Quick Diachronics Challenge
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
So… I seem to have really gotten the wrong idea about the direction in which this thread was headed. From my perspective, it felt like there was a general trend towards "harder"/"longer" challenges each round, so I assumed that's what people wanted. Clearly, though, I took that idea too far and made the game too time-consuming and no longer enjoyable or appealing.
I'd really like for this game to continue, but I don't see the need to abandon this thread and start a new one.
I could either a) end the current round ASAP by naming whoever got closest the winner, or I could b) take the current "data set" and eliminate 2-3 of the words and at least half of the languages, along with revealing what people have already gotten correct to hopefully help things get wrapped up more quickly. I'm definitely leaning towards the first option, but sangi39 and ɶʙ ɞʛ, since you were the two participants in this round, what do you think? What would you prefer?
I'd really like for this game to continue, but I don't see the need to abandon this thread and start a new one.
I could either a) end the current round ASAP by naming whoever got closest the winner, or I could b) take the current "data set" and eliminate 2-3 of the words and at least half of the languages, along with revealing what people have already gotten correct to hopefully help things get wrapped up more quickly. I'm definitely leaning towards the first option, but sangi39 and ɶʙ ɞʛ, since you were the two participants in this round, what do you think? What would you prefer?
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
The first option seems better. Also, for future challenges, there should be a fixed number of guesses per player instead of continuing until someone gets the answer exactly correct.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm inclined to agree, but I'll give sangi39 some more time to weigh in before I "announce" anything.
The game has never been like that, at least not in my experience. In the past few rounds, it seems, people have managed to reconstruct the original forms exactly, but I don't remember that ever being a requirement for winning. Once the person whose turn it was decided that things had gone on long enough, they would end the round and declare whoever got closest the winner. For example, if this round hadn't failed, I would have announced a winner after participants had guessed at most 4-5 times, regardless of whether or not anyone had reconstructed any of the original forms with 100% accuracy.
Of course, I could be forgetting something, and this thread has been going on for longer than I've been playing, so it's certainly possible that this was once how things worked.
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'd agree as well (after, what, five and a half months without any activity, it doesn't seem to make too much sense to leave it hanging). What I will say, though, is that I've largely had to drop anything "big" as well, as work has continued to pile up on my end (more home-working shifts so that we don't fall behind), I've started playing DnD again as well, and other things going on, I don't think I'd really have time for even a small challenge. That being said, one of the other reasons I enjoyed this game was as a spectator, seeing what sorts of changes people guess from the data they had, so I'd like to see it carry on.shimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021 05:54I'm inclined to agree, but I'll give sangi39 some more time to weigh in before I "announce" anything.
I think this mostly depended on the user, and the time in the thread as well. Some people would go for a "three rounds, closest answer wins" sort of thing, others would add in extra data with each round or two, others would go for "exact answers or as close as" and run the game until then. Some used maps, others didn't. Some counted branching in their count of who won, others wouldn't. It's really more like a thread of a certain "kind" of game, than a unified, single, "one set of rules" type of thingshimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021 05:54The game has never been like that, at least not in my experience. In the past few rounds, it seems, people have managed to reconstruct the original forms exactly, but I don't remember that ever being a requirement for winning. Once the person whose turn it was decided that things had gone on long enough, they would end the round and declare whoever got closest the winner. For example, if this round hadn't failed, I would have announced a winner after participants had guessed at most 4-5 times, regardless of whether or not anyone had reconstructed any of the original forms with 100% accuracy.
Of course, I could be forgetting something, and this thread has been going on for longer than I've been playing, so it's certainly possible that this was once how things worked.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Glad we're all on the same page, then!sangi39 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021 22:17I'd agree as well (after, what, five and a half months without any activity, it doesn't seem to make too much sense to leave it hanging).shimobaatar wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021 05:54I'm inclined to agree, but I'll give sangi39 some more time to weigh in before I "announce" anything.
That's completely understandable, of course. I'm sorry to hear you've been so busy.sangi39 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021 22:17 What I will say, though, is that I've largely had to drop anything "big" as well, as work has continued to pile up on my end (more home-working shifts so that we don't fall behind), I've started playing DnD again as well, and other things going on, I don't think I'd really have time for even a small challenge. That being said, one of the other reasons I enjoyed this game was as a spectator, seeing what sorts of changes people guess from the data they had, so I'd like to see it carry on.
You won this round, actually, but given what you've said here, I assume you'd prefer to "pass" the next turn to ɶʙ ɞʛ?
As usual, here's a very rough "answer key" for this round:
Spoiler:
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Sorry, I was meant to reply, but, yeah, I'd be okay passing my turn
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
No worries! Thanks for the confirmation.
If possible, could you please merge this thread into this original one? I assume ɶʙ ɞʛ would like to use the same challenge that they posted there for their turn here.
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Ok, here is the new challenge.
1 /n͡dáfísḭ̂/
/m͡bét͡sḭ̂/
2 /n͡dáɸūsḭ̀/
/m͡bét͡sḭ̂/
3 /n͡dá̤ēɕì/
/m͡bét͡ɕì/
4 /oˈɾ̃at͡sə̰/
/ˈmaʈ͡ʂə̰/
5 /oˈɾat͡s'ə/
/ˈmɛʈ͡ʂ'ə/
6 /aˈnat͡s'i/
/ˈmjaʈ͡ʂ'i/
7 /aˈnwac'i/
/ˈmjaʈ͡ʂ'ɨ/
8 /oˈnɔ:t͡ɕḭ:/
/ˈmɨ:kʰɨ̰:/
9 /ˈnaɕɕigɨ/
/ˈmi:d͡ʑigɨ/
10 /ˈnɛʑigu/
/ˈme:ʑigu/
11 /ˈnɛsɪk/
/ˈme:ðɪk/
12 /ɔˈdɔn͡zɪk/
/ˈbʌn̪͡d̪ɪk/
13 /uˈdõx/
/ˈɓãx/
14 /ˈodãʃ/
/ˈpɪ̃t'/
15 /ˈhodɛ̃:ʃ/
/ˈɸẽtk/
16 /ˈɸudo:ʃ/
/ˈɸiʃ:/
17 /ˈɸudboʃ/
/ˈpit͡ʃ/
18 /ˈudvosik/
/ˈbiʒ:ik/
19 /ˈudu:ʃic/
/ˈbisac/
20 /ˈuðo:ʒiʃ/
/ˈðiʃiʃ/
21 /ˈulo:ziç/
/ˈd̼isiç/
22 /ˈiluzi:/
/ˈwei̯si:/
23 /ˈʏlrɪk/
/ˈwizɪk/
1 /n͡dáfísḭ̂/
/m͡bét͡sḭ̂/
2 /n͡dáɸūsḭ̀/
/m͡bét͡sḭ̂/
3 /n͡dá̤ēɕì/
/m͡bét͡ɕì/
4 /oˈɾ̃at͡sə̰/
/ˈmaʈ͡ʂə̰/
5 /oˈɾat͡s'ə/
/ˈmɛʈ͡ʂ'ə/
6 /aˈnat͡s'i/
/ˈmjaʈ͡ʂ'i/
7 /aˈnwac'i/
/ˈmjaʈ͡ʂ'ɨ/
8 /oˈnɔ:t͡ɕḭ:/
/ˈmɨ:kʰɨ̰:/
9 /ˈnaɕɕigɨ/
/ˈmi:d͡ʑigɨ/
10 /ˈnɛʑigu/
/ˈme:ʑigu/
11 /ˈnɛsɪk/
/ˈme:ðɪk/
12 /ɔˈdɔn͡zɪk/
/ˈbʌn̪͡d̪ɪk/
13 /uˈdõx/
/ˈɓãx/
14 /ˈodãʃ/
/ˈpɪ̃t'/
15 /ˈhodɛ̃:ʃ/
/ˈɸẽtk/
16 /ˈɸudo:ʃ/
/ˈɸiʃ:/
17 /ˈɸudboʃ/
/ˈpit͡ʃ/
18 /ˈudvosik/
/ˈbiʒ:ik/
19 /ˈudu:ʃic/
/ˈbisac/
20 /ˈuðo:ʒiʃ/
/ˈðiʃiʃ/
21 /ˈulo:ziç/
/ˈd̼isiç/
22 /ˈiluzi:/
/ˈwei̯si:/
23 /ˈʏlrɪk/
/ˈwizɪk/
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm not really sure about a lot of things, especially most of the groupings, but here's my first attempt:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Groupings 1-3, 4-8, 9-11, 22-23 are correct. Both protowords have 1 too many syllables, and there are several areal changes across group boundaries that result in convergent evolution.shimobaatar wrote: ↑05 Oct 2021 18:48 I'm not really sure about a lot of things, especially most of the groupings, but here's my first attempt:
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Here's my second attempt. Thanks for all your feedback. Hopefully I've gotten at least slightly closer.
Of course, if you'd prefer not to respond to this until someone else has submitted their first attempt, that's completely understandable.
Of course, if you'd prefer not to respond to this until someone else has submitted their first attempt, that's completely understandable.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
After more than a year of inactivity, I hope it is okay to post a new and very short challenge. Just six cognates, no map, probably some unforeseen consequences, all IPA.
Dwarfish: kezehize
Nymphish: cideceda
Orcish: kiaxia
Fairy-ish: sidiside
Goblinish: kiraikirai
Elvish: cilecira
Dwarfish: kezehize
Nymphish: cideceda
Orcish: kiaxia
Fairy-ish: sidiside
Goblinish: kiraikirai
Elvish: cilecira
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hmm
Gonna very quickly assert that there is no branching structure, all commonalities are merely retentions or convergences of some sort.
Since in each language, except Goblinish, the first half of the word is distinctly different from the other half, but each in a different part, I assert that the halves were initially different but similar words, rather than a complete reduplication, and have been merged by analogy, rather than separated by phonetic change.
I assert three general tendencies: lenition is generally favored, especially intervocalically, vowels generally become "more cardinal" in some 'weaker' positions (ie limited to the three values /a i u/), and in a pair of vowels experiencing intraword dissimilatory analogy, the first usually becomes higher, and the second lower - in essence, vowel ablaut. Additionally, I argue that reduplicative analogy is the strongest if the first syllables of the reduplicants are stressed, and argue that we should treat the words as "ditrochaic", or in the case of Goblinish as didactylic.
Accordingly, the differences between the pair of consonants in position 1 and 6 in Dwarfish and Orcish are asserted to be non-analogical, lenitive tendency, and both should be reconstructed as *k. Based on the alternation between positions 2 and 7 in Dwarfish contradicting our expected ablaut pattern, we reconstruct that the original pattern was likely mid-high. Consequently we have the form *ke(??)ki(??).
The only distinction found between the pair 3/8 is in Elvish, where the first becomes /l/ and the second /r/. We note that this is a particular position that appears to experience a lot of lenition, from complete loss in Orcish, to rhoticization and frication in Goblinish and Dwarfish, respectively. Accordingly, we note it would be unusual to make a difference between the two in reconstruction, when, having experienced heavy change, it is more likely that they would merge together, than remain separate. Accordingly, I reconstruct /d/ in both positions. For positions 4~5 and 9~10, we are more stuck. We can see that in Nymphish, Fairy-ish and Elvish we have an expected vowel ablaut pattern, but the other pattern could easily be the result of assimilatory analogy. Luckily, analogy generally tends to be weaker on diphthong elements like those found in Goblinish. Additionally, we would expect, by the general lenitive principle that the diphthong collapses, being in a "weak" unstressed position. We thus reconstruct *ai in this/these positions to get the protoform
*kedaikidai
Tried for a more principles-first approach to reconstructing here, given how minimal information was.
Code: Select all
1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
k|e|z|e| |h|i|z|e
c|i|d|e| |c|e|d|a
k|i| |a| |x|i| |a
s|i|d|i| |s|i|d|e
k|i|r|a|i|k|i|r|a|i
c|i|l|e| |c|i|r|a
Since in each language, except Goblinish, the first half of the word is distinctly different from the other half, but each in a different part, I assert that the halves were initially different but similar words, rather than a complete reduplication, and have been merged by analogy, rather than separated by phonetic change.
I assert three general tendencies: lenition is generally favored, especially intervocalically, vowels generally become "more cardinal" in some 'weaker' positions (ie limited to the three values /a i u/), and in a pair of vowels experiencing intraword dissimilatory analogy, the first usually becomes higher, and the second lower - in essence, vowel ablaut. Additionally, I argue that reduplicative analogy is the strongest if the first syllables of the reduplicants are stressed, and argue that we should treat the words as "ditrochaic", or in the case of Goblinish as didactylic.
Accordingly, the differences between the pair of consonants in position 1 and 6 in Dwarfish and Orcish are asserted to be non-analogical, lenitive tendency, and both should be reconstructed as *k. Based on the alternation between positions 2 and 7 in Dwarfish contradicting our expected ablaut pattern, we reconstruct that the original pattern was likely mid-high. Consequently we have the form *ke(??)ki(??).
The only distinction found between the pair 3/8 is in Elvish, where the first becomes /l/ and the second /r/. We note that this is a particular position that appears to experience a lot of lenition, from complete loss in Orcish, to rhoticization and frication in Goblinish and Dwarfish, respectively. Accordingly, we note it would be unusual to make a difference between the two in reconstruction, when, having experienced heavy change, it is more likely that they would merge together, than remain separate. Accordingly, I reconstruct /d/ in both positions. For positions 4~5 and 9~10, we are more stuck. We can see that in Nymphish, Fairy-ish and Elvish we have an expected vowel ablaut pattern, but the other pattern could easily be the result of assimilatory analogy. Luckily, analogy generally tends to be weaker on diphthong elements like those found in Goblinish. Additionally, we would expect, by the general lenitive principle that the diphthong collapses, being in a "weak" unstressed position. We thus reconstruct *ai in this/these positions to get the protoform
*kedaikidai
Tried for a more principles-first approach to reconstructing here, given how minimal information was.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Well, I think
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hmmm, I'm going to do some grouping, if I canCreyeditor wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023 01:47 After more than a year of inactivity, I hope it is okay to post a new and very short challenge. Just six cognates, no map, probably some unforeseen consequences, all IPA.
Dwarfish: kezehize
Nymphish: cideceda
Orcish: kiaxia
Fairy-ish: sidiside
Goblinish: kiraikirai
Elvish: cilecira
It looks like, as qwed117 noted, that this is reduplication, although I'm going to assume that it is in fact full reduplication. Given that assumption, it looks like Dwarfish and Orcish might be quite closely related, but showing lenition of the initial consonant in the second. On the other hand, there's Nymphish, Fairyish and Elvish which all show signs of palatalisation. Goblinish might be a conservative outlying, in that it shows neither of these features, but I don't think it's without innovation, i.e. the Goblinish word isn't identical to the ancestral form
If those assumptions are correct:
Proto-Dwarf-Orcish (PDO): *kizaxiza~*kizexize
Proto-Nymph-Fairy-Elvish (PNFE): *cidecida
Proto-Goblinish (PG): kiraikirai
There's definitely something going on with the vowels that I'm missing, though, possibly related to stress? Dwarfish has /e/ and /i/ where Orcish has just /i/, which might be a case of unstressed *i in PDO dropping to /e/ in Dwarfish. Similarly, there seems to a raising of the vowel in the second syllable compared to the fourth in the NFE languages, so presumably here, *a immediately before the stressed third syllable rose to *e, and then unstressed *e and *a in raised to /i/ and /e/ respectively in Fairyish
I would assume at this point that Proto-Goblinish might be more closely related to PDO, purely because of what looks like a lenited second and fourth consonant, possibly originally *z (with rhoticism in PG). The diphthong could be from an originally long consonant, which shortened in PDO, but diphthongised in PG (either that or it was originally a diphthong which became a simple long vowel in PDO, and then just short)
Proto-Goblin-Dwarf-Orcish (PGDO): *kizaikizai
Proto-Nymph-Fairy-Elvish (PNFE): *cidecida (older *cidacida)
Palatalisation in older PNFE is likely the innovation, and similarly lenition in PGDO is the innovation in that branch, so:
Proto-Word: kidaikidai (with stress on the third syllable)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I was messing around with sound changes the other day; the following all derive from the same word:
/ə̃ːx/
/uznædeː/
/ysɤseniθɤ̃zijeɰɤ̃n/
/ỹd͡ʒẽ/
Not actual conlangs, just an experiment.
I'll give you a hint as well:
/ə̃ːx/
/uznædeː/
/ysɤseniθɤ̃zijeɰɤ̃n/
/ỹd͡ʒẽ/
Not actual conlangs, just an experiment.
I'll give you a hint as well:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hi, Sketch! Welcome to the CBB
Just as a quick note, for this thread specifically, it is played one round at a time. So one person presents a group of words, everyone tries to guess the proto-word, until the original poster (OP) declares a winner (exactly what is considered a "winner" is pretty much down to the OP, as is how many "rounds" there are, how many clues they'll give, etc.). The winner then tends to post the next challenge, but if they choose to pass it on, or if the game becomes inactive (as happened before Creyeditor posted their challenge) it can pretty much become a free for all
The section version of this thread, Quick Diachronics Challenge v2, I think, is open for a new challenge if you wanted to post over there? Or if people are comfortable are taking on your challenge once Creyeditor's over, we can wait until then
Completely up to you, but thought I'd point out there's a challenge currently going on, and overlap tends to muddy the thread (think it's happened in the past and was a bit messy)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
@sangi
I will wait a few days before posting the solution just in case anyone else wants to join.
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Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I agree with sangi's analysis. However, I imagine the Proto-Word would be slightly different from their reconstruction.Creyeditor wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023 01:47 After more than a year of inactivity, I hope it is okay to post a new and very short challenge. Just six cognates, no map, probably some unforeseen consequences, all IPA.
Dwarfish: kezehize
Nymphish: cideceda
Orcish: kiaxia
Fairy-ish: sidiside
Goblinish: kiraikirai
Elvish: cilecira
I'm thinking something like *kilajkilaj, likewise with stress on the third syllable.
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The longing of the spirit can never be stilled.” ― St. Hildegard von Bingen
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
@GDD
A piece of advice: No non-ASCII IPA was involved in any intermediate or proto-form.
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"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics