voiceless nasal.
Pleasantly surprised to see that the prenasalized stops, aside from the POA of the one in Word 2, and [-n̥] are correct!

As for the vowels, hopefully my guesswork this time around will bring me closer to the correct answers.
Ratsawn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to Shimobaatar's second attempt:
(just so everyone knows, I count vowel length as an independent segment, so if that is the "one incorrect segment", it is likely supposed to be a consonant)
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 A) [ˈga.ʃə] - [pəˈθɑn] - [ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə] - [ka.ˈxə̃]
B) [ˈɣaː.tʃ] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ] - [kaː.ˈxə̃]

[ˈgat.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋamˈmoɬ.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
Word 1: One incorrect segment
Word 2: One incorrect segment
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 Since one of the two seems to have been [tʰ], and A and B have [pə…n] in common, I'll try changing the stressed vowel as well.
Good choice changing the stressed vowel, but the quality is still not right
Word 3: Two incorrect segments
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 Ratsawn wrote: ↑03 Sep 2020 09:15
Word 1: Mostly right, missing a segment
[…]
Word 3: Missing two segments
I was initially a bit stumped by this, but I'm hoping I've come to the right conclusion.
Not quite, while your inference is logical, Proto-AB did not retain the geminates
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 C) [ˈɟe.tʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ] - [kəː.ˈɣã]
D) [ˈgje.tʃe] - [ˈtʰen] - [je.ˈw̃o.ɬa] - [kaː.ˈʔã]

[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ŋjew̃ˈw̃o.ɬæ] - [kəːˈxã] (Proto-C/D)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Missing a segment
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 Hmm… I feel like I could interpret this a few different ways, but for now I'm just going to keep it simple and change [tʰ] to [t].
Something external caused the aspiration, a segment that was lost
Word 3: One incorrect segment and one partially incorrect segment (hint: the nasalization was independently evolved in C and D)
Word 4: The first vowel is still incorrect, it may be unreconstructable. Try a combination of your first two guesses
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 [ˈgat.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋamˈmoɬ.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ŋjew̃ˈw̃o.ɬæ] - [kəːˈxã] (Proto-C/D)

[ˈget.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptən] - [ŋemˈmoɬ.ɬə] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
Word 1: One incorrect segment, see comment on word 3
Word 2: The vowel is still incorrect
Word 3: The final vowel is off (it's the same as Proto-World's final vowel) and the geminates were not retained in Proto-ABCD
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 E) [ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi] - [ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃]
F) [ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi] - [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ] - [ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi] - [kax.ˈxãː]

[əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣˈɣaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: The second consonant is still incorrect, may be very difficult to reconstruct
Word 3: Why did you devoice the geminate in word 1 but not here?
Word 4: Same comment as 3
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 Based on your comment below regarding the voicing of geminate consonants, I'm tentatively going to assume that's related to "you've misinterpreted a feature of two consonants" here. As for the nasalization, I feel like I'm probably not deviating enough from my original guess, but again, I suppose we'll see.
That was a correct assumption, but that comment applied to words 1, 3, AND 4. The nasalization didn't need much deviation. You nailed it
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 G) [ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕʼ] - [ˈtʼɐnd] - [ˈmʉʎ] - [ˈqχɑn]
H) [əŋ.ˈgətɕi] - [ˈpθən.də] - [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]

[əŋˈgɨ.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑxˈxɑn] (Proto-G/H)
Word 1: Missing a segment
Word 2: Correct!
In between [pt] and [t'] in 2, there was an intermediate stage. The ejective in one came from the same source as the one in word two, you just have to think of the intermediate stage.
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: I'd like to apologize, your original guess was correct. I must've been looking at H instead of Proto-GH
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 [əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣˈɣaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
[əŋˈgɨ.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑxˈxɑn] (Proto-G/H)

[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmol.li] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: The [l]s are incorrect, try thinking of the features of the reflexes, and preserve as many as you can. Once again, may be difficult to reconstruct
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 Oh, really? Interesting! Do you know of any particular examples from natural languages?
The index diachronica gives many of Proto-New-Caledonia's daughters [c:] to its voiced equivalent (plus aspiration), Proto-Northwest Caucasian [kjw:] to Ubykh [gj] and [kw:] to Abazgi [gw], the list is short but substantial. I admit that I made that sound change under the false pretense that Italian did that from Latin (I thought formaggio came from formaticum from an intermediate formatcio or formaccio, I didn't realize it was a borrowing and spontaneous gemination.)
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 [ˈget.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptən] - [ŋemˈmoɬ.ɬə] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmol.li] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)

[ˈᵑget.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptə.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬi] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
Word 1: The geminate is incorrect
Word 2: The stressed vowel is incorrect
Word 3: The final vowel is incorrect, it's a retention from Proto-World
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 I) [ˈʀedz] - [ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ] - [ø.ˈmʌlˤ] - [ˈaː]
J) [ˈʕets] - [u.ˈdɑɹ] - [y.ˈmoj] - [ˈah]

[ˈʕed͡z] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
Word 1: Now there's two incorrect segments, the initial consonant was already correct, you changed the wrong one
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 K) [ˈʝe.ɟʝi] - [ɸu.ˈɾɑ] - [çi.ˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈha.ɦa]
L) [ˈʁe.ze] - [po.ˈrɑɹ] - [ʔe.ˈmo.je] - [ˈʔaː]

[ˈʁe.ɟi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)
Word 1: The medial consonant is incorrect, you were closer with your original guess
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Just that [ʎ] is incorrect, the [ʎ] in K was a palatalization from the final vowel
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 [ˈʕed͡z] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
[ˈʁe.ɟi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)

[ˈʁe.ɟi] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
Word 1: The final syllable is incorrect, the final vowel may be difficult to reconstruct, it's the same as Proto-World
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: The final vowel is incorrect, it's the same as Proto-World
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 M) [ˈqa.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə] - [ˈaː.ha]
N) [ˈʔas.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə] - [ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈŋaːː.ha]

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Good job!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 O) [ˈχaː.ze] - [ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə] - [ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈhaː.ɦah]
P) [ˈqχaː.sə] - [pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔhaː.həː]

[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Good job!
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 [ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)

[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔa.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Missing a segment
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 As for the incorrect segment in Word 4, I'm rather stumped. I don't think this is correct, but for now, I'll just try reconstructing a short vowel.
I should've been more clear about what a segment was, see the top of this post and that should clear it up.
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 [ˈʁe.ɟi] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N/O/P)

[ˈʁeɟ.ɟi] - [pɔˈdə.zɨ] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.hah] (Proto-Eastern)
Word 1: Only the first two segments are correct, the rest of it is the same as Proto-World
Word 2: The stressed vowel and the final syllable are incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 I'm particularly uncertain about the vowels and the sibilant in Word 2
What makes you so sure it's a sibilant? (hint: think Mandarin) Also, you had a schwa for the final vowels of Proto-IJKL and Proto-MNOP. Why did you change it in their parent?
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Missing a segment
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 Like for Proto-M/N/O/P, I'm going to tentatively reconstruct the stressed vowel in Word 4 as short, although I don't feel confident about that.
You're right about the correct reconstruction being the same as Proto-MNOP.
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 [ˈᵑget.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptə.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬi] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
[ˈʁeɟ.ɟi] - [pɔˈdə.zɨ] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.hah] (Proto-Eastern)

[ˈᴺɢeɟ.ɟi] - [pɔˈtə.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈqaχχan̥] (Proto-World)
Word 1: The medial consonants and the final vowel are incorrect
Word 2: The stressed vowel is incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 I'm not entirely confident about positing [ⁿd] > [z], but I'll stick with it for now.
The [z] here is incorrect, but it might help in finding the correct reflex to know that there was an intermediate stage between [ⁿd] and [?].
Word 3: Correct! Woohoo!
Word 4: The medial consonants are still incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: 05 Sep 2020 00:37 As for the vowels, hopefully my guesswork this time around will bring me closer to the correct answers.
The stressed vowel in word 2 got destroyed in the daughters, but three retained its quality. If you look at the potential chain shifts the reflexes could have followed, it shouldn't be incredibly difficult to find your way to the original sound. Good guessing here! You got one word!
Also curious, how do you make a quote within a quote here?
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jimydog000
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 »

Here's my guess, I guess.
Spoiler:
AB:
1: ˈɣaː.tʃə
2: pəˈθɑn
3: ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə
4: kaː.ˈxə̃

CD:
1: ˈgje.tʃe
2: ˈtʰæn
3: ɲẽ.ˈw̃o.ɮæ
4: kəː.ˈɣã

EF:
1: ə̃w̃.ˈɰej.tɕi
2: ˈpɾɐ̃j̃.dɨ
3: ʔẽw̃.ˈmuj.ʃi
4: kax.ˈxãl

GH:
1: ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’
2: ˈpt’ɐn.də
3: ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi
4: ˈqaχ.ˈχɑn

IJ:
1: ˈʀedz
2: ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ
3: ø.ˈmʌlˤ
4: ˈah

LM:
1: ˈʝe.ɟʝi
2: ɸu.ˈɾɑɹ
3: hi.ˈmo.ʎe
4: ˈʔaː.ɦa

KLM:
1: ˈʝe.ɟʝi
2: ɸu.ˈɾɑɹ
3: hi.ˈmo.ʎe
4: ˈʔaː.ɦa

NO:
1: ˈχas.se
2: ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʐə
3: ʔhə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa
4: ˈhaːː.hah

P:
1: ˈqχaː.sə
2: pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə
3: ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə
4: ˈʔhaː.həː

***

ABCD:
1: ˈɣjaː.tʃe
2: pəˈθɑn
3: ɲa.ˈmo.ɬæ
4: kəː.ˈxə̃

EFGH:
1: ə̃w̃.ˈɰej.tɕi
2: ˈpɾɐ̃j̃.dɨ
3: ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʎ.ʃi
4: qaχ.ˈχɑl

IJKLM:
1: ˈʀeɟʝi
2: ɸɔ.ˈdʌɹ
3: hø.ˈmʌ.ʎe
4: ˈʔaː.ɦa

NOP:
1: ˈqχas.se
2: pɸø.ˈdɑː.ʐə
3: ʔhə̃m.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa
4: ˈhaːː.hah

***

ABCDEFGH:
1: ˈɣjə̃w̃.ˈɰej.tʃe
2: prəjˈtɑn
3: ʔẽw̃.ˈmoʎ.ʃæ
4: qaχ.ˈχɑ̃ɬ

IJKLMNOP:
1: ˈgχes.ʝi
2: pɸø.ˈdɑː.ʐə
3: ʔhə̃w.ˈmʌʎ.ɫa
4: ˈʔaːː.ɦah

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP:
1: ˈgχə̃w.ˈɰej.tʃe
2: pɸrøjˈtɑn.ʐə
3: ʔhẽw̃.ˈmʌʎ.ʃæ
4: qaχ.ˈχɑ̃ɬ
Joe Bloggs wrote:
Justin Time wrote:
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Also curious, how do you make a quote within a quote here?
I think you just nest them.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Yeah, quotes within quotes basically go:

Code: Select all


Your text, if any appears here

[quote=username1]

Username1's text, if any appears here

[quote=username2]

Username2's text, if any appears here

[quote=username3]

Username3's text, if any appears here

...

Continuation of Username2's text, if any appears here

To end Username3's quote [/quote]

Continuation of Username2's text, if any appears here

To end Username2's quote [/quote]

Continuation of Username1's text, if any appears here

To end Username1's quote [/quote]

Continuation of your text, if any appears here

And then to show how that appears:

Your text, if any appears here
username1 wrote:
Username1's text, if any appears here
username2 wrote:
Username2's text, if any appears here
username3 wrote:
Username3's text, if any appears here

...

Continuation of Username2's text, if any appears here

To end Username3's quote
Continuation of Username2's text, if any appears here

To end Username2's quote
Continuation of Username1's text, if any appears here

To end Username1's quote
Continuation of your text, if any appears here


You can break up someone's text as well, basically just following the same process, e.g.

Code: Select all


Your text, if any appears here

[quote=username1]

Username1's text, Part 1, if any appears here

[quote=username2]

Username2's text, if any appears here

To end Username2's quote [/quote]

Continuation of Username1's text, if any appears here

To end Part 1 Username1's quote [/quote]

Your text, if any appears here.

[quote=username1]

Continuation of Username1's text, Part 2, if any appears here

To end Username1's quote [/quote]

Continuation of your text, if any appears here

And to show how is appears:

Your text, if any appears here
username1 wrote:
Username1's text, Part 1, if any appears here
username2 wrote:
Username2's text, if any appears here

To end Username2's quote
Continuation of Username1's text, if any appears here

To end Part 1 Username1's quote
Your text, if any appears here.
username1 wrote:
Continuation of Username1's text, Part 2, if any appears here

To end Username1's quote
Continuation of your text, if any appears here



And that more or less covers it all [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by eldin raigmore »

Nested quotes deeper than three deep are a breach of netiquette. Or so I have been told; maybe that’s no longer true.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Hopefully a little closer:
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

A ˈga.ʃə   pəˈθɑn ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə   ka.ˈxə̃
B ˈɣaː.tʃ  pəˈtən ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ   kaː.ˈxə̃
< ˈgaː.tʃə pəˈtan ŋaː.ˈmoɬ.ɬə kaː.ˈxə̃

Code: Select all

C ˈɟe.tʃe  ˈtæn   ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ  kəː.ˈɣã
D ˈgje.tʃe ˈtʰen  je.ˈwõ.ɬa  kaː.ˈʔã
< ˈgje.tʃe ˈtʰæn  ŋje.ˈmo.ɬæ kɐː.ˈχã

Code: Select all

E ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃
F ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi kax.ˈxãː
< ə̃w.ˈgej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃j.dɨ ʔẽw.ˈmoʃ.ʃi kax.ˈxãj

Code: Select all

G ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’     ˈt’ɐnd      ˈmʉʎ         ˈqχɑn
H əŋ.ˈgətɕi   ˈpθən.də ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi kɑχ.ˈχɑn
< əŋ.ˈgɨt.tɕi ˈptɐn.dɨ ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi kɑq.ˈχɑn

Code: Select all

I ˈʀedz ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ ø.ˈmʌlˤ ˈaː
J ˈʕets u.ˈdɑɹ  y.ˈmoj  ˈah
< ˈʀets ɔ.ˈdɑɹ  ø.ˈmol  ˈah

Code: Select all

K ˈʝe.ɟʝi ɸu.ˈɾɑ  çi.ˈmo.ʎi ˈha.ɦa
L ˈʁe.ze  po.ˈrɑɹ ʔe.ˈmo.je ˈʔaː
< ˈʁe.dzi pu.ˈrɑɹ ʔi.ˈmo.li ˈʔa.ɦa

Code: Select all

M ˈqa.sə  ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə   ˈaː.ha
N ˈʔas.sə ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə ˈŋaːː.ha
< ˈqas.sə ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ʔə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə ˈʔaː.ha

Code: Select all

O ˈχaː.ze  ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə  ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa  ˈhaː.ɦah
P ˈqχaː.sə pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə ˈʔhaː.həː
< ˈqʰaː.sə pʰɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔʰam.ˈmɑː.ɮa ˈʔʰaː.hah

Code: Select all

AB ˈgaː.tʃə  pəˈtan   ŋaː.ˈmoɬ.ɬə  kaː.ˈxə̃
CD ˈgje.tʃe    ˈtʰæn  ŋje.ˈmo.ɬæ   kɐː.ˈχã
< ˈge:.tʃe     ˈptæn  ŋeː.ˈmoɬ.ɬa  kaː.ˈxã

Code: Select all

EF ə̃w.ˈgej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃j.dɨ  ʔẽw.ˈmoʃ.ʃi  kax.ˈxãj
GH əŋ.ˈgɨt.tɕi ˈptɐn.dɨ  ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi  kɑq.ˈχɑn
< əŋ.ˈget.tɕi  ˈptɐn.dɨ  ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi  kaχ.ˈχan

Code: Select all

IJ ˈʀets    ɔ.ˈdɑɹ   ø.ˈmol    ˈah
KL ˈʁe.dze  pu.ˈrɑɹ  ʔi.ˈmo.li ˈʔa.ɦa
<  ˈʁe.dze  pɔ.ˈdɑɹə ʔi.ˈmo.le ˈʔa.ha

Code: Select all

MN ˈqas.sə  ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə   ʔə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə   ˈʔaː.ha
OP ˈqʰaː.sə pʰɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ʔʰam.ˈmɑː.ɮa ˈʔʰaː.hah
<  ˈqas.sə  po.ˈdɑ.ʐə   ʔam.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa  ˈʔaː.hah

Code: Select all

ABCD ˈge:.tʃe      ˈptæn      ŋeː.ˈmoɬ.ɬa  kaː.ˈxã
EFGH  əŋ.ˈget.tɕi  ˈptɐn.dɨ   ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi  kax.ˈxan
<    ˈŋget.tʃe     ˈptɐn.də   ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi  kaχ.ˈχan

Code: Select all

IJKL ˈʁe.dze  pɔ.ˈdɑɹə   ʔi.ˈmo.le    ˈʔa.ha
MNOP ˈqas.sə  po.ˈdɑ.ʐə  ʔam.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa  ˈʔaː.hah
<    ˈɢet.sə  pɔ.ˈdɑɹə   ʔem.ˈmoɮ.ɮə   ʔah.hah

Code: Select all

ABCDEFGH ˈŋget.tʃe  ˈptɐn.də     ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi   kax.ˈxan
IJKLMNOP ˈɢet.sə     pɔ.ˈdɑɹə    ʔem.ˈmoɮ.ɮə   ʔaχ.χah 
<       ˈ ɴget.tse   pɔˈtɐ.ndə   ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi   qaχ.ˈχaɴ
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

eldin raigmore wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:12 Nested quotes deeper than three deep are a breach of netiquette. Or so I have been told; maybe that’s no longer true.
The more nesting I do, the more likely I am to cut bits out depending on what continues to be relevant to my reply.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Ratsawn
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Posts: 8
Joined: 31 Aug 2020 23:17

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to jimydog000
Spoiler:
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 AB:
1: ˈɣaː.tʃə
2: pəˈθɑn
3: ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə
4: kaː.ˈxə̃
Word 1: 1 incorrect segment
Word 2: 2 incorrect segments
Word 3: Missing 2 segments
Word 4: Correct!
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 CD:
1: ˈgje.tʃe
2: ˈtʰæn
3: ɲẽ.ˈw̃o.ɮæ
4: kəː.ˈɣã
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: One partially incorrect segment, missing a segment
Word 3: 1 incorrect segment, 2 partially incorrect segments, missing 2 segments
Word 4: 2 incorrect segments
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 EF:
1: ə̃w̃.ˈɰej.tɕi
2: ˈpɾɐ̃j̃.dɨ
3: ʔẽw̃.ˈmuj.ʃi
4: kax.ˈxãl
Word 1: 2 incorrect segments, one partially incorrect segment
Word 2: 2 partially incorrect segments
Word 3: 2 incorrect segments, 1 partially incorrect segment
Word 4: 1 incorrect segment, 1 partially incorrect segment
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 GH:
1: ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’
2: ˈpt’ɐn.də
3: ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi
4: ˈqaχ.ˈχɑn
Word 1: Missing three segments, 2 partially incorrect segments
Word 2: 1 incorrect segment, one partially incorrect segment
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: 3 incorrect segments
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 IJ:
1: ˈʀedz
2: ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ
3: ø.ˈmʌlˤ
4: ˈah
Word 1: 1 incorrect segment
Word 2: 1 incorrect segment, 1 partially incorrect segment
Word 3: Same problems as word 2
Word 4: Correct!
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 LM:
1: ˈʝe.ɟʝi
2: ɸu.ˈɾɑɹ
3: hi.ˈmo.ʎe
4: ˈʔaː.ɦa

KLM:
1: ˈʝe.ɟʝi
2: ɸu.ˈɾɑɹ
3: hi.ˈmo.ʎe
4: ˈʔaː.ɦa

NO:
1: ˈχas.se
2: ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʐə
3: ʔhə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa
4: ˈhaːː.hah

P:
1: ˈqχaː.sə
2: pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə
3: ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə
4: ˈʔhaː.həː
Wrong groupings here, sangi39 and Shimobaatar have them right.
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 ABCD:
1: ˈɣjaː.tʃe
2: pəˈθɑn
3: ɲa.ˈmo.ɬæ
4: kəː.ˈxə̃
Word 1: 3 incorrect segments
Word 2: 1 extra segment, 2 incorrect segments
Word 3: Three incorrect segments, missing 2 segments
Word 4: Two incorrect segments
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 EFGH:
1: ə̃w̃.ˈɰej.tɕi
2: ˈpɾɐ̃j̃.dɨ
3: ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʎ.ʃi
4: qaχ.ˈχɑl
Word 1: 3 correct segments
Word 2: 3 correct segments
Word 3: 3 correct segments
Word 4: 3 correct segments
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 IJKLM:
1: ˈʀeɟʝi
2: ɸɔ.ˈdʌɹ
3: hø.ˈmʌ.ʎe
4: ˈʔaː.ɦa

NOP:
1: ˈqχas.se
2: pɸø.ˈdɑː.ʐə
3: ʔhə̃m.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa
4: ˈhaːː.hah
Wrong groupings again
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 ABCDEFGH:
1: ˈɣjə̃w̃.ˈɰej.tʃe
2: prəjˈtɑn
3: ʔẽw̃.ˈmoʎ.ʃæ
4: qaχ.ˈχɑ̃ɬ
Word 1: Wildly incorrect, 2 correct segments
Word 2: Only the initial consonant is correct
Word 3: 3 correct segments
Word 4: 3 correct segments
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 IJKLMNOP:
1: ˈgχes.ʝi
2: pɸø.ˈdɑː.ʐə
3: ʔhə̃w.ˈmʌʎ.ɫa
4: ˈʔaːː.ɦah
Word 1: 1 correct segment
Word 2: 1 correct segment
Word 3: 1 correct segment
Word 4: Four correct segments
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Sep 2020 08:18 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP:
1: ˈgχə̃w.ˈɰej.tʃe
2: pɸrøjˈtɑn.ʐə
3: ʔhẽw̃.ˈmʌʎ.ʃæ
4: qaχ.ˈχɑ̃ɬ
Word 1: 1 correct segment
Word 2: 2 correct segments
Word 3: 1 correct segment
Word 4: 1 correct segment
Ratsawn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to sangi39's second post,
Spoiler:
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 A ˈga.ʃə pəˈθɑn ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə ka.ˈxə̃
B ˈɣaː.tʃ pəˈtən ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ kaː.ˈxə̃
< ˈgaː.tʃə pəˈtan ŋaː.ˈmoɬ.ɬə kaː.ˈxə̃
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: The stressed vowel is still incorrect
Word 3: 1 incorrect segment
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 C ˈɟe.tʃe ˈtæn ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ kəː.ˈɣã
D ˈgje.tʃe ˈtʰen je.ˈwõ.ɬa kaː.ˈʔã
< ˈgje.tʃe ˈtʰæn ŋje.ˈmo.ɬæ kɐː.ˈχã
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: You've misinterpreted the aspiration, see my comments for Shimobaatar
Word 3: Missing a segment
Word 4: The first vowel is incorrect, may be unreconstructable
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 E ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃
F ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi kax.ˈxãː
< ə̃w.ˈgej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃j.dɨ ʔẽw.ˈmoʃ.ʃi kax.ˈxãj
Word 1: 1 incorrect segment, two partially incorrect segments
Word 2: 3 partially incorrect segments
Word 3: 2 partially incorrect segments
Word 4: 2 partially incorrect segments
Think about where the nasalization comes from, and how that may affect its placement here
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 G ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’ ˈt’ɐnd ˈmʉʎ ˈqχɑn
H əŋ.ˈgətɕi ˈpθən.də ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi kɑχ.ˈχɑn
< əŋ.ˈgɨt.tɕi ˈptɐn.dɨ ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi kɑq.ˈχɑn
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: 2 incorrect segments, it seems you've confused the [qx] in G with the [x] in H, not with its actual correspondent, [k]
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 I ˈʀedz ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ ø.ˈmʌlˤ ˈaː
J ˈʕets u.ˈdɑɹ y.ˈmoj ˈah
< ˈʀets ɔ.ˈdɑɹ ø.ˈmol ˈah
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 K ˈʝe.ɟʝi ɸu.ˈɾɑ çi.ˈmo.ʎi ˈha.ɦa
L ˈʁe.ze po.ˈrɑɹ ʔe.ˈmo.je ˈʔaː
< ˈʁe.dzi pu.ˈrɑɹ ʔi.ˈmo.li ˈʔa.ɦa
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: 1 incorrect consonant
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 M ˈqa.sə ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə ˈaː.ha
N ˈʔas.sə ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə ˈŋaːː.ha
< ˈqas.sə ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə ˈʔaː.ha
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 O ˈχaː.ze ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa ˈhaː.ɦah
P ˈqχaː.sə pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə ˈʔhaː.həː
< ˈqʰaː.sə pʰɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔʰam.ˈmɑː.ɮa ˈʔʰaː.hah
Word 1: The final vowel is incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 AB ˈgaː.tʃə pəˈtan ŋaː.ˈmoɬ.ɬə kaː.ˈxə̃
CD ˈgje.tʃe ˈtʰæn ŋje.ˈmo.ɬæ kɐː.ˈχã
< ˈge:.tʃe ˈptæn ŋeː.ˈmoɬ.ɬa kaː.ˈxã
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: The vowel is incorrect
Word 3: Two incorrect segments
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 EF ə̃w.ˈgej.tɕi ˈpɾɐ̃j.dɨ ʔẽw.ˈmoʃ.ʃi kax.ˈxãj
GH əŋ.ˈgɨt.tɕi ˈptɐn.dɨ ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi kɑq.ˈχɑn
< əŋ.ˈget.tɕi ˈptɐn.dɨ ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi kaχ.ˈχan
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: The geminate fricatives have an additional feature you missed
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 IJ ˈʀets ɔ.ˈdɑɹ ø.ˈmol ˈah
KL ˈʁe.dze pu.ˈrɑɹ ʔi.ˈmo.li ˈʔa.ɦa
< ˈʁe.dze pɔ.ˈdɑɹə ʔi.ˈmo.le ˈʔa.ha
Word 1: The second syllable is incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: The unstressed vowels are incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 MN ˈqas.sə ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə ˈʔaː.ha
OP ˈqʰaː.sə pʰɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔʰam.ˈmɑː.ɮa ˈʔʰaː.hah
< ˈqas.sə po.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔam.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa ˈʔaː.hah
Word 1: The final vowel is incorrect
Word 2: The first vowel is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: 1 incorrect segment
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 ABCD ˈge:.tʃe ˈptæn ŋeː.ˈmoɬ.ɬa kaː.ˈxã
EFGH əŋ.ˈget.tɕi ˈptɐn.dɨ ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi kax.ˈxan
< ˈŋget.tʃe ˈptɐn.də ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi kaχ.ˈχan
Word 1: The affricate is close, but not quite
Word 2: Correct, but the nd sequence is technically a prenasalized stop
Word 3: The final vowel is incorrect
Word 4: The final consonant is missing a feature
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 IJKL ˈʁe.dze pɔ.ˈdɑɹə ʔi.ˈmo.le ˈʔa.ha
MNOP ˈqas.sə po.ˈdɑ.ʐə ʔam.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa ˈʔaː.hah
< ˈɢet.sə pɔ.ˈdɑɹə ʔem.ˈmoɮ.ɮə ʔah.hah
Word 1: Missing a segment, and two other incorrect segments
Word 2: The stressed vowel is incorrect
Word 3: The geminate laterals and the final vowel are incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2020 20:13 ABCDEFGH ˈŋget.tʃe ˈptɐn.də ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi kax.ˈxan
IJKLMNOP ˈɢet.sə pɔ.ˈdɑɹə ʔem.ˈmoɮ.ɮə ʔaχ.χah
< ˈ ɴget.tse pɔˈtɐ.ndə ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬi qaχ.ˈχaɴ
Word 1: The final vowel is incorrect
Word 2: Correct! Woohoo!
Word 3: The laterals and final vowel are incorrect
Word 4: The geminates and the final consonant are incorrect
I figure I'll wait for one more post from sangi39 and Shimobaatar, and then I'll reveal the answers and the winner, who presumably will create the next challenge.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Here's my third guess. I put it together a few days ago, but I wanted to wait for these responses to come in before posting it.
Ratsawn wrote: 09 Sep 2020 23:51 I figure I'll wait for one more post from sangi39 and Shimobaatar, and then I'll reveal the answers and the winner, who presumably will create the next challenge.
Oh, last round? Got it!

Spoiler:
A) [ˈga.ʃə] - [pəˈθɑn] - [ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə] - [ka.ˈxə̃]
B) [ˈɣaː.tʃ] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ] - [kaː.ˈxə̃]

[ˈgaː.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtɐn] - [ŋaːˈmoː.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: One incorrect segment
Word 2: One incorrect segment
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Good choice changing the stressed vowel, but the quality is still not right
Word 3: Two incorrect segments
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Not quite, while your inference is logical, Proto-AB did not retain the geminates
Hmm… based on this, and what you said about vowel length above, hopefully I've come to the right conclusion. 

As for the stressed vowel in Word 2, [ɐ] feels like a bit of a shot in the dark, but I'll stick with it for now. 

C) [ˈɟe.tʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ] - [kəː.ˈɣã]
D) [ˈgje.tʃe] - [ˈtʰen] - [je.ˈw̃o.ɬa] - [kaː.ˈʔã]

[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptæn] - [ŋjeˈmo.ɬæ] - [kɐːˈxã] (Proto-C/D)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 2: Missing a segment
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Something external caused the aspiration, a segment that was lost
Word 3: One incorrect segment and one partially incorrect segment (hint: the nasalization was independently evolved in C and D)
Word 4: The first vowel is still incorrect, it may be unreconstructable. Try a combination of your first two guesses
I'm pretty stumped on Word 3, but based on some of the word's cognates and some of my higher-level reconstructions, I might try [m] for now. 

A combination? Interesting… I suppose I'll try [ɐ], then. 

[ˈgaː.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtɐn] - [ŋaːˈmoː.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptæn] - [ŋjeˈmo.ɬæ] - [kɐːˈxã] (Proto-C/D)

[ˈget.t͡ʃə] - [ˈptɐn] - [ŋeˈmo.ɬɛ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: One incorrect segment, see comment on word 3
Word 2: The vowel is still incorrect
Word 3: The final vowel is off (it's the same as Proto-World's final vowel) and the geminates were not retained in Proto-ABCD
I'm guessing that means the final vowel in Word 1 is off. Hmm… my first two guesses had [-e], I believe, so maybe I'll switch to [-ə]. 

E) [ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi] - [ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃]
F) [ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi] - [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ] - [ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi] - [kax.ˈxãː]

[əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈpɾɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʃ.ʃi] - [kaxˈxaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 2: The second consonant is still incorrect, may be very difficult to reconstruct
Word 3: Why did you devoice the geminate in word 1 but not here?
Word 4: Same comment as 3
I doubt this is correct, but I'll try [ɾ] for the second consonant in Word 2. 

Huh, well… I can promise I intended to devoice all 3. I must have gotten momentarily distracted. Oh well!

G) [ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕʼ] - [ˈtʼɐnd] - [ˈmʉʎ] - [ˈqχɑn]
H) [əŋ.ˈgətɕi] - [ˈpθən.də] - [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]

[əŋˈgɨt.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: Missing a segment
[…]
In between [pt] and [t'] in 2, there was an intermediate stage. The ejective in one came from the same source as the one in word two, you just have to think of the intermediate stage.
[…]
Word 4: I'd like to apologize, your original guess was correct. I must've been looking at H instead of Proto-GH
If the missing segment in Word 1 ends up being something like what I've guessed here, I'm not sure how I didn't get it earlier. 

Regarding Word 4, no worries at all! It happens. 

[əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈpɾɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʃ.ʃi] - [kaxˈxaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
[əŋˈgɨt.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)

[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬi] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 3: The [l]s are incorrect, try thinking of the features of the reflexes, and preserve as many as you can. Once again, may be difficult to reconstruct
Perhaps [ɬ]?
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 The index diachronica gives many of Proto-New-Caledonia's daughters [c:] to its voiced equivalent (plus aspiration), Proto-Northwest Caucasian [kjw:] to Ubykh [gj] and [kw:] to Abazgi [gw], the list is short but substantial. I admit that I made that sound change under the false pretense that Italian did that from Latin (I thought formaggio came from formaticum from an intermediate formatcio or formaccio, I didn't realize it was a borrowing and spontaneous gemination.)
Thanks!

[ˈget.t͡ʃə] - [ˈptɐn] - [ŋeˈmo.ɬɛ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬi] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)

[ˈᵑget.t͡ɕe] - [ˈptɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬɛ] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: The geminate is incorrect
Word 2: The stressed vowel is incorrect
Word 3: The final vowel is incorrect, it's a retention from Proto-World
A few minor tweaks that will hopefully get me closer to guessing correctly. 


I) [ˈʀedz] - [ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ] - [ø.ˈmʌlˤ] - [ˈaː]
J) [ˈʕets] - [u.ˈdɑɹ] - [y.ˈmoj] - [ˈah]

[ˈʀet͡s] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: Now there's two incorrect segments, the initial consonant was already correct, you changed the wrong one
Oh, interesting! I didn't expect final voicing, if that's what actually happened. 

K) [ˈʝe.ɟʝi] - [ɸu.ˈɾɑ] - [çi.ˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈha.ɦa]
L) [ˈʁe.ze] - [po.ˈrɑɹ] - [ʔe.ˈmo.je] - [ˈʔaː]

[ˈʁe.d͡zi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: The medial consonant is incorrect, you were closer with your original guess
[…]
Word 3: Just that [ʎ] is incorrect, the [ʎ] in K was a palatalization from the final vowel
I'm not confident about this, but for now, I'll try [d͡z] in Word 1. As for Word 3, perhaps [l], then? 

[ˈʀet͡s] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
[ˈʁe.d͡zi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)

[ˈʁe.d͡zə] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: The final syllable is incorrect, the final vowel may be difficult to reconstruct, it's the same as Proto-World
[…]
Word 3: The final vowel is incorrect, it's the same as Proto-World
Interesting! Let's see how this turns out. 

M) [ˈqa.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə] - [ˈaː.ha]
N) [ˈʔas.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə] - [ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈŋaːː.ha]

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Good job!
Ah, thank you!

O) [ˈχaː.ze] - [ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə] - [ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈhaː.ɦah]
P) [ˈqχaː.sə] - [pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔhaː.həː]

[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Good job!
Thanks again! Your feedback has been invaluable, of course, and I'm glad to see I've put it to good use in at least some areas.  [:D] 

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)

[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 4: Missing a segment
[…]
I should've been more clear about what a segment was, see the top of this post and that should clear it up.
Oh, no worries! Thanks for clarifying now. Hopefully I'm closer to the "truth", so to speak, this time around. 

[ˈʁe.d͡zə] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)

[ˈʁed.d͡zə] - [pɔˈdɐ.ɻə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-Eastern)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: Only the first two segments are correct, the rest of it is the same as Proto-World
Word 2: The stressed vowel and the final syllable are incorrect
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 What makes you so sure it's a sibilant? (hint: think Mandarin) Also, you had a schwa for the final vowels of Proto-IJKL and Proto-MNOP. Why did you change it in their parent?
Oh, I wasn't very sure. I was just referring to the fact that there was a sibilant in my reconstruction at the time. Thinking of Mandarin has left me with [ɻ], although I'm not sure how I feel about that as the reflex of [ⁿd], since the intermediary stage you mention below eludes me, at least for now. 

As for why I changed the final schwa, my original guess was [poˈdɑ.ʐə], but after I was told there were 3 incorrect segments there, it seems like I must have gotten distracted and accidentally changed 4 of them. 
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 4: Missing a segment
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 You're right about the correct reconstruction being the same as Proto-MNOP.
Good to know!


[ˈᵑget.t͡ɕe] - [ˈptɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬɛ] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
[ˈʁed.d͡zə] - [pɔˈdɐ.ɻə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-Eastern)

[ˈᴺɢed.d͡zə] - [pɔˈtɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈqah.han̥] (Proto-World)
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Word 1: The medial consonants and the final vowel are incorrect
Word 2: The stressed vowel is incorrect
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 The stressed vowel in word 2 got destroyed in the daughters, but three retained its quality. If you look at the potential chain shifts the reflexes could have followed, it shouldn't be incredibly difficult to find your way to the original sound.
OK, for the final vowel in Word 1, my previous guesses were [-e] and [-i]. Based on your comments, it sounds like Proto-A/B/C/D, Proto-I/J/K/L, and Proto-Eastern all have the same final vowel in Word 1 as Proto-World. Interestingly, though, I've reconstructed a final [-e] for Word 1 in Proto-Western both times, and it doesn't seem like that's been incorrect. The vowel in Proto-A/B/C/D must be an innovation, then, but one that coincidentally resulted in the same vowel as in Proto-World. In the modern languages, the reflexes of this vowel appear to be [-e], [-i], [-ə], and Ø. With all this in mind, I think I'll try [-ə] this time.

I'm not sure how confident I am about reconstructing [-ə] as the final vowel for both Words 1 and 2, since nine of the modern languages, if I've counted correctly, appear to show different reflexes. However, I've reconstructed the final vowel of Word 2 as [-ə] for both of my previous guesses, and it doesn't seem like I've been told it's incorrect yet, so for now, I'm going to assume those differing reflexes are due to conditioned sound changes. 

I'm glad I apparently guessed the final vowel of Word 3 correctly, since that was very helpful for reconstructing some of the word's descendants. 
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 The [z] here is incorrect, but it might help in finding the correct reflex to know that there was an intermediate stage between [ⁿd] and [?].
[…]
Word 4: The medial consonants are still incorrect
As I mentioned above, I'm not sure what that intermediary stage might have been yet, but I'll keep thinking. 

As for Word 4, I'll try [h] this time. 
Ratsawn wrote: 05 Sep 2020 04:32 Good guessing here! You got one word!
Thank you!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I want to give other people time to respond (like Jimydog) either first or for a second time, before I take a stab at a third go [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Wow, I thought this thread was still dormant, and I created a challenge. It's great to see that it's active again.

1: ˈga.ʃə
2: pəˈθɑn
3: ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə
4: ka.ˈxə̃

B:
1: ˈɣaː.tʃ
2: pəˈtən
3: ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ
4: kaː.ˈxə̃

AB:
ga:tʃ
pətan
ŋaːmoːɬ
ka:xə̃

C:
1: ˈɟe.tʃe
2: ˈtæn
3: ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ
4: kəː.ˈɣã

D:
1: ˈgje.tʃe
2: ˈtʰen
3: je.ˈw̃o.ɬa
4: kaː.ˈʔã

ABCD:
gjatʃa
pətjan
ŋjamolja
kaxã


E:
1: ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi
2: ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ
3: ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi
4: kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃

F:
1: ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi
2: ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ
3: ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi
4: kax.ˈxãː

G:
1: ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’
2: ˈt’ɐnd
3: ˈmʉʎ
4: ˈqχɑn

H:
1: əŋ.ˈgətɕi
2: ˈpθən.də
3: ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi
4: kɑχ.ˈχɑn

EFGH:
əŋgəttɕi
ptəndə
ʔemmuʎʎi
kaxxan

A-H:
əŋgjattjə
pətjandə
ʔjəmmuljə
kaxxan


I:
1: ˈʀedz
2: ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ
3: ø.ˈmʌlˤ
4: ˈaː

J:
1: ˈʕets
2: u.ˈdɑɹ
3: y.ˈmoj
4: ˈah

K:
1: ˈʝe.ɟʝi
2: ɸu.ˈɾɑ
3: çi.ˈmo.ʎi
4: ˈha.ɦa

L:
1: ˈʁe.ze
2: po.ˈrɑɹ
3: ʔe.ˈmo.je
4: ˈʔaː

IJKL:
ɣedze
podar
hemolje
haha


M:
1: ˈqa.sə
2: ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə
3: ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə
4: ˈaː.ha

N:
1: ˈʔas.sə
2: ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə
3: ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə
4: ˈŋaːː.ha

O:
1: ˈχaː.ze
2: ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə
3: ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa
4: ˈhaː.ɦah

P:
1: ˈqχaː.sə
2: pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə
3: ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə
4: ˈʔhaː.həː

MNOP:

qase
pədɑʐə
hammaɬa
hahah~ʔahah

I-P:
qatse~ʀatse
podaro
hemolja
hahah~ʔahah

A-H:
əŋgjattjə ~ *əŋgɛtti
pətjandə ~ *pətɛndə
ʔjəmmuljə ~ *ʔimmuli - Fortition occurs in some cases before high vowels
kaxxan - /x/ may be uvular here, as this fortition occurs before /a/

A-P:

ɴ͡qjatjə ~ *ɴ͡qɛti
potjan͡tə ~ *potɛn͡tə
hjəmoljə ~ *himoli
qaxaN - N might be a voiceless nasal? if not, maybe ŋ?


As n͡t > r in I-P, maybe ɴ͡q > ʀ first by analogy? I like this Arve change.
ʀ then shifts to various reflexes *ʁ *ʕ *ʝ in IJKL, and goes back as *ʁ > *χ > *q in MNOP.
On the other hand, n͡t ɴ͡q voice to *nd *ŋg in A-H, and uvulars merge into velars there as well (although *kx shifts back to *qχ in G later)

Initial phonology guess:

/p t k q ʔ/
/m n (ŋ)/
/m͡p n͡t ŋ͡k ɴ͡q/
/s x~χ h/
/l j~i w~u/

/e ə o/
/a/

Maybe some sort of Caucasian thing with the vowels, such as /je we jə wə jo wo ja wa/ > /i y i u y u ɛ ɔ/?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 »

I attempted another attempt, but not enough to post.
“Your queen is a reptile.”
ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Revisions to my guesses:

*No need for voiceless prenasalized stops
*Word 4 can just end in /n/, as no other proto-word ends in a nasal

ɴ͡ɢjatjə ~ *ɴ͡ɢɛti
potjan͡də ~ *potɛn͡də
hjəmoljə ~ *himoli
qaxan

From A-H to proto-ABCD, there was a shift of *i > *jə, and *o e > u i (there was no original *e in the four proto-words).
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

In response to Shimobaatar's most recent post:
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 A) [ˈga.ʃə] - [pəˈθɑn] - [ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə] - [ka.ˈxə̃]
B) [ˈɣaː.tʃ] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ] - [kaː.ˈxə̃]

[ˈgaː.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtɐn] - [ŋaːˈmoː.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 C) [ˈɟe.tʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ] - [kəː.ˈɣã]
D) [ˈgje.tʃe] - [ˈtʰen] - [je.ˈw̃o.ɬa] - [kaː.ˈʔã]

[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptæn] - [ŋjeˈmo.ɬæ] - [kɐːˈxã] (Proto-C/D)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: The initial consonant is still off
Word 3: Missing a segment
Word 4: The long vowel is still off, I'm just gonna give it to you: [aə̯]. It was likely too difficult for anyone to reconstruct
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 I'm pretty stumped on Word 3, but based on some of the word's cognates and some of my higher-level reconstructions, I might try [m] for now.
So the [m] caused the nasalization in C and D, but that [w] didn't come out of nowhere.
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 [ˈgaː.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtɐn] - [ŋaːˈmoː.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptæn] - [ŋjeˈmo.ɬæ] - [kɐːˈxã] (Proto-C/D)

[ˈget.t͡ʃə] - [ˈptɐn] - [ŋeˈmo.ɬɛ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
Word 1: I need to be more clear with my comments, the final vowel was correct before [e], it was the geminates I was referring to.
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Missing two segments, when the geminates were lost, they left something behind
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 E) [ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi] - [ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃]
F) [ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi] - [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ] - [ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi] - [kax.ˈxãː]

[əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈpɾɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʃ.ʃi] - [kaxˈxaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: The [ɾ] is partially correct, it has an extra feature that contributed to its change to aspiration in E (this feature is not aspiration).
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 G) [ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕʼ] - [ˈtʼɐnd] - [ˈmʉʎ] - [ˈqχɑn]
H) [əŋ.ˈgətɕi] - [ˈpθən.də] - [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]

[əŋˈgɨt.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 [əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈpɾɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʃ.ʃi] - [kaxˈxaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
[əŋˈgɨt.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)

[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬi] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Closest guess on the geminate fricatives yet. I'll give it away, it was [ɬʲ]. I think the palatalization may have been too difficult to reconstruct.
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 [ˈget.t͡ʃə] - [ˈptɐn] - [ŋeˈmo.ɬɛ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬi] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)

[ˈᵑget.t͡ɕe] - [ˈptɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬɛ] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
Word 1: The geminate is still incorrect, it's a retention from Proto-World, and the palatalization happened independently in both ABCD and EFGH.
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 I) [ˈʀedz] - [ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ] - [ø.ˈmʌlˤ] - [ˈaː]
J) [ˈʕets] - [u.ˈdɑɹ] - [y.ˈmoj] - [ˈah]

[ˈʀet͡s] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 Oh, interesting! I didn't expect final voicing, if that's what actually happened.
I figured I'd take a page out of English's book with our final s becoming z in many instances.
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 K) [ˈʝe.ɟʝi] - [ɸu.ˈɾɑ] - [çi.ˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈha.ɦa]
L) [ˈʁe.ze] - [po.ˈrɑɹ] - [ʔe.ˈmo.je] - [ˈʔaː]

[ˈʁe.d͡zi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 [ˈʀet͡s] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
[ˈʁe.d͡zi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)

[ˈʁe.d͡zə] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
Word 1: The final syllable is still incorrect. For help with the vowel, I'd think of Latin to Romance when looking at its reflexes.
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 M) [ˈqa.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə] - [ˈaː.ha]
N) [ˈʔas.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə] - [ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈŋaːː.ha]

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
Great job again!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 O) [ˈχaː.ze] - [ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə] - [ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈhaː.ɦah]
P) [ˈqχaː.sə] - [pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔhaː.həː]

[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)
Great job again!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 [ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)

[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 [ˈʁe.d͡zə] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)

[ˈʁed.d͡zə] - [pɔˈdɐ.ɻə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-Eastern)
Word 1: The geminate is still incorrect and the final vowel is, the correct values are identical in Proto-World, Proto-Eastern, and IJKL (excluding the gemination in the latter).
Word 2: You're basically right, the last consonant should be alveolar (the Mandarin example I know has a few realizations).
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 [ˈᵑget.t͡ɕe] - [ˈptɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬɛ] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
[ˈʁed.d͡zə] - [pɔˈdɐ.ɻə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-Eastern)

[ˈᴺɢed.d͡zə] - [pɔˈtɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈqah.han̥] (Proto-World)
Word 1: The geminate and the final consonant are still incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 OK, for the final vowel in Word 1, my previous guesses were [-e] and [-i]. Based on your comments, it sounds like Proto-A/B/C/D, Proto-I/J/K/L, and Proto-Eastern all have the same final vowel in Word 1 as Proto-World. Interestingly, though, I've reconstructed a final [-e] for Word 1 in Proto-Western both times, and it doesn't seem like that's been incorrect. The vowel in Proto-A/B/C/D must be an innovation, then, but one that coincidentally resulted in the same vowel as in Proto-World. In the modern languages, the reflexes of this vowel appear to be [-e], [-i], [-ə], and Ø. With all this in mind, I think I'll try [-ə] this time.
The reflexes [ə] and Ø are merely a result of the lack of stress on the vowel. Focus more on the other two reflexes (again, consider Latin).

Overall, amazing work! You got three of the four words!
Shimobaatar correctly guessed words 2, 3, and 4. If anybody thinks they can get all four, then good luck. In a week or so, if nobody has guessed all four words correctly, I'll declare Shimobaatar the winner and reveal the true proto-forms and sound changes.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

So is protoword 1 *ɴ͡ɢeti ~ ɴ͡ɢetjə or *ɴ͡ɢete instead? (My previous guess had *ɛ~ja instead of *e) According to my reconstructed sound changes that would give *gitʃa for proto-ABCD, which I'm sure is wrong.
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