Quick Diachronics Challenge
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hoping people might be up for picking this back up
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Ah, sorry, I forgot all about this. I'd certainly like to try, although I'm not sure how well I'll do.
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm mostly just hoping that a three months gap might have given people some spare timeshimobaatar wrote: ↑23 May 2019 19:48 Ah, sorry, I forgot all about this. I'd certainly like to try, although I'm not sure how well I'll do.
And, hey, at least you've already made a start
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Not sure how I did, but this was fun, as usual. Sorry again for letting this game slip my mind, but I'm glad I had time to do it now.
Reconstructed words:
Sound changes per word (not necessarily all in the right order):
Sound changes per language:
Reconstructed words:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Here's another one:
1- at’of, otsejes, inauf
2- at’ʊh, ɔtsʊiʃ, inauf
3- t’uf, tsu:ʃ, nɔ:f
4- aɗǝx, atsi:ç, inaux
5- at’uk, otsoits, inwok
6- at’ɨ:, tsø:ǝ, ino:.ɨ:
7- aɗɯ, dzoja, inawɯ
8- ali, zoe, ilau
9- anɨ, zoje, inowɨ
10- ats’i:, tʃe:a, inawi:
11- at’ɛθ, iʃoç, inauθ
12- t’ǝh, tsojǝh, nawǝh
13- ɗǝs, zoɉʝes, nab̪vos
14- lǝs, lodʒes, lavos
15- ɣɯ:, ɣoʒe:, ɣavo:
16- dıs, sɔdʒıs, nabʊs
17- tna, tʃʰaha, nwɔna
18- n̥a, ʃ:ehe, mon̥o
19- t’ah, s:jah, ⁿduǝh
20- atsa, os:ja:, ᵑɡwo:
1- at’of, otsejes, inauf
2- at’ʊh, ɔtsʊiʃ, inauf
3- t’uf, tsu:ʃ, nɔ:f
4- aɗǝx, atsi:ç, inaux
5- at’uk, otsoits, inwok
6- at’ɨ:, tsø:ǝ, ino:.ɨ:
7- aɗɯ, dzoja, inawɯ
8- ali, zoe, ilau
9- anɨ, zoje, inowɨ
10- ats’i:, tʃe:a, inawi:
11- at’ɛθ, iʃoç, inauθ
12- t’ǝh, tsojǝh, nawǝh
13- ɗǝs, zoɉʝes, nab̪vos
14- lǝs, lodʒes, lavos
15- ɣɯ:, ɣoʒe:, ɣavo:
16- dıs, sɔdʒıs, nabʊs
17- tna, tʃʰaha, nwɔna
18- n̥a, ʃ:ehe, mon̥o
19- t’ah, s:jah, ⁿduǝh
20- atsa, os:ja:, ᵑɡwo:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Well since no-one else has attempted a reconstruction since the "re-attempt", I can say, Shimobaatar, that you were almost spot on, at least in regards to the proto-forms.shimobaatar wrote: ↑23 May 2019 22:28 Not sure how I did, but this was fun, as usual. Sorry again for letting this game slip my mind, but I'm glad I had time to do it now.
Reconstructed words:Sound changes per word (not necessarily all in the right order):Spoiler:Sound changes per language:Spoiler:Spoiler:
The lines of direct descent are, as you might expect, vertical, running down from the proto-language to the descendent languages. The horizontal lines ( "<--->" ) mark instances of areal changes. For example, C and D both share the change *n > *0 syllable-finally, despite having split from the proto-language earlier.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Prelimary guess:ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: ↑02 Aug 2019 19:35 Here's another one:
1- at’of, otsejes, inauf
2- at’ʊh, ɔtsʊiʃ, inauf
3- t’uf, tsu:ʃ, nɔ:f
4- aɗǝx, atsi:ç, inaux
5- at’uk, otsoits, inwok
6- at’ɨ:, tsø:ǝ, ino:.ɨ:
7- aɗɯ, dzoja, inawɯ
8- ali, zoe, ilau
9- anɨ, zoje, inowɨ
10- ats’i:, tʃe:a, inawi:
11- at’ɛθ, iʃoç, inauθ
12- t’ǝh, tsojǝh, nawǝh
13- ɗǝs, zoɉʝes, nab̪vos
14- lǝs, lodʒes, lavos
15- ɣɯ:, ɣoʒe:, ɣavo:
16- dıs, sɔdʒıs, nabʊs
17- tna, tʃʰaha, nwɔna
18- n̥a, ʃ:ehe, mon̥o
19- t’ah, s:jah, ⁿduǝh
20- atsa, os:ja:, ᵑɡwo:
Spoiler:
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Hmm, I'm gonna go with
and I'll think of an explanation later
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Oh, wow, I did much better than I expected!
I was, at first, hoping to be able to go next, but I suppose that wouldn't really be fair since I was the only one who attempted after the fourth word was added, and in any case I see another round has already begun.
I've been working on this on and off throughout the day. I've assumed that the four groups separated out in the original post are four branches of the family, for convenience if nothing else. For each group, I started by making a list of shared changes, and then made lists of additional changes for each language within the group. The situation with this family is clearly more nuanced than what I was able to represent below, but I currently have neither the time nor the skills to do much better, I'm afraid.
"Proto-ABCD"
Spoiler:
1 - at'of, otsejes, inauf
2 - at'ʊh, ɔtsʊiʃ, inauf
3 - t'uf, tsuːʃ, nɔːf
4 - aɗǝx, atsiːç, inaux
5 - at'uk, otsoits, inwok
Spoiler:
6 - at'ɨː, tsøːǝ, inoː.ɨː
7 - aɗɯ, dzoja, inawɯ
8 - ali, zoe, ilau
9 - anɨ, zoje, inowɨ
10 - ats'iː, tʃeːa, inawiː
Spoiler:
11 - at'ɛθ, iʃoç, inauθ
12 - t'ǝh, tsojǝh, nawǝh
13 - ɗǝs, zoɟʝes, nab̪vos
14 - lǝs, lodʒes, lavos
15 - ɣɯː, ɣoʒeː, ɣavoː
16 - dɪs, sɔdʒɪs, nabʊs
Spoiler:
17 - tna, tʃʰaha, nwɔna
18 - n̥a, ʃːehe, mon̥o
19 - t'ah, sːjah, ⁿduǝh
20 - atsa, osːjaː, ᵑɡwoː
Spoiler:
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
*t' is correct in the first word.
Shimobaatar:
The Proto-B is very close. You may be forgetting about the possible formation of θ in proto-C.
Group A: The word-final /f/ was caused by labialization due to a rounded vowel.
Group B: The loss of what you assumed was /x/ happened early in Proto-B.
There is an /n̥/ at one point in the development of group C, but not where you assumed.
C > 13: /dʒ ɟʝ/ and /v b̪v/ did come from /j/ and /w/ at one point.
There are many cases of lenition like /ts/ > /s/, but there is also one case of /s/ > /ts/ in group A.
/tn/ in D is not rhinoglottophilia (i.e. /t' > tʔ > tn/)
Proto-language inventory:
/m n/
/p t k/
/b d/
/f s z ɣ/
/j w/
/a e i o u/
Clarification: /pp tt kk/ are realized as ejective, so that *t' is correct in the protolanguage.
Shimobaatar:
The Proto-B is very close. You may be forgetting about the possible formation of θ in proto-C.
Group A: The word-final /f/ was caused by labialization due to a rounded vowel.
Group B: The loss of what you assumed was /x/ happened early in Proto-B.
There is an /n̥/ at one point in the development of group C, but not where you assumed.
C > 13: /dʒ ɟʝ/ and /v b̪v/ did come from /j/ and /w/ at one point.
There are many cases of lenition like /ts/ > /s/, but there is also one case of /s/ > /ts/ in group A.
/tn/ in D is not rhinoglottophilia (i.e. /t' > tʔ > tn/)
Proto-language inventory:
/m n/
/p t k/
/b d/
/f s z ɣ/
/j w/
/a e i o u/
Clarification: /pp tt kk/ are realized as ejective, so that *t' is correct in the protolanguage.
Last edited by ɶʙ ɞʛ on 13 Aug 2019 23:28, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
that's the proto-language inventory? Now you've stumped me
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Is anyone still here? Would anyone like another hint?
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'd like to give it another go at some point, but since sangi39 and qwed117 seemed to indicate that they were planning to at least expand on their original responses:
I've been waiting/holding back in order to give them, or anyone else who might like to jump in, a chance to do so.
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I've been busy the last couple of weeks with reptiles and larp stuff, so I honestly haven't had time to give this even a cursory glance recently.shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Sep 2019 05:05 I'd like to give it another go at some point, but since sangi39 and qwed117 seemed to indicate that they were planning to at least expand on their original responses:
I've been waiting/holding back in order to give them, or anyone else who might like to jump in, a chance to do so.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm only on here very sporadically so don't feel bound out of some observance to me
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
My answer to a previous challenge
https://i.gyazo.com/996d5f4deda9560285b ... 6b0712.png
Group 1: ?iʈxa, æeʈxaj
Protoform: qiʈxaj
qiʈxaj > ?iʈxaj > ?iʈxa
qiʈxaj > ħæiʈxaj > æeʈxaj
Group 2A: enta, entak
Protoform: entajk
entajk > enta:k > entak
entajk > entajx > enta:h > enta
Group 2B: kʰentʰeɕ, kʰendeɕ, xandaɕ, xendʰaɕ
Protoform: kʰentʰɛɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰentʰeɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰendʰɛɕ > kʰendeɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰendʰɛɕ > xendʰaɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰɛndʰɛɕ > xandaɕ
Proto-2: kʰentʰajk
kʰentʰajk > kʰentʰac > kʰentʰɛɕ
kʰentʰajk > xentajk > entajk
Group 3: xɛʐiɕ, xeɖiɕ, kɛɖɦiɕ, kʰəʈeɕ
Protoform: kʰetʕiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > xɛɖiɕ > xɛʐiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > xeɖiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > keɖʕiɕ > kɛɖɦiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰətʕeɕ > kʰəʈeɕ
Proto-23: kʰentʰa.ik
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʕic > kʰetʕiɕ
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʰajk
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʕic > kʰeɳʈajɕ > keɻ̃ʈjaɕ > kew̃ʈjaɕ > kjuʈjaɕ
kʰentʰa.ik > xe:tajk > çe:dɛ:c > je:ɾɛ:ɕ
Proto-4: ŋeɳɖaŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > j̃eɳɖaw̃ > ĩɳɖõ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ŋeŋgaŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ɣe:ᶯɖa:ŋ > e:ᶯɖa:ŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ŋe:ᶯɖa:ŋ > ŋe:ɖa:ŋ
Overall proto-word: qʰentxajg
qʰentxajg > qe:ʈxaj > qiʈxaj
qʰentxajg > kʰenthajk > kʰentʰa.ik
qʰentxajg > qeɳʈajg > geɳɖajg > ŋeɳɖaŋ (q > g > ŋ seems more likely than q > ? > ŋ)
https://i.gyazo.com/996d5f4deda9560285b ... 6b0712.png
Group 1: ?iʈxa, æeʈxaj
Protoform: qiʈxaj
qiʈxaj > ?iʈxaj > ?iʈxa
qiʈxaj > ħæiʈxaj > æeʈxaj
Group 2A: enta, entak
Protoform: entajk
entajk > enta:k > entak
entajk > entajx > enta:h > enta
Group 2B: kʰentʰeɕ, kʰendeɕ, xandaɕ, xendʰaɕ
Protoform: kʰentʰɛɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰentʰeɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰendʰɛɕ > kʰendeɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰendʰɛɕ > xendʰaɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰɛndʰɛɕ > xandaɕ
Proto-2: kʰentʰajk
kʰentʰajk > kʰentʰac > kʰentʰɛɕ
kʰentʰajk > xentajk > entajk
Group 3: xɛʐiɕ, xeɖiɕ, kɛɖɦiɕ, kʰəʈeɕ
Protoform: kʰetʕiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > xɛɖiɕ > xɛʐiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > xeɖiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > keɖʕiɕ > kɛɖɦiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰətʕeɕ > kʰəʈeɕ
Proto-23: kʰentʰa.ik
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʕic > kʰetʕiɕ
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʰajk
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʕic > kʰeɳʈajɕ > keɻ̃ʈjaɕ > kew̃ʈjaɕ > kjuʈjaɕ
kʰentʰa.ik > xe:tajk > çe:dɛ:c > je:ɾɛ:ɕ
Proto-4: ŋeɳɖaŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > j̃eɳɖaw̃ > ĩɳɖõ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ŋeŋgaŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ɣe:ᶯɖa:ŋ > e:ᶯɖa:ŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ŋe:ᶯɖa:ŋ > ŋe:ɖa:ŋ
Overall proto-word: qʰentxajg
qʰentxajg > qe:ʈxaj > qiʈxaj
qʰentxajg > kʰenthajk > kʰentʰa.ik
qʰentxajg > qeɳʈajg > geɳɖajg > ŋeɳɖaŋ (q > g > ŋ seems more likely than q > ? > ŋ)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Did we not get an answer for this one?ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: ↑24 Sep 2019 05:31 My answer to a previous challenge
https://i.gyazo.com/996d5f4deda9560285b ... 6b0712.png
Group 1: ?iʈxa, æeʈxaj
Protoform: qiʈxaj
qiʈxaj > ?iʈxaj > ?iʈxa
qiʈxaj > ħæiʈxaj > æeʈxaj
Group 2A: enta, entak
Protoform: entajk
entajk > enta:k > entak
entajk > entajx > enta:h > enta
Group 2B: kʰentʰeɕ, kʰendeɕ, xandaɕ, xendʰaɕ
Protoform: kʰentʰɛɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰentʰeɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰendʰɛɕ > kʰendeɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰendʰɛɕ > xendʰaɕ
kʰentʰɛɕ > kʰɛndʰɛɕ > xandaɕ
Proto-2: kʰentʰajk
kʰentʰajk > kʰentʰac > kʰentʰɛɕ
kʰentʰajk > xentajk > entajk
Group 3: xɛʐiɕ, xeɖiɕ, kɛɖɦiɕ, kʰəʈeɕ
Protoform: kʰetʕiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > xɛɖiɕ > xɛʐiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > xeɖiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰedʕiɕ > keɖʕiɕ > kɛɖɦiɕ
kʰetʕiɕ > kʰətʕeɕ > kʰəʈeɕ
Proto-23: kʰentʰa.ik
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʕic > kʰetʕiɕ
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʰajk
kʰentʰa.ik > kʰentʕic > kʰeɳʈajɕ > keɻ̃ʈjaɕ > kew̃ʈjaɕ > kjuʈjaɕ
kʰentʰa.ik > xe:tajk > çe:dɛ:c > je:ɾɛ:ɕ
Proto-4: ŋeɳɖaŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > j̃eɳɖaw̃ > ĩɳɖõ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ŋeŋgaŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ɣe:ᶯɖa:ŋ > e:ᶯɖa:ŋ
ŋeɳɖaŋ > ŋe:ᶯɖa:ŋ > ŋe:ɖa:ŋ
Overall proto-word: qʰentxajg
qʰentxajg > qe:ʈxaj > qiʈxaj
qʰentxajg > kʰenthajk > kʰentʰa.ik
qʰentxajg > qeɳʈajg > geɳɖajg > ŋeɳɖaŋ (q > g > ŋ seems more likely than q > ? > ŋ)
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5853&hilit=%C4%A9%C ... 40#p248813
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Yes, we did earlier. However, I only came here recently, well after that challenge was solved.
Any guesses on the previous challenge I made?
Any guesses on the previous challenge I made?
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Other than to have a guess at:
I can't really say much else.
Spoiler:
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
attuɣ, etsois, inawuɣ:
How would you get /θ/ from /ɣ/? Also, in group 1, how did /e/ and /o/ switch, and where did the second /n/ come from in group 4?
How would you get /θ/ from /ɣ/? Also, in group 1, how did /e/ and /o/ switch, and where did the second /n/ come from in group 4?