Quick Diachronics Challenge

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2702
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

shimobaatar wrote:
29 Feb 2020 18:31
Just wanted to say that I am working on something for this thread, but I've been having a hard time feeling satisfied with anything I come up with. Sorry for the wait.
S'alright [:)] We've had longer waits [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7320
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Hopefully this will provide a sufficient challenge. [:)] I'm afraid I don't have the ability to create a map, but the way I've listed the languages below should be pretty straightforward. For instance, language A is spoken to the west of language B, language B is spoken to the east of language A and to the west of language C, language C is spoken to the east of language B and to the west of language D, and so on.

A [ˈfut͡ʃʏti] - [ˈʒet͡ʃu] - [pəˈvapan] - [xʏˈven]
B [ˈɸɔxxuteː] - [ˈjaxxoː] - [pawˈwaɸɸa] - [ʃuwˈwaː]
C [ɸɔːʃuˈdeɪ̯] - [ɲaːˈʃoʊ̯] - [ˈɸæːwaːβaː] - [ˈɸaː]
D [ɔʃˈteː] - [ɲaˈʃoː] - [ˈaːsaŋ] - [ˈaŋ]
E [ˈføːʰti] - [ˈnyːʃø] - [ˈfoːwaŋ] - [ˈkʰuːŋ]
F [ˈpyːd͡ʒiː] - [ˈnyːʒyː] - [puːˈwuːbm̩] - [ˈt͡ʃyːm]
G [ˈpoːɪ̯ði] - [ˈniːjø] - [ˈpwopan] - [ˈt͡ʃuːn]
H [ˈpoːʃt] - [ˈniːʃ] - [ˈpʰoppã] - [ˈksũː]
I [ˈkoloɪ̯t] - [ˈd͡ʒeɪ̯l] - [ˈgʱom] - [ˈʃõ]
J [ˈkoʎ̝ɟe] - [ˈd͡ʒeʎ̝ʎ̝o] - [kæˈŋoːβe] - [ˈʃuː]
K [ˈkaʊ̯ʃʃut͡si] - [ˈɖeʃʃu] - [ˈcʰoɸɸõ] - [ˈʂʈũ]
L [ˈkeʊ̯ɬɬti] - [ˈdriɬɬu] - [ˈθuɸɸa] - [ˈtrõ]
M [ˈkoʊ̯ɬɬuʔ] - [ˈniɬɬe] - [ˈkuːfaŋ] - [ˈnuŋ]
N [ˈʔaʊ̯ɬuk] - [ˈgeɬe] - [ˈʔaːʰpã] - [ˈrõ]
O [ˈkaːt͡ɬ] - [ˈdeɬeː] - [ˈskopãː] - [ˈɬõː]
P [ˈkoxt͡se] - [ˈd͡zeʝø] - [ˈkromb] - [ˈhon]
Last edited by shimobaatar on 19 Apr 2020 19:55, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2702
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Well this could be an fun one! [:D] I've got sleep and work to get through, but assuming I'm not working from home (I can't remember, lol), this could be tomorrow afternoon for me [:D]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2702
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Spoiler:
So, I could only take a quick 30 minute stab at this, which mostly consisted of trying to work out groupings.

What I have so far is a primary division between a Western branch (A through H), and an Eastern Branch (I through P), mainly based on the initials of the first two words, i.e. the Western Branch having labial and nasal initials vs. the velar and oral initials of the Eastern branch (barring exceptions like null initials of the nasal initial of M2, which I suspect is likely unconditional nasalisation of a voiced plosive).

It looks like these typically group in pairs, especially when looking, again, at the first two words, i.e. AB, CD, EF, GH in the west, then IJ, KL, MN, OP in the east (I quite like the Hawai'ian(?) pattern of coronals and dorsals shifting backwards to throw in that seemingly out-of-nowhere initial /g/ in N). This pattern seems to hold for the fourth word, but the third word appears to be one with a heavy amount of divergence, especially in the east.

It does seem, though, that these group into four major subgroups, i.e ABCD (Outer Western, or OW) and EFGH (Inner Western, or IW) in the west, vs IJKL (Inner Eastern, or IE) and MNOP (Outher Eastern, or OE) in the east.

The first two words definitely seem to be the most straightforward (they appears to come from something akin to **kʷoːɬutiː, and **d(r)eɬɬo, but I'll really need to look at that to make sure).

The fourth word could derive from something along the lines of, I'm really not sure, but **kroN ~ **kloN (one of the main difficulties here is which of the retroflex or the Cr cluster initials in KL is original).

The third word, though? That's a really tricky one. There seems to be the same *kʷ as in Word 1 (given the labial vs. velar divide between Western and Eastern), but there's something that might have been carried over into AB that's causing the **p to be retained, not to mention all of the what appear to be conditional sound changes in the Eastern language.


Anyway, I'll probably only have another hour tomorrow, but I'm hoping to have something more concrete down by Wednesday, or Friday at the latest.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2702
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

So, this has definitely been a challenge! [:D]
Spoiler:

NOTE: I've substituted out the lateral palatal fricative for <ɬʲ> just so I didn't miss any diacritics along the way

Code: Select all


P  [ˈkoːɬɬʲoteː] - [ˈɖeɬɬʲoː]  - [ˈskroːːppome] - [ˈkloːŋ]

W  [ˈpʰɔʃʃuteː]  - [ˈneʃʃoː]   - [spowˈwappan]  - [kjoːŋ]
OW [ˈɸɔʃʃuteː]   - [ˈɲaʃʃoː]   - [pawˈwappan]   - [ɧoːːŋ]
AB [ˈɸɔʃʃuteː]   - [ˈjaʃʃo:]   - [pawˈwappan]   - [ɧuwˈwen]
A  [ˈfutʃʏti]    - [ˈʒetʃu]    - [pəˈvapan]     - [xʏˈven]
B  [ˈɸɔxxuteː]   - [ˈjaxxoː]   - [pawˈwaɸɸa]    - [ʃuwˈwaː]
CD [ɸɔːʃuˈteː]   - [ɲaːˈʃoː]   - [ˈɸæːwaːβaŋ]   - [ˈfaŋ]
C  [ɸɔːʃuˈdeɪ]   - [ɲaːˈʃoʊ]   - [ˈɸæːwaːβaː]   - [ˈfaː]
D  [ɔʃˈteː]      - [ɲaˈʃoː]    - [ˈaːsaŋ]       - [ˈaŋ]
IW [ˈpoːʃtiː]    - [ˈniːʃøː]   - [ˈpoːwoːppaŋ] - [ˈKUːŋ]
EF [ˈpøːhtiː]    - [ˈnyːʃøː]   - [ˈpoːwoːbŋ]    - [ˈKUːŋ]
E  [ˈføːʰti]     - [ˈnyːʃø]    - [ˈfoːwaŋ]      - [ˈkʰuːŋ]
F  [ˈpyːdʒiː]    - [ˈnyːʒyː]   - [puːˈwuːbm̩]    - [ˈtʃyːm]
GH [ˈpoːʃti]     - [ˈniːʃø]    - [ˈpwoppan]     - [ˈXuːn]
G  [ˈpoːɪði]     - [ˈniːjø]    - [ˈpwopan]      - [ˈtʃuːn]
H  [ˈpoːʃt]      - [ˈniːʃ]     - [ˈpʰoppã]      - [ˈksũː]

E  [ˈkoːɬɬʲote]  - [ˈɖeɬɬʲoː]  - [ˈskroppome]   - [ˈtjuŋ]
IE [ˈkoːɬɬʲoci]  - [ˈɖeɬɬʲo]   - [ˈkjoppome]    - [ˈtjũ]
IJ [ˈkoɬʲoce]    - [ˈd͡ʒeʎʎo]  - [ˈkʰoʔʔome]    - [ˈʃũ]
I  [ˈkoloɪt]     - [ˈdʒeɪl]    - [ˈgʱom]        - [ˈʃõ]
J  [ˈkoɬʲɟe]     - [ˈdʒeɬʲɬʲo] - [kæˈŋoːβe]     - [ˈʃuː]
KL [ˈkaʊʃʃut͡si] - [ˈdreɬɬu]   - [ˈcʰoɸɸõ]      - [ˈtjũ]
K  [ˈkaʊʃʃutsi]  - [ˈɖeʃʃu]    - [ˈcʰoɸɸõ]      - [ˈʂʈũ]
L  [ˈkeʊɬɬti]    - [ˈdriɬɬu]   - [ˈθuɸɸa]       - [ˈdlõ]
OE [ˈkoːɬɬute]   - [ˈdiɬɬoː]   - [ˈskroːPPaŋ]   - [ˈluŋ]
MN [ˈkoʊɬɬut]    - [ˈdiɬɬe]    - [ˈkoːʰpaŋ]     - [ˈruŋ]
M  [ˈkoʊɬɬuʔ]    - [ˈniɬɬe]    - [ˈkuːfaŋ]      - [ˈnuŋ]
N  [ˈʔaʊɬuk]     - [ˈgeɬe]     - [ˈʔaːʰpã]      - [ˈrõ]
OP [ˈkoɬt͡se]    - [ˈdeɬoː]    - [ˈskropan]     - [ˈɬon]
O  [ˈkaːtɬ]      - [ˈdeɬeː]    - [ˈskopãː]      - [ˈɬõː]
P  [ˈkoxtse]     - [ˈdzeʝø]    - [ˈkromb]       - [ˈhon]
I'm severely unhappy with some of this reconstruction, but I think I'm certain of a few things:

1) The presence of an initial *s in Word 3 is what lead to the differing treatment of initials between it and Word 1 in the Outer Western Branch (it went down the route of English, developing aspirate when not preceded by /s/), and it was the aspirated forms which fricated.

2) The initial of Word 4 was likely a cluster of some kind, likely beginning with a velar or /s/, followed by an alveolar, probably /l/.

3) It wasn't a split of labialised /k/ which led to the East-West split, but differing treatment of a cluster (I think the East retained it, initially as *skr but later with later effects in the preceding velar, while in the west this *r shifted to /w/, resulting in a labialised velar which then become bilabial).

4) I'm hoping that the VwwV-like sequences in the Western branch result from a very early instance of fortition, possibly of an overlong vowel (with AB carrying on the sound change after the development of a new overlong vowel before a final nasal in Outer Western).

I'm unsure, though, about the initial of Word 2. It would mostly likely be voiced, and I'd suspect a plosive, but whether it was an alveolar cluster of some kind, or a simple retroflex, I have no idea.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7320
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Before I respond to sangi39, is anyone else interested in giving this a go?

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2702
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

shimobaatar wrote:
09 Mar 2020 11:36
Before I respond to sangi39, is anyone else interested in giving this a go?
Have to admit, a lack of reply from people like ɶʙ ɞʛ had me a tad shocked, but then again, maybe they've been busy, or taking a bit longer with it (on that note, I kind of rushed mine. I wanted to get it done before the end of the week, but a few problems at work left me less time than I wanted).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
Glass Half Baked
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 4
Joined: 06 Mar 2020 18:18

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Glass Half Baked »

I agree with most of sangi39's work, but I would add a couple of questions:
Spoiler:
Do we know that the initials in words one and two were not labiovelars? These could contrast with plain labials in the final syllable of word three, explaining some of the development in A and B.

Could the initial in word three simply be an aspirated version of the initial in word one? This leaves O as a mystery, but I am always anxious when linguists solve reconstruction problems by just piling consonants into a cluster and then selectively removing them, like a game of Jenga.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7320
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

I've completed my feedback for sangi39 and Glass Half Baked, but before I post it, I want to ask again if anyone else is planning on giving this a shot. I'd like to hold back on responding to anyone until at least two people (in total) have attempted relatively full reconstructions separately.

Believe me, I completely understand how busy life can be. So, even if you're not able to give it a go right away, please let me know if you'd like to try this challenge at some point in the coming week or so, whenever you have time.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7320
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Well, alright then!

In response to sangi39's first post:
Spoiler:
sangi39 wrote:
03 Mar 2020 00:38
What I have so far is a primary division between a Western branch (A through H), and an Eastern Branch (I through P) […]

It looks like these typically group in pairs, especially when looking, again, at the first two words, i.e. AB, CD, EF, GH in the west, then IJ, KL, MN, OP in the east […]. This pattern seems to hold for the fourth word, but the third word appears to be one with a heavy amount of divergence, especially in the east.

It does seem, though, that these group into four major subgroups, i.e ABCD (Outer Western, or OW) and EFGH (Inner Western, or IW) in the west, vs IJKL (Inner Eastern, or IE) and MNOP (Outher Eastern, or OE) in the east.
[tick] This is all spot-on, although I might recommend also keeping in mind the influence neighboring languages can have on one another, even if they aren't immediate "siblings", so to speak. For instance, H and I.  
sangi39 wrote:
03 Mar 2020 00:38
(barring exceptions like null initials of the nasal initial of M2, which I suspect is likely unconditional nasalisation of a voiced plosive).
  [cross] Not quite.
sangi39 wrote:
03 Mar 2020 00:38
(I quite like the Hawai'ian(?) pattern of coronals and dorsals shifting backwards to throw in that seemingly out-of-nowhere initial /g/ in N).
  [tick] Thank you! I was recently reminded of that shift and couldn't help myself.   [:D]
sangi39 wrote:
03 Mar 2020 00:38
The first two words definitely seem to be the most straightforward (they appears to come from something akin to **kʷoːɬutiː, and **d(r)eɬɬo, but I'll really need to look at that to make sure).
**kʷoːɬutiː - 2 correct segments
**d(r)eɬɬo - potentially 1 correct segment
sangi39 wrote:
03 Mar 2020 00:38
The fourth word could derive from something along the lines of, I'm really not sure, but **kroN ~ **kloN (one of the main difficulties here is which of the retroflex or the Cr cluster initials in KL is original).
sangi39 wrote:
03 Mar 2020 00:38
The third word, though? That's a really tricky one. There seems to be the same *kʷ as in Word 1 (given the labial vs. velar divide between Western and Eastern), but there's something that might have been carried over into AB that's causing the **p to be retained, not to mention all of the what appear to be conditional sound changes in the Eastern language.
**kroN ~ **kloN - potentially 3 correct segments
In response to sangi39's second post:
Spoiler:
In some instances, some of your reconstructed segments differ from those present in the forms on my "answer key" in ways that shouldn't make much of a difference (for instance, [nj] vs. [ɲ]). Especially for the lower-level reconstructions, I may ignore some of these minor differences and count what you have as correct (at least for now), but for the original proto-forms, I won't be as "lenient".

Also, I'm not sure what exactly some of the capital letters you've used, such as in [ˈKUːŋ] or [ˈXuːn] or [ˈskroːPPaŋ], are meant to represent, but I'll do my best to guess based on the rest of your reconstructions.
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
P [ˈkoːɬɬʲoteː] - [ˈɖeɬɬʲoː] - [ˈskroːːppome] - [ˈkloːŋ]
In terms of segments:

Word 1 - 2 correct
Word 2 - 0 correct
Word 3 - 0 correct
Word 4 - 2 correct
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
W [ˈpʰɔʃʃuteː] - [ˈneʃʃoː] - [spowˈwappan] - [kjoːŋ]
[…]
E [ˈkoːɬɬʲote] - [ˈɖeɬɬʲoː] - [ˈskroppome] - [ˈtjuŋ]
Proto-Western:
Word 1 - [-ʃʃuteː] is correct, and the beginning of the word is close enough to what I had in mind that it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Word 2 - The consonants are spot-on, and one of the vowels is only "wrong" in terms of length.
Word 3 - Significantly off-track, although not quite as much as the reconstruction of its eastern cognate. [-pan] is correct.
Word 4 - Half of the segments are correct.

Proto-Eastern:
Word 1 - The consonants are all either spot-on or close enough that it shouldn't matter. The vowels are all off, but not by too much, I suppose.
Word 2 - The consonants are either completely off or close enough. The first vowel is correct, but the final one is not.
Word 3 - Very far off, although I suppose one instance of [o] is correct.
Word 4 - None of the segments are correct, although the final two might be close enough.
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
OW [ˈɸɔʃʃuteː] - [ˈɲaʃʃoː] - [pawˈwappan] - [ɧoːːŋ]
[…]
IW [ˈpoːʃtiː] - [ˈniːʃøː] - [ˈpoːwoːppaŋ] - [ˈKUːŋ]
[…]
IE [ˈkoːɬɬʲoci] - [ˈɖeɬɬʲo] - [ˈkjoppome] - [ˈtjũ]
[…]
OE [ˈkoːɬɬute] - [ˈdiɬɬoː] - [ˈskroːPPaŋ] - [ˈluŋ]
Proto-OW:
Word 1 - Please see my comments for Proto-Western.
Word 2 - [-ʃʃoː] is correct, and the rest is probably close enough.
Word 3 - You're getting closer, but there are still 3 segments I'd consider incorrect.
Word 4 - Very far off-track.

Proto-IW:
Word 1 - Although not identical to what I have, this is essentially correct.
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - Not as close as your reconstruction of the Proto-OW cognate, but you're still getting closer, I'd say.
Word 4 - Assuming [KU] is something like [k(ʰ)u], you're close, but not quite there.

Proto-IE (not that one):
Word 1 - Only one segment is entirely correct, but the rest probably aren't far enough off-track to cause you any problems.
Word 2 - Please see my comments for Proto-Eastern.
Word 3 - Please see my comments for Proto-Eastern.
Word 4 - Please see my comments for Proto-Eastern.

Proto-OE:
Word 1 - Only one segment is off when compared to what I had in mind.
Word 2 - Only [-ɬɬ-] is correct.
Word 3 - Quite far off. I would say that only [a] is entirely correct.
Word 4 - Please see my comments for Proto-Eastern.
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
AB [ˈɸɔʃʃuteː] - [ˈjaʃʃo:] - [pawˈwappan] - [ɧuwˈwen]
[…]
CD [ɸɔːʃuˈteː] - [ɲaːˈʃoː] - [ˈɸæːwaːβaŋ] - [ˈfaŋ]
[…]
EF [ˈpøːhtiː] - [ˈnyːʃøː] - [ˈpoːwoːbŋ] - [ˈKUːŋ]
[…]
GH [ˈpoːʃti] - [ˈniːʃø] - [ˈpwoppan] - [ˈXuːn]
[…]
IJ [ˈkoɬʲoce] - [ˈd͡ʒeʎʎo] - [ˈkʰoʔʔome] - [ˈʃũ]
[…]
KL [ˈkaʊʃʃut͡si] - [ˈdreɬɬu] - [ˈcʰoɸɸõ] - [ˈtjũ]
[…]
MN [ˈkoʊɬɬut] - [ˈdiɬɬe] - [ˈkoːʰpaŋ] - [ˈruŋ]
[…]
OP [ˈkoɬt͡se] - [ˈdeɬoː] - [ˈskropan] - [ˈɬon]
Proto-AB:
Word 1 - Only one segment is partially off.
Word 2 - Only one segment is partially off.
Word 3 - The initial consonant, stressed vowel, and final syllable are all correct.
Word 4 - The initial consonant and stressed vowel are off. There's an additional issue shared by Words 3 and 4.

Proto-CD:
Word 1 - The last two syllables are entirely correct, and the rest of the word is close.
Word 2 - The initial consonant and final syllable are spot-on.
Word 3 - Only the [a] in the final syllable is entirely correct, but most of the rest of the word is fairly close, I'd say.
Word 4 - Only the vowel is entirely correct, but the rest of the word is likely close enough.

Proto-EF:
Word 1 - Only one segment is off.
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - The initial consonant and two instances of [oː] are correct.
Word 4 - Please see my comments for Proto-IW.

Proto-GH:
Word 1 - The medial cluster is off.
Word 2 - Only one segment is off.
Word 3 - The initial [p-] is correct, as is [-oppan].
Word 4 - Please see my comments for Proto-IW.

Proto-IJ:
Word 1 - Two of the consonants are off, but perhaps not significantly so.
Word 2 - The vowels are spot-on, and none of the consonants are troublingly off.
Word 3 - Out of all the segments, only one instance of [o] is correct.
Word 4 - Very close!

Proto-KL:
Word 1 - Only one consonant is entirely correct, but the others shouldn't make much of a difference.
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - Two segments are technically off, but very close.
Word 4 - The vowel is pretty close.

Proto-MN:
Word 1 - Only one segment is partially off.
Word 2 - The final syllable is correct.
Word 3 - Two segments are technically off, but very close.
Word 4 - The initial consonant is correct.

Proto-OP:
Word 1 - Only one segment is partially off.
Word 2 - Only one segment is partially off.
Word 3 - [-opan] is correct.
Word 4 - The initial consonant is off.
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
1) The presence of an initial *s in Word 3 is what lead to the differing treatment of initials between it and Word 1 in the Outer Western Branch (it went down the route of English, developing aspirate when not preceded by /s/), and it was the aspirated forms which fricated.
  [cross] You're on the right track thinking about aspiration, though.
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
2) The initial of Word 4 was likely a cluster of some kind, likely beginning with a velar or /s/, followed by an alveolar, probably /l/.
"a cluster of some kind"  [tick]
"beginning with a velar or /s/" [tick]
"followed by an alveolar" [tick]
"probably /l/" [cross]
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
3) It wasn't a split of labialised /k/ which led to the East-West split, but differing treatment of a cluster (I think the East retained it, initially as *skr but later with later effects in the preceding velar, while in the west this *r shifted to /w/, resulting in a labialised velar which then become bilabial).
[cross]
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
4) I'm hoping that the VwwV-like sequences in the Western branch result from a very early instance of fortition, possibly of an overlong vowel (with AB carrying on the sound change after the development of a new overlong vowel before a final nasal in Outer Western).
"fortition" [tick]
"very early" [cross]
"overlong vowel…" [cross]
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
I'm unsure, though, about the initial of Word 2. It would mostly likely be voiced, and I'd suspect a plosive, but whether it was an alveolar cluster of some kind, or a simple retroflex, I have no idea.
"alveolar cluster of some kind" [tick]
"simple retroflex" [cross]
In response to Glass Half Baked:
Spoiler:
Glass Half Baked wrote:
10 Mar 2020 12:45
Do we know that the initials in words one and two were not labiovelars? These could contrast with plain labials in the final syllable of word three, explaining some of the development in A and B.
I assume you mean "words one and three"? If so, this is spot-on. [tick]
Glass Half Baked wrote:
10 Mar 2020 12:45
Could the initial in word three simply be an aspirated version of the initial in word one? This leaves O as a mystery, but I am always anxious when linguists solve reconstruction problems by just piling consonants into a cluster and then selectively removing them, like a game of Jenga.
[tick] As I said to sangi39, you're on the right track thinking about aspiration. That's not quite the whole story, though.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2702
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Oh wow, I have a lot to go over with this one.

The capitals were basically instances of "I can't make up my mind, but something vaguely this", so "N" is just "some nasal, "K" was something like "a velar plosive maybe". I probably should have tried pinning them down.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7320
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

sangi39 wrote:
15 Mar 2020 19:12
Oh wow, I have a lot to go over with this one.

The capitals were basically instances of "I can't make up my mind, but something vaguely this", so "N" is just "some nasal, "K" was something like "a velar plosive maybe". I probably should have tried pinning them down.
No worries about the capital letters! Let me know if there's anything I need to clarify.

ɶʙ ɞʛ
sinic
sinic
Posts: 212
Joined: 02 Aug 2019 18:47

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

A [ˈfut͡ʃʏti] - [ˈʒet͡ʃu] - [pəˈvapan] - [xʏˈven]
B [ˈɸɔxxuteː] - [ˈjaxxoː] - [pawˈwaɸɸa] - [ʃuwˈwaː]
C [ɸɔːʃuˈdeɪ̯] - [ɲaːˈʃoʊ̯] - [ˈɸæːwaːβaː] - [ˈfaː]
D [ɔʃˈteː] - [ɲaˈʃoː] - [ˈaːsaŋ] - [ˈaŋ]

Proto-ABCD: [ɸokjute] - [ɲakjo] - [pajwaɸ:an] - [juw:an]

E [ˈføːʰti] - [ˈnyːʃø] - [ˈfoːwaŋ] - [ˈkʰuːŋ]
F [ˈpyːd͡ʒiː] - [ˈnyːʒyː] - [puːˈwuːbm̩] - [ˈt͡ʃyːm]
G [ˈpoːɪ̯ði] - [ˈniːjø] - [ˈpwopan] - [ˈt͡ʃuːn]
H [ˈpoːʃt] - [ˈniːʃ] - [ˈpʰoppã] - [ˈksũː]

Proto-EFGH: [poihti] - [nuitjo] - [powoban] - [ksun]

I [ˈkoloɪ̯t] - [ˈd͡ʒeɪ̯l] - [ˈgʱom] - [ˈʃõ]
J [ˈkoʎ̝ɟe] - [ˈd͡ʒeʎ̝ʎ̝o] - [kæˈŋoːβe] - [ˈʃuː]

Proto-IJ: [koloite] - [dʒeilo] - [gŋoβe] - [ʃoŋ]

K [ˈkaʊ̯ʃʃut͡si] - [ˈɖeʃʃu] - [ˈcʰoɸɸõ] - [ˈʂʈũ]
L [ˈkeʊ̯ɬɬti] - [ˈdriɬɬu] - [ˈθuɸɸa] - [ˈtrõ]
M [ˈkoʊ̯ɬɬuʔ] - [ˈniɬɬe] - [ˈkuːfaŋ] - [ˈnuŋ]
N [ˈʔaʊ̯ɬuk] - [ˈgeɬe] - [ˈʔaːʰpã] - [ˈrõ]

Proto-KLMN: [kauɬ:uki] - [driɬ:u] - [kjoɸ:aŋ] - [struŋ]

O [ˈkaːt͡ɬ] - [ˈdeɬeː] - [ˈskopãː] - [ˈɬõː]
P [ˈkoxt͡se] - [ˈd͡zeʝø] - [ˈkromb] - [ˈhon]

Proto-OP: [kahtɬe] - [deɬeu] - [skropan] - [ɬon]

Word 1: [ɸokjute] [poihti] < [pokjute]
[koloite] [kauɬ:uki] [kahtɬe] < [kahloite]
Proto-word 1: [kʷakloite]

Word 2: [ɲakjo] [nuitjo] < [njukjo]
[dʒeilo] [driɬ:u] [deɬeu] < [dretɬo]
Proto-word 2: [ndreklo]

Word 3: [pajwaɸ:an] [powoban] < [pojwapan]
[gŋoβe] [kjoɸ:aŋ] [skropan] < [skropan]
Proto-word 3: [srojwapan]

Word 4: [juw:an] [ksun] < [kjuan]
[ʃoŋ] [struŋ] [ɬon] < [slon]
Proto-word 4: [sluan]

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2702
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I don't think I'll be able to work on this now until the 11th of April. With everything going on with COVID-19, we've become a lot busier at work than everyone had originally expected so we're having to put in extra shifts to keep up with the work load (when doing my homeworking shifts, I could easily cram that into an hour and be comfortably done, now it's creeping up to three hours while having to intentionally leave stuff for when I'm at the office in the morning).

I'm still working on it, but only very vaguely, and for maybe a few minutes at a time.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7320
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

sangi39 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 21:59
I don't think I'll be able to work on this now until the 11th of April. With everything going on with COVID-19, we've become a lot busier at work than everyone had originally expected so we're having to put in extra shifts to keep up with the work load (when doing my homeworking shifts, I could easily cram that into an hour and be comfortably done, now it's creeping up to three hours while having to intentionally leave stuff for when I'm at the office in the morning).

I'm still working on it, but only very vaguely, and for maybe a few minutes at a time.
I'm sorry to hear that you're in this situation, but I understand, of course, and wish you the best.

I'd have no problem waiting until whenever you're able to return to this to give more feedback or announce results or whatever.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7320
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote:
31 Mar 2020 21:03
[…]
Just a small clarification before I start looking over what you have here: I assume that what you represent as, for instance, [au] is equivalent to what I represent as [aʊ̯] and not a sequence of two syllables, but what about [ua] in your reconstruction for the fourth word?

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2702
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

shimobaatar wrote:
31 Mar 2020 23:55
sangi39 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 21:59
I don't think I'll be able to work on this now until the 11th of April. With everything going on with COVID-19, we've become a lot busier at work than everyone had originally expected so we're having to put in extra shifts to keep up with the work load (when doing my homeworking shifts, I could easily cram that into an hour and be comfortably done, now it's creeping up to three hours while having to intentionally leave stuff for when I'm at the office in the morning).

I'm still working on it, but only very vaguely, and for maybe a few minutes at a time.
I'm sorry to hear that you're in this situation, but I understand, of course, and wish you the best.

I'd have no problem waiting until whenever you're able to return to this to give more feedback or announce results or whatever.
We are indeed living in interesting times.

The 11th there marks the start of 16 days off work for me that was originally meant to be for travel, but that's not happening any more [:P] The plan is to throw myself back into this challenge, and some conlanging in general. Feel like I've neglected it overall.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

ɶʙ ɞʛ
sinic
sinic
Posts: 212
Joined: 02 Aug 2019 18:47

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

shimobaatar wrote:
31 Mar 2020 23:58
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote:
31 Mar 2020 21:03
[…]
Just a small clarification before I start looking over what you have here: I assume that what you represent as, for instance, [au] is equivalent to what I represent as [aʊ̯] and not a sequence of two syllables, but what about [ua] in your reconstruction for the fourth word?

That is probably two separate syllables.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7320
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

sangi39 wrote:
01 Apr 2020 00:10
shimobaatar wrote:
31 Mar 2020 23:55
sangi39 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 21:59
I don't think I'll be able to work on this now until the 11th of April. With everything going on with COVID-19, we've become a lot busier at work than everyone had originally expected so we're having to put in extra shifts to keep up with the work load (when doing my homeworking shifts, I could easily cram that into an hour and be comfortably done, now it's creeping up to three hours while having to intentionally leave stuff for when I'm at the office in the morning).

I'm still working on it, but only very vaguely, and for maybe a few minutes at a time.
I'm sorry to hear that you're in this situation, but I understand, of course, and wish you the best.

I'd have no problem waiting until whenever you're able to return to this to give more feedback or announce results or whatever.
We are indeed living in interesting times.

The 11th there marks the start of 16 days off work for me that was originally meant to be for travel, but that's not happening any more [:P] The plan is to throw myself back into this challenge, and some conlanging in general. Feel like I've neglected it overall.
That we certainly are, to say the least!

Godspeed until then!

One very, very quick note for you, sangi39, about something that I hadn't noticed until just now:
Spoiler:
sangi39 wrote:
06 Mar 2020 22:10
L [ˈkeʊɬɬti] - [ˈdriɬɬu] - [ˈθuɸɸa] - [ˈdlõ]
(Emphasis mine.)

This may have just been a typo, and may not influence your reconstruction efforts very much, but the fourth word in language L is [ˈtrõ]. Looking at the rest of the modern/attested languages in your table, I think everything else is correct.

User avatar
Ser
sinic
sinic
Posts: 244
Joined: 30 Jun 2012 06:13
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ser »

sangi39 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 21:59
I don't think I'll be able to work on this now until the 11th of April. With everything going on with COVID-19, we've become a lot busier at work than everyone had originally expected so we're having to put in extra shifts to keep up with the work load (when doing my homeworking shifts, I could easily cram that into an hour and be comfortably done, now it's creeping up to three hours while having to intentionally leave stuff for when I'm at the office in the morning).
May I ask what kind of commonly-used service do you work at that you have to work more during the crisis? My father is in the same situation as you, as he works for the liquor distribution services here (which the provincial government has a monopoly on), and since the government and the people consider it essential, they've been regularly asking him if he can work more...
hīc sunt linguificēs. hēr bēoþ tungemakeras.

Post Reply