Quick Diachronics Challenge

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7465
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

In response to ɶʙ ɞʛ:
Spoiler:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote:
26 Apr 2020 01:13
Proto-4 isn't *kluon, is it?
[cross] Two segments are correct.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote:
26 Apr 2020 01:13
For KL, a chain shift happens in the form of *kl > *kr > *kj if this is the case, with later *kr becoming *tr, metathesizing to *rt in K (or maybe this is more of that Armenian shift *dw > rk, but with two coronals, going *tr > *t: > *ht > *rt as in Nivkh?) while simplifying to just *t or *r elsewhere.
[cross] None of these sound changes took place. Creative thinking, though!

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I don't think I'll be able to get much close than this, and I'm due to go back into the office tomorrow, so I might have to make this my last guess:
Spoiler:
A [ˈfutʃʏti] - [ˈʒetʃu] - [pəˈvapan] - [xʏˈven]
B [ˈɸɔxxuteː] - [ˈjaxxoː] - [pawˈwaɸɸa] - [ʃuwˈwaː]

AB [ˈɸɔ:ʃʃute:] - [ˈja:ʃʃo:] - [pəwˈwappan] - [ɧu'wa:n]

---

C [ɸɔːʃuˈdeɪ] - [ɲaːˈʃoʊ] - [ˈɸæːwaːβaː] - [ˈɸaː]
D [ɔʃˈteː] - [ɲaˈʃoː] - [ˈaːsaŋ] - [ˈaŋ]

CD [ɸɔʃʃuˈteː] - [ɲaʃˈʃoː] - [ˈɸa:wasɸaŋ] - [ˈɸan]

---

E [ˈføːʰti] - [ˈnyːʃø] - [ˈfoːwaŋ] - [ˈkʰuːŋ]
F [ˈpyːdʒiː] - [ˈnyːʒyː] - [puːˈwuːbm̩] - [ˈtʃyːm]

EF [ˈpøːhti] - [ˈnyːʃøː] - [puˈwupan] - [ˈkruːn]

---

G [ˈpoːɪði] - [ˈniːjø] - [ˈpwopan] - [ˈtʃuːn]
H [ˈpoːʃt] - [ˈniːʃ] - [ˈpʰoppã] - [ˈksũː]

GH [ˈpoːʒodi] - [ˈniːʒø] - [ˈpɰoppan] - [ˈkruːn]

---


I [ˈkoloɪt] - [ˈdʒeɪl] - [ˈgʱom] - [ˈʃõ]
J [ˈkoʎ̝ɟe] - [ˈdʒeʎʎo] - [kæˈŋoːβe] - [ˈʃuː]


IJ [ˈkoɮodje] - [ˈdʒeʎ̥jo] - [kaˈɣoβan] - [ˈʃõ:]

---

K [ˈkaʊʃʃutsi] - [ˈɖeʃʃu] - [ˈcʰoɸɸõ] - [ˈʂʈũ]
L [ˈkeʊɬɬti] - [ˈdriɬɬu] - [ˈθuɸɸa] - [ˈtrõ]

KL [ˈkaʊɬɬuti] - [ˈdreɬɬu] - [ˈkʰjoɸɸã] - [ˈtʃrõ]

---

M [ˈkoʊɬɬuʔ] - [ˈniɬɬe] - [ˈkuːfaŋ] - [ˈnuŋ]
N [ˈʔaʊɬuk] - [ˈgeɬe] - [ˈʔaːʰpã] - [ˈrõ]

MN [ˈkaʊɬɬut] - [ˈneɬɬe] - [ˈkoːʰpan] - [ˈron]

---

O [ˈkaːtɬ] - [ˈdeɬeː] - [ˈskopãː] - [ˈɬõː]
P [ˈkoxtse] - [ˈdzeʝø] - [ˈkromb] - [ˈhon]

OP [ˈkɑɬte] - [ˈdeɬeʊ] - [ˈkospan] - [ˈxlon]


------


AB [ˈɸɔ:ʃʃute:] - [ˈja:ʃʃo:] - [pəwˈwappan] - [ɧu'wa:n]
CD [ɸɔʃʃuˈteː] - [ɲaʃˈʃoː] - [ˈɸa:wasɸaŋ] - [ˈɸan]

OW [ˈɸɔ:ʃʃuteː] - [ˈnja:ʃʃoː] - [pəˈwaspan] - [xwa:n]

---

EF [ˈpøːhti] - [ˈnyːʃøː] - [puˈwupan] - [ˈkruːn]
GH [ˈpoːʒodi] - [ˈniːʒø] - [ˈpɰoppan] - [ˈkruːn]

IW [ˈpoːʃotiː] - [ˈniːʃøː] - [ˈpəɰoppan] - [ˈkruːn]

---

IJ [ˈkoɮodje] - [ˈdʒeʎ̥jo] - [kaˈɣoβan] - [ˈʃõ:]
KL [ˈkaʊɬɬuti] - [ˈdreɬɬu] - [ˈkʰjoɸɸã] - [ˈtʃrõ]

IE [ˈkɔːɬɬoti] - [ˈdreɬɬeʊ] - [kəˈɣoɸɸã] - [ˈtʃrõ]

---

MN [ˈkaʊɬɬut] - [ˈneɬɬe] - [ˈkoːʰpan] - [ˈron]
OP [ˈkɑɬte] - [ˈdeɬeʊ] - [ˈkospan] - [ˈxlon]

OE [ˈkauɬɬute] - [ˈndeɬɬeʊ] - [koˈɦospan] - [ˈxron]



---------



OW [ˈɸɔ:ʃʃuteː] - [ˈnja:ʃʃoː] - [pəˈwaspan] - [xwa:n]
IW [ˈpoːʃotiː] - [ˈniːʃøː] - [ˈpəɰoppan] - [ˈkruːn]

PW [ˈpo:ʃʃuteː] - [ˈneːʃʃoʊ] - [pəˈɰospan] - [ˈkroːn]

---

IE [ˈkɔːɬɬoti] - [ˈdreɬɬeʊ] - [kəˈɣoɸɸã] - [ˈtʃrõ]
OE [ˈkauɬɬute] - [ˈneɬɬeʊ] - [koˈɦospan] - [ˈxron]

PE [ˈkɔːɬɬoti] - [ˈndreɬɬoʊ] - [kəˈɣospan] - [ˈtʃro:n]



------------



PW [ˈpo:ʃʃuteː] - [ˈneːʃʃoʊ] - [pəˈɰospan] - [ˈkroːn]
PE [ˈkɔːɬɬoti] - [ˈndreɬɬoʊ] - [kəˈɣospan] - [ˈtʃro:n]

PR [ˈkʷɔːɬɬote] - [ˈnde:ɬɬoʊ] - [kʷəˈɣospan] - [ˈkro:n]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7465
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Well, this has been going on for a few rounds now, since the beginning of March, and it would be ridiculous for me to drag things out until someone reconstructed everything perfectly. I'd like to announce the results today.

Even so, I'm going to take the time to respond to sangi39's latest post in the way I've responded in previous rounds. While I'm working on that, if anyone else would like to jump in and give this one final go, let me know.

User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3775
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 »

Quick gander, and some guesses based on what I see

'kʷu:kluti-'ndeklu -kʷʰe'wupan - kʲʰu'twan
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7465
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

In response to qwed117's post:
Spoiler:
qwed117 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 20:26
'kʷu:kluti-'ndeklu -kʷʰe'wupan - kʲʰu'twan
Thank you for participating!

In terms of segments:

Word 1 - 3 correct
Word 2 - 2 correct
Word 3 - 3 correct
Word 4 - 1 correct

For word 1, [-k-] is incorrect, as are all of the syllable nuclei. However, [-u-] in the second syllable is only off in terms of length.

For word 2, [-d-] and [-k-] are incorrect, as is the final vowel. The first vowel is only off in terms of length.

For word 3, only [-pan] is correct, but the initial consonant is only off in terms of aspiration.

For word 4, only [-n] is correct, but the initial consonant would be as well if it weren't aspirated and palatalized. Although actually, I think I would count [kʲ] as correct. Anyway, you've also overestimated the number of syllables.

In response to sangi39's latest post:
Spoiler:
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
A [ˈfutʃʏti] - [ˈʒetʃu] - [pəˈvapan] - [xʏˈven]
B [ˈɸɔxxuteː] - [ˈjaxxoː] - [pawˈwaɸɸa] - [ʃuwˈwaː]

AB [ˈɸɔ:ʃʃute:] - [ˈja:ʃʃo:] - [pəwˈwappan] - [ɧu'wa:n]
Word 1 - Spot-on!
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - You were closer last time with the quality of the first vowel and the [w] not being geminate. [-pp-] is also off.
Word 4 - The only thing that's off is [ɧ-].
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
C [ɸɔːʃuˈdeɪ] - [ɲaːˈʃoʊ] - [ˈɸæːwaːβaː] - [ˈɸaː]
D [ɔʃˈteː] - [ɲaˈʃoː] - [ˈaːsaŋ] - [ˈaŋ]

CD [ɸɔʃʃuˈteː] - [ɲaʃˈʃoː] - [ˈɸa:wasɸaŋ] - [ˈɸan]
Word 1 - Spot-on!
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - Very close! [-w-] and [-ŋ] are technically off, but they're probably close enough.
Word 4 - Spot-on!
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
E [ˈføːʰti] - [ˈnyːʃø] - [ˈfoːwaŋ] - [ˈkʰuːŋ]
F [ˈpyːdʒiː] - [ˈnyːʒyː] - [puːˈwuːbm̩] - [ˈtʃyːm]

EF [ˈpøːhti] - [ˈnyːʃøː] - [puˈwupan] - [ˈkruːn]
Word 1 - You were correct about the final vowel being long in your previous reconstructions. [-h-] is not correct.
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - You're getting closer! The placement of stress is correct, as is [p-…-pan].
Word 4 - Spot-on!
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
G [ˈpoːɪði] - [ˈniːjø] - [ˈpwopan] - [ˈtʃuːn]
H [ˈpoːʃt] - [ˈniːʃ] - [ˈpʰoppã] - [ˈksũː]

GH [ˈpoːʒodi] - [ˈniːʒø] - [ˈpɰoppan] - [ˈkruːn]
Word 1 - Very close! Only the medial [-o-] is off, but it's probably close enough.
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - [p-…-oppan] is correct, and the stressed vowel is [-o-]. You're missing a syllable, however.
Word 4 - Spot-on!
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
I [ˈkoloɪt] - [ˈdʒeɪl] - [ˈgʱom] - [ˈʃõ]
J [ˈkoʎ̝ɟe] - [ˈdʒeʎʎo] - [kæˈŋoːβe] - [ˈʃuː]


IJ [ˈkoɮodje] - [ˈdʒeʎ̥jo] - [kaˈɣoβan] - [ˈʃõ:]
Word 1 - Spot-on!
Word 2 - Very close! In my notes, I have [-ɮj-] instead of [-ʎ̥j-].
Word 3 - Close! The quality of the first vowel is off, and the consonant in the onset of the stressed syllable was not [-ɣ-]. Additionally, you were correct before about the word ending in a nasalized vowel instead of [-Vn], but the quality of the vowel here is correct.
Word 4 - I'm sorry, I made a mistake. You were spot-on last time with [ˈʃõ]!
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
K [ˈkaʊʃʃutsi] - [ˈɖeʃʃu] - [ˈcʰoɸɸõ] - [ˈʂʈũ]
L [ˈkeʊɬɬti] - [ˈdriɬɬu] - [ˈθuɸɸa] - [ˈtrõ]

KL [ˈkaʊɬɬuti] - [ˈdreɬɬu] - [ˈkʰjoɸɸã] - [ˈtʃrõ]
Word 1 - Spot-on!
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - Spot-on!
Word 4 - I'd say your previous reconstruction was closer.
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
M [ˈkoʊɬɬuʔ] - [ˈniɬɬe] - [ˈkuːfaŋ] - [ˈnuŋ]
N [ˈʔaʊɬuk] - [ˈgeɬe] - [ˈʔaːʰpã] - [ˈrõ]

MN [ˈkaʊɬɬut] - [ˈneɬɬe] - [ˈkoːʰpan] - [ˈron]
Word 1 - Spot-on!
Word 2 - There's still one segment you're missing.
Word 3 - Spot-on!
Word 4 - Spot on!
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
O [ˈkaːtɬ] - [ˈdeɬeː] - [ˈskopãː] - [ˈɬõː]
P [ˈkoxtse] - [ˈdzeʝø] - [ˈkromb] - [ˈhon]

OP [ˈkɑɬte] - [ˈdeɬeʊ] - [ˈkospan] - [ˈxlon]
Word 1 - The nucleus of the stressed syllable is off.
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - [k-…-opan] is correct, as is [o] being the stressed vowel. You're also correct about the presence of [-s-]. The number of syllables, however, is off.
Word 4 - [xl-] is off, but understandable.
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
AB [ˈɸɔ:ʃʃute:] - [ˈja:ʃʃo:] - [pəwˈwappan] - [ɧu'wa:n]
CD [ɸɔʃʃuˈteː] - [ɲaʃˈʃoː] - [ˈɸa:wasɸaŋ] - [ˈɸan]

OW [ˈɸɔ:ʃʃuteː] - [ˈnja:ʃʃoː] - [pəˈwaspan] - [xwa:n]
Proto-OW:
Word 1 - Spot on!
Word 2 - Spot on!
Word 3 - Very close! [p-…-waspan] is correct. As I mentioned in previous comments, the vowel in the initial syllable was [-aː-]. There is one additional segment that's missing.
Word 4 - Very close! There is still one segment missing, however.
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
EF [ˈpøːhti] - [ˈnyːʃøː] - [puˈwupan] - [ˈkruːn]
GH [ˈpoːʒodi] - [ˈniːʒø] - [ˈpɰoppan] - [ˈkruːn]

IW [ˈpoːʃotiː] - [ˈniːʃøː] - [ˈpəɰoppan] - [ˈkruːn]
Proto-IW:
Word 1 - Very close! The only thing that's off is the medial [-o-], but it's probably close enough.
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - [p-…-pan] is correct, as is [-o-]. However, the remaining segments are off, as is the placement of stress.
Word 4 - Spot on!
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
IJ [ˈkoɮodje] - [ˈdʒeʎ̥jo] - [kaˈɣoβan] - [ˈʃõ:]
KL [ˈkaʊɬɬuti] - [ˈdreɬɬu] - [ˈkʰjoɸɸã] - [ˈtʃrõ]

IE [ˈkɔːɬɬoti] - [ˈdreɬɬeʊ] - [kəˈɣoɸɸã] - [ˈtʃrõ]
Proto-IE (not that one):
Word 1 - None of the syllable nuclei are entirely correct, but all of the consonants are.
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - Very close! [k-…-oɸɸã] is correct, [-o-] is the stressed vowel, and the placement of stress is also correct. [-əɣ-] are off, however.
Word 4 - Closer!
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
MN [ˈkaʊɬɬut] - [ˈneɬɬe] - [ˈkoːʰpan] - [ˈron]
OP [ˈkɑɬte] - [ˈdeɬeʊ] - [ˈkospan] - [ˈxlon]

OE [ˈkauɬɬute] - [ˈndeɬɬeʊ] - [koˈɦospan] - [ˈxron]
Proto-OE:
Word 1 - Spot-on!
Word 2 - Spot-on!
Word 3 - Very close! The quality of the first vowel is off, however, and [ɦ] in your reconstruction corresponds to Ø in my notes, but that probably doesn't matter.
Word 4 - All correct except for [x-].
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
OW [ˈɸɔ:ʃʃuteː] - [ˈnja:ʃʃoː] - [pəˈwaspan] - [xwa:n]
IW [ˈpoːʃotiː] - [ˈniːʃøː] - [ˈpəɰoppan] - [ˈkruːn]

PW [ˈpo:ʃʃuteː] - [ˈneːʃʃoʊ] - [pəˈɰospan] - [ˈkroːn]
Proto-Western:
Word 1 - Very close! The nucleus of the initial syllable is still off, however.
Word 2 - Very close! The final diphthong that I had in mind was [-eʊ̯].
Word 3 - [p-…-ospan] is correct, as is the placement of stress.
Word 4 - Spot on!
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
IE [ˈkɔːɬɬoti] - [ˈdreɬɬeʊ] - [kəˈɣoɸɸã] - [ˈtʃrõ]
OE [ˈkauɬɬute] - [ˈneɬɬeʊ] - [koˈɦospan] - [ˈxron]

PE [ˈkɔːɬɬoti] - [ˈndreɬɬoʊ] - [kəˈɣospan] - [ˈtʃro:n]
Proto-Eastern:
Word 1 - None of the syllable nuclei are correct, but all of the consonants are. The quality, but not length, of the final vowel in your first reconstruction was correct.
Word 2 - Very close! The final diphthong that I had in mind was [-eʊ̯].
Word 3 - [k-…-ospan] is correct, as is the placement of stress.
Word 4 - [tʃ-] and the length of the vowel are off. It appears that I might not have mentioned the vowel length issue before, so I apologize for that as well.
sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 18:42
PW [ˈpo:ʃʃuteː] - [ˈneːʃʃoʊ] - [pəˈɰospan] - [ˈkroːn]
PE [ˈkɔːɬɬoti] - [ˈndreɬɬoʊ] - [kəˈɣospan] - [ˈtʃro:n]

PR [ˈkʷɔːɬɬote] - [ˈnde:ɬɬoʊ] - [kʷəˈɣospan] - [ˈkro:n]
In terms of segments:

Word 1 - 2 correct
Word 2 - 2 correct
Word 3 - 6 correct
Word 4 - 4 correct!

Your previous reconstruction was correct regarding the onset of the first syllable in word 2.

Thank you for all the effort you've put into this, despite your circumstances, over the past two months!

I would like to thank everyone who participated for taking the time to do so! I hope this was enjoyable for all of you. I certainly enjoyed seeing your reconstruction attempts.

The four words in the protolanguage were:

[ˈkʷaʊ̯ʃluːteː] - [ˈnreːʃleʊ̯] - [kʷaːˈhospan] - [ˈkroːn]

In terms of segments:

Word 1 - ɶʙ ɞʛ and qwed117 came the closest, both reconstructing 3 out of 7 correctly.
Word 2 - ɶʙ ɞʛ came the closest, reconstructing 3 out of 6 correctly.
Word 3 - sangi39 came the closest, reconstructing 6 out of 8 correctly.
Word 4 - sangi39's guess was spot-on, reconstructing all 4 segments correctly.

I'm giving this round to sangi39, not only for correctly reconstructing word 4 and coming very close on word 3, but also for working out all of the subgroupings correctly, paying attention to stress, and for being spot-on with 26 of his 56 lower-level reconstructions (if I've counted correctly).

For anyone who's curious, I can post an outline of the sound changes I used to derive all the "modern" forms of the words.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

HA! I'll tell you what threw me off with the revealed original forms: That it was *ʃl and not *ɬɬ. Lateral fricatives corresponding to post-alveolar fricatives is attested in the Semitic languages (with a hypothetical origin in *ɬ), and there's a similar correspondence in some dialects of Welsh (I think there it's [ɬ]~[ç]), so I just assumed that a single consonant would have been the original form (albeit geminate here), rather than a cluster [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7465
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 23:17
HA! I'll tell you what threw me off with the revealed original forms: That it was *ʃl and not *ɬɬ. Lateral fricatives corresponding to post-alveolar fricatives is attested in the Semitic languages (with a hypothetical origin in *ɬ), and there's a similar correspondence in some dialects of Welsh (I think there it's [ɬ]~[ç]), so I just assumed that a single consonant would have been the original form (albeit geminate here), rather than a cluster [:P]
Haha, I don't blame you! I definitely had this change in mind myself, since although Proto-Western resolves *ʃl as [ʃʃ] and Proto-Eastern resolves it as [ɬɬ], language K later merges [ɬ] with [ʃ].

Before I saw your post earlier today, I was thinking about giving a few hints, one of which was that none of the words contained any geminate consonants.

In any case, please don't feel rushed to come up with anything soon. Especially given everything that's going on in the world, I have no problem waiting!

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7465
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Sound changes:
Spoiler:
Proto-World: [ˈkʷaʊ̯ʃluːteː] - [ˈnreːʃleʊ̯] - [kʷaːˈhospan] - [ˈkroːn]


Proto-Western: [ˈpaʊ̯ʃʃuteː] - [ˈneːʃʃeʊ̯] - [paːˈhospan] - [ˈkroːn]
-Liquids fully assimilate to preceding nasals and fricatives. This results in geminates intervocalically, but not initially. ([ˈkʷaʊ̯ʃluːteː] > *[ˈkʷaʊ̯ʃʃuːteː], [ˈnreːʃleʊ̯] > [ˈneːʃʃeʊ̯])
-When two adjacent syllables contain long vowels, the first is shortened. (*[ˈkʷaʊ̯ʃʃuːteː] > *[ˈkʷaʊ̯ʃʃuteː])
-[kʷ] merges with [p]. (*[ˈkʷaʊ̯ʃʃuteː] > [ˈpaʊ̯ʃʃuteː], [paːˈhospan])

Proto-Outer Western: [ˈpʰɔːʃʃuteː] - [ˈnjaːʃʃoː] - [paːˈhwaspan] - [ˈkʰrwaːn]
-Stressed mid vowels [e(ː) o(ː)] undergo breaking, becoming [ja(ː) wa(ː)]. ([ˈneːʃʃeʊ̯] > *[ˈnjaːʃʃeʊ̯], [paːˈhospan] > [paːˈhwaspan], [ˈkroːn] > *[ˈkrwaːn])
-[eʊ̯ oɪ̯ aɪ̯ aʊ̯] are monophthongized to [oː eː ɛː ɔː]. ([ˈpaʊ̯ʃʃuteː] > *[ˈpɔːʃʃuteː], *[ˈnjaːʃʃeʊ̯] > [ˈnjaːʃʃoː])
-Stops become aspirated in the onsets of stressed syllables. (*[ˈpɔːʃʃuteː] > [ˈpʰɔːʃʃuteː], *[ˈkrwaːn] > [ˈkʰrwaːn])

Proto-AB: [ˈɸɔːʃʃuteː] - [ˈjaːʃʃoː] - [paːˈwaspan] - [xruˈwaːn]
-Following two or more consonants, [i] and [u] are inserted before [j] and [w], respectively. ([ˈkʰrwaːn] > *[kʰruˈwaːn])
-Sonorants and [h] are lost before [j w]. ([ˈnjaːʃʃoː] > [ˈjaːʃʃoː], [paːˈhwaspan] > [paːˈwaspan])
-Aspirated stops lenite, becoming fricatives. ([ˈpʰɔːʃʃuteː] > [ˈɸɔːʃʃuteː], *[kʰruˈwaːn] > [xruˈwaːn])

A: [ˈfut͡ʃʏti] - [ˈʒet͡ʃu] - [pəˈvapan] - [xʏˈven]
-Geminate fricatives become affricates. ([ˈɸɔːʃʃuteː] > *[ˈɸɔːt͡ʃuteː], [ˈjaːʃʃoː] > *[ˈjaːt͡ʃoː])
-[eː oː ɛː ɔː aː] are raised and shortened to [i u i u e]. (*[ˈɸɔːt͡ʃuteː] > *[ˈɸut͡ʃuti], *[ˈjaːt͡ʃoː] > *[ˈjet͡ʃu], [paːˈwaspan] > *[peˈwaspan], [xruˈwaːn] > *[xruˈwen])
-Liquids are lost after other consonants, and fricatives are lost preconsonantally. (*[peˈwaspan] > *[peˈwapan], *[xruˈwen] > *[xuˈwen])
-[j w] become [ʒ v], and [ɸ] becomes [f]. (*[ˈɸut͡ʃuti] > *[ˈfut͡ʃuti], *[ˈjet͡ʃu] > [ˈʒet͡ʃu], *[peˈwapan] > *[peˈvapan], *[xuˈwen] > *[xuˈven])
-Pretonic and intertonic [i u e o a] become [ɪ ʏ ə ə ə]. (*[ˈfut͡ʃuti] > [ˈfut͡ʃʏti], *[peˈvapan] > [pəˈvapan], *[xuˈven] > [xʏˈven])

B: [ˈɸɔxxuteː] - [ˈjaxxoː] - [pawˈwaɸɸa] - [ʃuwˈwaː]
-[ʃ] merges with [x]. ([ˈɸɔːʃʃuteː] > *[ˈɸɔːxxuteː], [ˈjaːʃʃoː] > *[ˈjaːxxoː])
-Clusters of fricatives and stops become geminate non-sibilant fricatives intervocalically. ([paːˈwaspan] > *[paːˈwaɸɸan])
-Clusters of fricatives and [r] become [ʃ]. ([xruˈwaːn] > *[ʃuˈwaːn])
-Coda nasals are lost. (*[paːˈwaɸɸan] > *[paːˈwaɸɸa], *[ʃuˈwaːn] > *[ʃuˈwaː])
-Long vowels are shortened in closed and pretonic syllables. (*[ˈɸɔːxxuteː] > [ˈɸɔxxuteː], *[ˈjaːxxoː] > [ˈjaxxoː], *[paːˈwaɸɸa] > *[paˈwaɸɸa])
-Approximants in the onsets of stressed syllables are geminated intervocalically. (*[paˈwaɸɸa] > [pawˈwaɸɸa], *[ʃuˈwaː] > [ʃuwˈwaː])


Proto-CD: [ɸɔʃʃuˈteː] - [ɲaʃˈʃoː] - [ˈɸaːʍasɸan] - [ˈɸan]
-Liquids are lost between consonants. ([ˈkʰrwaːn] > *[ˈkʰwaːn])
-[hw] becomes [ʍ]. ([paːˈhwaspan] > *[paːˈʍaspan])
-Consonants followed by [j] and [w] become palatals and labials, respectively. ([ˈnjaːʃʃoː] > *[ˈɲaːʃʃoː], *[ˈkʰwaːn] > *[ˈpʰaːn])
-Long vowels are shortened in closed syllables. ([ˈpʰɔːʃʃuteː] > *[ˈpʰɔʃʃuteː], *[ˈɲaːʃʃoː] > *[ˈɲaʃʃoː], *[ˈpʰaːn] > *[ˈpʰan])
-Stress shifts to the leftmost long vowel in a word. (*[ˈpʰɔʃʃuteː] > *[pʰɔʃʃuˈteː], *[ˈɲaʃʃoː] > [ɲaʃˈʃoː], *[paːˈʍaspan] > *[ˈpaːʍaspan])
-[p pʰ] merge as [ɸ]. (*[pʰɔʃʃuˈteː] > [ɸɔʃʃuˈteː], *[ˈpaːʍaspan] > [ˈɸaːʍasɸan], *[ˈpʰan] > [ˈɸan])

C: [ɸɔːʃuˈdeɪ̯] - [ɲaːˈʃoʊ̯] - [ˈɸæːwaːβaː] - [ˈɸaː]
-[eː oː aː] become [eɪ̯ oʊ̯ æː]. ([ɸɔʃʃuˈteː] > *[ɸɔʃʃuˈteɪ̯], [ɲaʃˈʃoː] > *[ɲaʃˈʃoʊ̯], [ˈɸaːʍasɸan] > *[ˈɸæːʍasɸan])
-Coda consonants are lost, resulting in the compensatory lengthening of preceding vowels. (*[ɸɔʃʃuˈteɪ̯] > *[ɸɔːʃuˈteɪ̯], *[ɲaʃˈʃoʊ̯] > [ɲaːˈʃoʊ̯], *[ˈɸæːʍasɸan] > *[ˈɸæːʍaːɸaː], [ˈɸan] > [ˈɸaː])
-Voiceless non-sibilant consonants are voiced intervocalically. (*[ɸɔːʃuˈteɪ̯] > [ɸɔːʃuˈdeɪ̯], *[ˈɸæːʍaːɸaː] > [ˈɸæːwaːβaː])

D: [ɔʃˈteː] - [ɲaˈʃoː] - [ˈaːsaŋ] - [ˈaŋ]
-Non-sibilant fricatives fully assimilate to adjacent sibilant fricatives. ([ˈɸaːʍasɸan] > *[ˈɸaːʍassan])
-[ʍ] merges with [ɸ]. (*[ˈɸaːʍassan] > *[ˈɸaːɸassan])
-Coda nasals merge as [ŋ]. (*[ˈɸaːɸassan] > *[ˈɸaːɸassaŋ], [ˈɸan] > *[ˈɸaŋ])
-[ɸ] is lost unconditionally. ([ɸɔʃʃuˈteː] > *[ɔʃʃuˈteː], *[ˈɸaːɸassaŋ] > *[ˈaːassaŋ], *[ˈɸaŋ] > [ˈaŋ])
-Degemination takes place. (*[ɔʃʃuˈteː] > *[ɔʃuˈteː], [ɲaʃˈʃoː] > [ɲaˈʃoː], *[ˈaːassaŋ] > *[ˈaːasaŋ])
-Intertonic vowels are lost. (*[ɔʃuˈteː] > [ɔʃˈteː], *[ˈaːasaŋ] > [ˈaːsaŋ])



Proto-Inner Western: [ˈpoːʃutiː] - [ˈniːʃøː] - [poːˈhospan] - [ˈkruːn] 
-Degemination takes place. ([ˈpaʊ̯ʃʃuteː] > *[ˈpaʊ̯ʃuteː], [ˈneːʃʃeʊ̯] > *[ˈneːʃeʊ̯])
-[uː eː oː aː] shift to [yː iː uː oː]. (*[ˈpaʊ̯ʃuteː] > *[ˈpaʊ̯ʃutiː], *[ˈneːʃeʊ̯] > *[ˈniːʃeʊ̯], [paːˈhospan] > [poːˈhospan], [ˈkroːn] > [ˈkruːn])
-[eʊ̯ oɪ̯ aɪ̯ aʊ̯] are monophthongized to [øː øː eː oː]. (*[ˈpaʊ̯ʃutiː] > [ˈpoːʃutiː], *[ˈniːʃeʊ̯] > [ˈniːʃøː])

Proto-EF: [ˈpøːʃtiː] - [ˈnyːʃøː] - [poːˈhoːpan] - [ˈkruːn]
-Coda fricatives are lost, resulting in the compensatory lengthening of a preceding vowel. ([poːˈhospan] > [poːˈhoːpan])
-Intertonic short monophthongs are deleted. ([ˈpoːʃutiː] > *[ˈpoːʃtiː])
-[u(ː) o(ː)] become [y(ː) ø(ː)] when [i(ː)] or a front rounded vowel occurs in the following syllable. (*[ˈpoːʃtiː] > [ˈpøːʃtiː])
-[i(ː) e(ː)] become [y(ː) ø(ː)] when a front rounded vowel occurs in the following syllable. ([ˈniːʃøː] > [ˈnyːʃøː])

E: [ˈføːʰti] - [ˈnyːʃø] - [ˈfoːwaŋ] - [ˈkʰuːŋ]
-Long vowels are shortened in unstressed syllables. ([ˈpøːʃtiː] > *[ˈpøːʃti], [ˈnyːʃøː] > [ˈnyːʃø], [poːˈhoːpan] > *[poˈhoːpan])
-[h] is deleted intervocalically. (*[poˈhoːpan] > *[poˈoːpan])
-Short vowels are lost when adjacent to long vowels. (*[poˈoːpan] > *[ˈpoːpan])
-Coda nasals merge as [ŋ]. (*[ˈpoːpan] > *[ˈpoːpaŋ], [ˈkruːn] > *[ˈkruːŋ])
-Intervocalic clusters of fricatives and stops become preaspirated stops. (*[ˈpøːʃti] > *[ˈpøːʰti])
-Liquids are devoiced following voiceless stops, eventually resulting in these clusters becoming aspirated stops. (*[ˈkruːŋ] > *[ˈkr̥uːŋ] > [ˈkʰuːŋ])
-[p] lenites to [f] initially and [w] intervocalically. (*[ˈpøːʰti] > [ˈføːʰti], *[ˈpoːpaŋ] > [ˈfoːwaŋ])

F: [ˈpyːd͡ʒiː] - [ˈnyːʒyː] - [puːˈwuːbm̩] - [ˈt͡ʃyːm]
-Clusters of stops followed by [r] become [t͡ʃ]. ([ˈkruːn] > *[ˈt͡ʃuːn])
-Homorganic clusters of fricatives followed by stops undergo metathesis, becoming affricates. ([ˈpøːʃtiː] > *[ˈpøːt͡ʃiː])
-Unstressed short vowels followed by coda nasals become syllabic nasals. ([poːˈhoːpan] > *[poːˈhoːpn̩])
-Syllabic nasals assimilate in POA to adjacent consonants. (*[poːˈhoːpn̩] > *[poːˈhoːpm̩])
-[h] becomes [w] between rounded vowels. (*[poːˈhoːpm̩] > *[poːˈwoːpm̩])
-Following rounded vowels, coda nasals merge as [m]. (*[ˈt͡ʃuːn] > *[ˈt͡ʃuːm])
-Voiceless obstruents become voiced intervocalically. (*[ˈpøːt͡ʃiː] > *[ˈpøːd͡ʒiː], [ˈnyːʃøː] > *[ˈnyːʒøː], *[poːˈwoːpm̩] > *[poːˈwoːbm̩])
-[u(ː) ø(ː) o(ː)] become [y(ː) y(ː) u(ː)]. ( *[ˈpøːd͡ʒiː] >  [ˈpyːd͡ʒiː], *[ˈnyːʒøː] > [ˈnyːʒyː], *[poːˈwoːbm̩] > [puːˈwuːbm̩], *[ˈt͡ʃuːm] > [ˈt͡ʃyːm])


Proto-GH: [ˈpoːʒudi] - [ˈniːʒø] - [poˈɦoppan] - [ˈkruːn]
-Coda fricatives are lost, resulting in the compensatory lengthening of a following consonant. ([poːˈhospan] > *[poːˈhoppan])
-Voiceless obstruents are voiced intervocalically. ([ˈpoːʃutiː] > *[ˈpoːʒudiː], [ˈniːʃøː] > *[ˈniːʒøː], *[poːˈhoppan] > *[poːˈɦoppan])
-Long vowels are shortened in unstressed syllables. (*[ˈpoːʒudiː] > [ˈpoːʒudi], *[ˈniːʒøː] > [ˈniːʒø], *[poːˈɦoppan] > [poˈɦoppan])

G: [ˈpoːɪ̯ði] - [ˈniːjø] - [ˈpwopan] - [ˈt͡ʃuːn]
-Clusters of stops followed by [r] become [t͡ʃ]. ([ˈkruːn] > [ˈt͡ʃuːn])
-[ɦ] is lost intervocalically. ([poˈɦoppan] > *[poˈoppan])
-Intervocalically, fricatives become approximants and stops become fricatives. ([ˈpoːʒudi] > *[ˈpoːjuði], [ˈniːʒø] > [ˈniːjø])
-Degemination takes place. (*[poˈoppan] > *[poˈopan])
-Before stressed vowels, back rounded vowels become [w]. (*[poˈopan] > [ˈpwopan])
-Intertonic short vowels are lost. (*[ˈpoːjuði] > *[ˈpoːjði])
-Monophthongs followed by coda [j w] become diphthongs. (*[ˈpoːjði] > [ˈpoːɪ̯ði])

H: [ˈpoːʃt] - [ˈniːʃ] - [ˈpʰoppã] - [ˈksũː]
-Coda nasals are lost, leaving behind nasalization on preceding vowels. ([poˈɦoppan] > *[poˈɦoppã], [ˈkruːn] > *[ˈkrũː])
-Short oral vowels are lost in pretonic and intertonic syllables. ([ˈpoːʒudi] > *[ˈpoːʒdi], *[poˈɦoppã] > *[ˈpɦoppã])
-Clusters of stops followed by glottal fricatives become aspirates. (*[ˈpɦoppã] > [ˈpʰoppã])
-Short oral vowels are lost word-finally. (*[ˈpoːʒdi] > *[ˈpoːʒd], [ˈniːʒø] > *[ˈniːʒ])
-Obstruents are devoiced word-finally. (*[ˈpoːʒd] > [ˈpoːʃt], *[ˈniːʒ] > [ˈniːʃ])
-Following voiceless stops, [r] is devoiced, eventually becoming [s]. (*[ˈkrũː] > *[ˈkr̥ũː] > *[ˈksũː])




Proto-Eastern: [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬuːteː] - [ˈndreɬɬeʊ̯] - [kaːˈhospan] - [ˈsron]
-In clusters of nasals followed by liquids, voiced stops homorganic with the nasals are inserted. ([ˈnreːʃleʊ̯] > *[ˈndreːʃleʊ̯])
-Clusters of fricatives and [l] become [ɬɬ] intervocalically and [ɬ] elsewhere. ([ˈkʷaʊ̯ʃluːteː] > *[ˈkʷaʊ̯ɬɬuːteː], *[ˈndreːʃleʊ̯] > *[ˈndreːɬɬeʊ̯])
-Long vowels are shortened in closed syllables. (*[ˈndreːɬɬeʊ̯] > [ˈndreɬɬeʊ̯], [ˈkroːn] > *[ˈkron])
-[k], perhaps more accurately [c~kʲ~k̟] at this point, merges with [s]. (*[ˈkron] > [ˈsron])
-[kʷ] becomes [k]. (*[ˈkʷaʊ̯ɬɬuːteː] > [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬuːteː], [kʷaːˈhospan] > [kaːˈhospan])

Proto-Inner Eastern: [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬaʊ̯teɪ̯] - [ˈdreɬɬeʊ̯] - [kæˈhoɸɸã] - [ˈsrõ]
-Coda nasals are lost, leaving behind nasalization on preceding vowels. ([kaːˈhospan] > *[kaːˈhospã], [ˈsron] > [ˈsrõ])
-Word-initially, nasals are lost before other consonants. ([ˈndreɬɬeʊ̯] > [ˈdreɬɬeʊ̯])
-[aː] is fronted and shortened to [æ], while [iː uː eː oː] diphthongize to [aɪ̯ aʊ̯ eɪ̯ oʊ̯]. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬuːteː] > [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬaʊ̯teɪ̯], *[kaːˈhospã] > *[kæˈhospã])
-Clusters of fricatives followed by stops become geminate non-sibilant fricatives. (*[kæˈhospã] > [kæˈhoɸɸã])

Proto-IJ: [ˈkoɮodje] - [ˈd͡ʒeɮjo] - [kæˈɦoβã] - [ˈʃõ]
-Degemination takes place. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬaʊ̯teɪ̯] > *[ˈkaʊ̯ɬaʊ̯teɪ̯], [ˈdreɬɬeʊ̯] > *[ˈdreɬeʊ̯], [kæˈhoɸɸã] > *[kæˈhoɸã])
-Voiceless obstruents are voiced intervocalically. (*[ˈkaʊ̯ɬaʊ̯teɪ̯] > *[ˈkaʊ̯ɮaʊ̯deɪ̯], *[ˈdreɬeʊ̯] > *[ˈdreɮeʊ̯], *[kæˈhoɸã] > [kæˈɦoβã])
-Clusters of fricatives and [r] become [ʃ]. ([ˈsrõ] > [ˈʃõ])
-Clusters of stops and [r] become [t͡ʃ] or [d͡ʒ], depending on the voicing of the stop. (*[ˈdreɮeʊ̯] > *[ˈd͡ʒeɮeʊ̯])
-[eɪ̯ eʊ̯ oɪ̯ oʊ̯ aɪ̯ aʊ̯] become [je jo we wo e o]. (*[ˈkaʊ̯ɮaʊ̯deɪ̯] > [ˈkoɮodje], *[ˈd͡ʒeɮeʊ̯] > [ˈd͡ʒeɮjo])

I: [ˈkoloɪ̯t] - [ˈd͡ʒeɪ̯l] - [ˈgʱom] - [ˈʃõ]
-Voiced obstruents become homorganic nasals before nasal vowels. ([kæˈɦoβã] > *[kæˈɦomã])
-Lateral fricatives become lateral approximants. ([ˈkoɮodje] > *[ˈkolodje], [ˈd͡ʒeɮjo] > *[ˈd͡ʒeljo])
-Clusters of consonants followed by approximants undergo metathesis. (*[ˈkolodje] > *[ˈkolojde], *[ˈd͡ʒeljo] > *[ˈd͡ʒejlo])
-Monophthongs followed by coda [j w] become diphthongs. (*[ˈkolojde] > *[ˈkoloɪ̯de], *[ˈd͡ʒejlo] > *[ˈd͡ʒeɪ̯lo])
-Pretonic and final unstressed short monophthongs are lost. (*[ˈkoloɪ̯de] > *[ˈkoloɪ̯d], *[ˈd͡ʒeɪ̯lo] > [ˈd͡ʒeɪ̯l], *[kæˈɦomã] > *[ˈkɦom])
-Clusters of stops followed by [ɦ] become breathy voiced. (*[ˈkɦom] > [ˈgʱom])
-Obstruents are devoiced word-finally. (*[ˈkoloɪ̯d] > [ˈkoloɪ̯t)

J: [ˈkoʎ̝ɟe] - [ˈd͡ʒeʎ̝ʎ̝o] - [kæˈŋoːβe] - [ˈʃuː]
-[ẽ õ ã] are raised and denasalized to [i u e]. ([kæˈɦoβã] > *[kæˈɦoβe], [ˈʃõ] > *[ˈʃu])
-Vowels are lost in intertonic syllables. ([ˈkoɮodje] > *[ˈkoɮdje])
-Clusters of coronal consonants followed by [j] become palatals, and are geminated intervocalically. (*[ˈkoɮdje] > [ˈkoʎ̝ɟe], [ˈd͡ʒeɮjo] > [ˈd͡ʒeʎ̝ʎ̝o])
-[ɦ] merges with [ŋ]. (*[kæˈɦoβe] > *[kæˈŋoβe])
-Stressed vowels are lengthened in open syllables. (*[kæˈŋoβe] > [kæˈŋoːβe], *[ˈʃu] > [ˈʃuː])


Proto-KL: [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬuti] - [ˈdreɬɬu] - [ˈcʰoɸɸã] - [ˈstrõ]
-[t] is inserted between [s] and a liquid. ([ˈsrõ] > [ˈstrõ])
-Pretonic front unrounded and back rounded vowels become [j] and [w], respectively. ([kæˈhoɸɸã] > *[ˈkjhoɸɸã])
-Clusters containing both a stop and [h] result in aspirated stops. (*[ˈkjhoɸɸã] > *[ˈkʰjoɸɸã])
-Unstressed [eɪ̯ eʊ̯ oɪ̯ oʊ̯ aɪ̯ aʊ̯] become [i u i u i u]. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬaʊ̯teɪ̯] > [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬuti], [ˈdreɬɬeʊ̯] > [ˈdreɬɬu])
-Clusters of velars followed by [j] become palatals. (*[ˈkʰjoɸɸã] > [ˈcʰoɸɸã])

K: [ˈkaʊ̯ʃʃut͡si] - [ˈɖeʃʃu] - [ˈcʰoɸɸõ] - [ˈʂʈũ]
-Clusters of coronal consonants followed by [r] become retroflex. ([ˈdreɬɬu] > *[ˈɖeɬɬu], [ˈstrõ] > *[ˈʂʈõ])
-[ẽ õ ã] become [jã õ ũ]. ([ˈcʰoɸɸã] > [ˈcʰoɸɸõ], *[ˈʂʈõ] > [ˈʂʈũ])
-[t d] become [t͡s d͡z] before [i]. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬuti] > *[ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬut͡si])
-[ɬ] merges with [ʃ]. (*[ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬut͡si] > [ˈkaʊ̯ʃʃut͡si], *[ˈɖeɬɬu] > [ˈɖeʃʃu])

L: [ˈkeʊ̯ɬɬti] - [ˈdriɬɬu] - [ˈθuɸɸa] - [ˈtrõ]
-In stressed syllables, [e o a(ɪ̯,ʊ̯)] are raised to [i u e(ɪ̯,ʊ̯)]. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬuti] > *[ˈkeʊ̯ɬɬuti], [ˈdreɬɬu] > [ˈdriɬɬu], [ˈcʰoɸɸã] > *[ˈcʰuɸɸã])
-Oral monophthongs are lost in intertonic syllables, and unstressed nasal vowels are denasalized. (*[ˈkeʊ̯ɬɬuti] > [ˈkeʊ̯ɬɬti], *[ˈcʰuɸɸã] > *[ˈcʰuɸɸa])
-Palatal stops become dental fricatives. (*[ˈcʰuɸɸa] > [ˈθuɸɸa])
-Fricatives are lost word-initially before stops. ([ˈstrõ] > [ˈtrõ])



Proto-Outer Eastern: [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬute] - [ˈndeɬɬeʊ̯] - [kaˈospan] - [ˈsron]
-[h] is deleted unconditionally. ([kaːˈhospan] > *[kaːˈospan])
-Liquids are lost following two or more consonants. ([ˈndreɬɬeʊ̯] > [ˈndeɬɬeʊ̯])
-Long vowels are shortened in unstressed syllables. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬuːteː] > [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬute], *[kaːˈospan] > [kaˈospan])

Proto-MN: [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬut] - [ˈndeɬɬe] - [ˈkoːʰpan] - [ˈron]
-Final short monophthongs are lost and final diphthongs are monophthongized. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬute] > [ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬut], [ˈndeɬɬe])
-In clusters of two vowels, the first is lost, resulting in the compensatory lengthening of the second. ([kaˈospan] > *[ˈkoːspan])
-Intervocalic clusters of fricatives followed by stops become preaspirated stops. (*[ˈkoːspan] > [ˈkoːʰpan])
-Fricatives are lost before liquids. ([ˈsron] > [ˈron])

M: [ˈkoʊ̯ɬɬuʔ] - [ˈniɬɬe] - [ˈkuːfaŋ] - [ˈnuŋ]
-In stressed syllables, [e(ː) o(ː) a(ː)(ɪ̯,ʊ̯)] are raised to [i(ː) u(ː) o(ː)(ɪ̯,ʊ̯)]. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬut] > *[ˈkoʊ̯ɬɬut], [ˈndeɬɬe] > *[ˈndiɬɬe], [ˈkoːʰpan] > *[ˈkuːʰpan], [ˈron] > *[ˈrun])
-Voiced stops are lost after homorganic nasals. (*[ˈndiɬɬe] > [ˈniɬɬe])
-[r] becomes [n] in the onset of a syllable with a nasal coda. (*[ˈrun] > *[ˈnun])
-Aspirated or preaspirated stops become fricatives. (*[ˈkuːʰpan] > *[ˈkuːfan])
-Coda stops and nasals merge as [ʔ] and [ŋ], respectively. (*[ˈkoʊ̯ɬɬut] > [ˈkoʊ̯ɬɬuʔ], *[ˈkuːfan] > [ˈkuːfaŋ], *[ˈnun] > [ˈnuŋ])

N: [ˈʔaʊ̯ɬuk] - [ˈgeɬe] - [ˈʔaːʰpã] - [ˈrõ]
-Coda nasals are lost, leaving behind nasalization on preceding vowels. ([ˈkoːʰpan] > *[ˈkoːʰpã], [ˈron] > [ˈrõ])
-Nasals are lost word-initially before homorganic voiced stops. ([ˈndeɬɬe] > *[ˈdeɬɬe])
-[oː] merges with [aː]. (*[ˈkoːʰpã] > *[ˈkaːʰpã])
-Degemination takes place. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬut] > *[ˈkaʊ̯ɬut], *[ˈdeɬɬe] > *[ˈdeɬe])
-[t d k g] become [k g ʔ ɦ]. (*[ˈkaʊ̯ɬut] > [ˈʔaʊ̯ɬuk], *[ˈdeɬe] > [ˈgeɬe], *[ˈkaːʰpã] > [ˈʔaːʰpã]).


Proto-OP: [ˈkaʊ̯ɬte] - [ˈdeɬeʊ̯] - [kaˈsopan] - [ˈr̥on]
-Degemination takes place. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬɬute] > *[ˈkaʊ̯ɬute], [ˈndeɬɬeʊ̯] > *[ˈndeɬeʊ̯])
-Intertonic short monophthongs are lost. (*[ˈkaʊ̯ɬute] > [ˈkaʊ̯ɬte])
-Nasals are lost before homorganic voiced stops. (*[ˈndeɬeʊ̯] > [ˈdeɬeʊ̯])
-After vowels, VC syllables undergo metathesis. ([kaˈospan] > [kaˈsopan])
-Clusters of fricatives followed by [r] become [r̥]. ([ˈsron] > [ˈr̥on])

O: [ˈkaːt͡ɬ] - [ˈdeɬeː] - [ˈskopãː] - [ˈɬõː]
-Vowels become lengthened and nasalized after the loss of following coda nasals. ([kaˈsopan] > *[kaˈsopãː], [ˈr̥on] > *[ˈr̥õː])
-Diphthongs monopthongize, become long versions of their nuclei. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬte] > *[ˈkaːɬte], [ˈdeɬeʊ̯] > [ˈdeɬeː])
-Intervocalically, clusters of fricatives followed by stops undergo metathesis, becoming affricates if homorganic. (*[ˈkaːɬte] > *[ˈkaːt͡ɬe])
-Final and pretonic short oral vowels are lost. (*[ˈkaːt͡ɬe] > [ˈkaːt͡ɬ], *[kaˈsopãː] > *[ˈksopãː])
-Initially, clusters of stops followed by fricatives undergo metathesis. (*[ˈksopãː] > [ˈskopãː])
-[r̥] merges with [ɬ]. (*[ˈr̥õː] > [ˈɬõː])

P: [ˈkoxt͡se] - [ˈd͡zeʝø] - [ˈkromb] - [ˈhon]
-[ɬ] becomes [x]. ([ˈkaʊ̯ɬte] > *[ˈkaʊ̯xte], [ˈdeɬeʊ̯] > *[ˈdexeʊ̯])
-Voiceless consonants become voiced intervocalically. (*[ˈdexeʊ̯] > *[ˈdeɣeʊ̯], [kaˈsopan] > *[kaˈzoban])
-Voiceless sonorants become [h]. ([ˈr̥on] > [ˈhon])
-[z] merges with [r]. (*[kaˈzoban] > *[kaˈroban])
-Unstressed monophthongs are lost before consonants. (*[kaˈroban] > *[ˈkrobn])
-[eʊ̯ oɪ̯ aɪ̯ aʊ̯] become [ø ø e o]. (*[ˈkaʊ̯xte] > *[ˈkoxte], *[ˈdeɣeʊ̯] > *[ˈdeɣø])
-Clusters of stops followed by nasals undergo metathesis, with the nasals assimilating in POA to the stops. (*[ˈkrobn] > [ˈkromb])
-Before front vowels, velars become palatal, and [t d] become [t͡s d͡z]. (*[ˈkoxte] > [ˈkoxt͡se], *[ˈdeɣø] > [ˈd͡zeʝø])

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I really like some of those sound changes (especially the metathesis in OP followed further metathesis in O), and MN was probably my favourite low-level branch (but I think that was fairly obvious from the start).

I can throw together something probably by Sunday afternoon (UK time), which then gives every a week to break, and then it kicks off the next week with something new.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
Ser
sinic
sinic
Posts: 271
Joined: 30 Jun 2012 06:13

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ser »

sangi39 wrote:
26 Apr 2020 23:17
HA! I'll tell you what threw me off with the revealed original forms: That it was *ʃl and not *ɬɬ. Lateral fricatives corresponding to post-alveolar fricatives is attested in the Semitic languages (with a hypothetical origin in *ɬ), and there's a similar correspondence in some dialects of Welsh (I think there it's [ɬ]~[ç]), so I just assumed that a single consonant would have been the original form (albeit geminate here), rather than a cluster [:P]
It is fascinating too. Makes me wonder about real-world reconstructions too.

Proto-World may not have even allowed geminate consonants. I guess this is the kind of thing that could be identified from a large dataset, where the group proto-languages could end up suggesting that Proto-World didn't have geminates (because they're too few or something, or because *ɬɬ seems to be the only one). But it could easily go wrong too, and end up with *ɬɬ, maybe also *jj and *nn for certain reconstruction conveniences given a large real dataset, and who knows what else that wasn't originally there.

A big problem about real-world reconstructed proto-languages is that, if everything (or nearly everything) works, they aren't actually falsifiable. I've definitely heard some criticism along those lines regarding today's ambitious reconstructions of Old Chinese (because of the necessary stretches needed to reconstruct the most we can of it), but it is usually accompanied with a sigh, because it's not like can do much better either due to the Chinese script.
hīc sunt linguificēs. hēr bēoþ tungemakeras.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7465
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

sangi39 wrote:
27 Apr 2020 23:03
I really like some of those sound changes (especially the metathesis in OP followed further metathesis in O), and MN was probably my favourite low-level branch (but I think that was fairly obvious from the start).
Thank you! I quite like how MN turned out as well.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Right, hopefully this makes sense.

I don't have a map for these, but roughly speaking the languages run from west to east

1)
['jas.tsʰrak]
['θpʰəʒi]
['θa.tsʼa]
['pʰiʃ]

2)
['jas.rak]
['s̪pʰʃi˨˩]
['t̪ʰa˨˩.tsa]
['firs]

3)
['jah.srak]
['fʂiʔ]
['θa.tsa]
[ha'ris]

4)
['ja:.ʂak]
['frʲiʔ]
['θa.tsa]
[a'rasu]

5)
[eɕ'ɕatʂ]
['sfje]
['θa.tsi]
[for'ʂu]

6)
[eθ'θjatʃ]
['spʰje]
['tʰa.tse]
[pʰor'ʂu]

7)
[as'tsʰraʃ]
['spʼrɪ]
['tʼa.tsa]
[pʰuʂ'ʂu]

8)
[as'tsʰrax]
['spʼrɪ]
['tʼats]
[pʰu'ʂu]

9)
[dʒa:'tʰrax]
[a'spʰri]
['ʈʰad]
[pʰe:'ʂu]

10)
[ʒe:'tʰra:]
[a'spʰri]
['ʈʰar]
[pʰei'ʒu]

11)
[ʝa˥'tʰra˥]
[i˥'spʰr˩]
['ʈʰa˩.ta˩]
[pʰr˥'ʂu˩]

12)
[ja˥'tʰra˥]
[je˥'pʰra˩]
['ʈʰat˩]
[pʰr˥'ʂu˩]

13)
[mes'tʰrɔj]
['spʰri]
['tʰɑ.tʼa]
[pʰra'so]

14)
[ŋɛ'tʰraj]
['spʰri]
['tʰɑ.tʼa]
[pʰrɔ'so]

15)
[ɣe'tʂʰe:]
['pʰʂi:]
['tʰɑ:.da]
[pʰʂa'zo:]

16)
[he'tʂʰei]
['ʈʂʰei]
['tʰɔɑl]
[ʈʂʰa'rou]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Massive thank you to Aszev for putting this together for me:

Image

(bigger version here

Hopefully this gives people a bit of a more easy-to-visualise way for people to see where the 16 languages are spoken.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

ɶʙ ɞʛ
sinic
sinic
Posts: 243
Joined: 02 Aug 2019 18:47

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

1)
['jas.tsʰrak]
['θpʰəʒi]
['θa.tsʼa]
['pʰiʃ]

2)
['jas.rak]
['s̪pʰʃi˨˩]
['t̪ʰa˨˩.tsa]
['firs]

3)
['jah.srak]
['fʂiʔ]
['θa.tsa]
[ha'ris]

4)
['ja:.ʂak]
['frʲiʔ]
['θa.tsa]
[a'rasu]

Proto-1234: *jastʰrak, *θpʰriʔ, *t̪ʰaʔsa, *pʰeres

5)
[eɕ'ɕatʂ]
['sfje]
['θa.tsi]
[for'ʂu]

6)
[eθ'θjatʃ]
['spʰje]
['tʰa.tse]
[pʰor'ʂu]

7)
[as'tsʰraʃ]
['spʼrɪ]
['tʼa.tsa]
[pʰuʂ'ʂu]

8)
[as'tsʰrax]
['spʼrɪ]
['tʼats]
[pʰu'ʂu]

Proto-56: *ajstʰrak, *spʰje, *tʰatse, *pʰorsu
Proto-78: *astsʰraʃ, *sp'ri, *tʼatsa, *pʰursu
Proto-5678: *ajstʰrac, *spre, *tatse, *pʰorsu

9)
[dʒa:'tʰrax]
[a'spʰri]
['ʈʰad]
[pʰe:'ʂu]

10)
[ʒe:'tʰra:]
[a'spʰri]
['ʈʰar]
[pʰei'ʒu]

11)
[ʝa˥'tʰra˥]
[i˥'spʰr˩]
['ʈʰa˩.ta˩]
[pʰr˥'ʂu˩]

12)
[ja˥'tʰra˥]
[je˥'pʰra˩]
['ʈʰat˩]
[pʰr˥'ʂu˩]

Proto-9ABC: *ja:tʰrax, *espʰr, *ʈʰata, *pʰersu

13)
[mes'tʰrɔj]
['spʰri]
['tʰɑ.tʼa]
[pʰra'so]

14)
[ŋɛ'tʰraj]
['spʰri]
['tʰɑ.tʼa]
[pʰrɔ'so]

15)
[ɣe'tʂʰe:]
['pʰʂi:]
['tʰɑ:.da]
[pʰʂa'zo:]

16)
[he'tʂʰei]
['ʈʂʰei]
['tʰɔɑl]
[ʈʂʰa'rou]

Proto-DEF0: *getʰraj, *spʰrej, *tʰatʼa, *pʰraso

Word 1: *jastʰrak *ajstʰrac *ja:tʰrax *getʰraj < *gajtʰrak
Word 2: *θpʰriʔ *spre *espʰr *spʰrej < *spriʔ
Word 3: *t̪ʰaʔsa *tatse *ʈʰata *tʰatʼa < *tʰaʔsa
Word 4: *pʰeres *pʰorsu *pʰersu *pʰraso < *pʰerasu

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7465
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

I finished the last of my exams/papers/etc. for the semester last night, so it's time to give this a go! I definitely like the looks of it. 
Spoiler:
In terms of grouping the languages together into lower-level branches, I've started out by just doing what feels easiest to me. I'm not sure how correct I am, but we'll see. 

1) [ˈjas.tsʰrak] - [ˈθpʰəʒi] - [ˈθa.tsʼa] - [ˈpʰiʃ]
2) [ˈjas.rak] - [ˈs̪pʰʃi˨˩] - [ˈt̪ʰa˨˩.tsa] - [ˈfirs]

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈs̪pʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰirs] (Proto-1/2)

I'm not confident about reconstructing [-t͡sʰ-] in the first word, but that's what I'll go with for now, partially based on the cognates in some of the more eastern languages. The same generally goes for [s̪-] in the second word, and the aspirated stops in general, I'd say. 

I originally assumed that the schwa in the second word in language 1 was original, and that it had been lost in language 2, but as I went on, comparing more and more languages, it occurred to me that the schwa might instead be epenthetic. 

The appearance of tone in language 2 is definitely interesting. For now, I guess I'm assuming that, in the second word, it's related to the final glottal stop found in the word's cognates in languages 3 and 4, and that in the third word, somewhat similarly, it's related to the ejective in the language 1 cognate. I could definitely be wrong, though.

3) [ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfʂiʔ] - [ˈθa.tsa] - [haˈris]
4) [ˈjaː.ʂak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθa.tsa] - [aˈrasu]

[ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθa.t͡sa] - [haˈrisu] (Proto-3/4)

The main source of uncertain for me here is the quality of the stressed vowel in the fourth word. Based on the cognates in languages 1 and 2, I'm tentatively reconstructing it as [-i-].

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈs̪pʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰirs] (Proto-1/2)
[ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθa.t͡sa] - [haˈrisu] (Proto-3/4)

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [pʰaˈrisu] (Proto-1/2/3/4)

I think the fourth word may end up being especially tricky. 

Looking at the cognates of the first word in the rest of the family, I'm assuming some sort of stress shift took place in these four westernmost languages, but I'm not sure if something similar affected the fourth word, or if there's something more going on, or perhaps both. 

5) [eɕˈɕatʂ] - [ˈsfje] - [ˈθa.tsi] - [forˈʂu]
6) [eθˈθjatʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.tse] - [pʰorˈʂu]

[esˈt͡sʰjat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.t͡se] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6)

The [-θˈθ-] in the first word in language 6 is interesting, because in the other three words, it seems to preserve aspirated stops. Perhaps this lenition is due to the preceding fricative? In any case, I feel like it's possible that there was already a medial geminate fricative in the first word in Proto-5/6 (if 5 and 6 actually do form a valid subbranch of the family), but I'm not sure what the POA would have been, so I'm sticking with [-sˈt͡sʰ-] for now. 

The difference in POA between the final affricates in the first word is interesting as well, but I'm not sure what to make of it quite yet. 

Also, I'm assuming that the final vowel in the third word was originally [-e] rather than [-i], given the fact that many of the word's cognates in other languages have a final low vowel. 

7) [asˈtsʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.tsa] - [pʰuʂˈʂu]
8) [asˈtsʰrax] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼats] - [pʰuˈʂu]

[asˈt͡sʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.t͡sa] - [pʰuʂˈʂu] (Proto-7/8)

The relationship between these two languages feels fairly straightforward, at least for now!

[esˈt͡sʰjat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.t͡se] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6)
[asˈt͡sʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.t͡sa] - [pʰuʂˈʂu] (Proto-7/8)

[jasˈt͡sʰrat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰrɪ] - [ˈtʰa.t͡sa] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6/7/8)

I'm not entirely certain about the qualities of the final vowels of the second and third words, or the pretonic vowel in the fourth word, but again, based on evidence from other members of the family, this is what I'll stick with for now.

The aspirated stops and ejectives are quite "troubling", though. At least in the positions that seemingly correspond to the positions of the ejectives in languages 7 and 8, all other languages seem to have fricatives or aspirated stops, so I feel like it doesn't make sense to assume the ejectives were original. Either way, though - and maybe I'll have to do a bit of research - but off the top of my head, I can't think of any instances of Cʰ > Cʼ, or vice versa, taking place in natural languages. Additionally, it's more complicated than just having ejectives in 7 and 8 corresponding to fricatives or aspirates elsewhere. For instance, in the second word, for languages 5 through 8, there's a correspondence between [f - pʰ - pʼ - pʼ], but one between [f - pʰ - pʰ - pʰ] in the fourth word. For now, I'm just going to reconstruct them all as aspirates, although I don't think that's correct.

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [pʰaˈrisu] (Proto-1/2/3/4)
[jasˈt͡sʰrat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰrɪ] - [ˈtʰa.t͡sa] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6/7/8)

[jasˈt͡sʰrac] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [pʰorəˈʂu] (Proto-Western)

As I said above, I think that I'm going to end up having the hardest time correctly reconstructing the fourth word.

 
9) [dʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu]
10) [ʒeːˈtʰraː] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰar] - [pʰeiʒu]

[d͡ʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu] (Proto-9/10)

I suppose I'm mainly basing my reconstruction of the sibilant in the fourth word off of evidence from seemingly corresponding segments in some of the word's cognates. 

11) [ʝa˥ˈtʰra˥] - [i˥ˈspʰr˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr˥ˈʂu˩]
12) [ja˥ˈtʰra˥] - [je˥ˈpʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰat˩] - [pʰr˥ˈʂu˩]

[ʝa˥ˈtʰra˥] - [je˥ˈspʰr̩˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr̩˥ˈʂu˩] (Proto-11/12)

I'm least certain about my reconstruction of the second word here, I'd say. The presence or absence of the medial sibilant, final [-r̩˩] vs. -[ra˩], and just the initial syllable in general are all giving me some trouble. 

[d͡ʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu] (Proto-9/10)
[ʝa˥ˈtʰra˥] - [je˥ˈspʰr̩˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr̩˥ˈʂu˩] (Proto-11/12)

[ɟahˈtʰrax] - [jaˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰa.da] - [pʰerˈʂu] (Proto-9/10/11/12)

I'm definitely not certain about my reconstructions of the initial syllables of the second and fourth words here.

13) [mesˈtʰrɔj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰraˈso]
14) [ŋɛˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso]

[ŋɛsˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso] (Proto-13/14)

I'm assuming that [ŋ-] is originally, but if that's correct, I'm not sure what conditioned the change to [m-]. 

The [ɔ - a], [a - a], and [a - ɔ] correspondences in the first, third, and fourth words, respectively, are also giving me some trouble. Based on the fourth word's cognates in languages 5 through 8, I'm tentatively assuming the vowel was rounded, but the cognates of the first and third words both generally seem to suggest [a] to me, although the third word does end in a front vowel in languages 5 and 6. 

I'm not entirely sure about the height of the vowel in the initial syllable of the first word, either. 

15) [ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː]
16) [heˈtʂʰei] - [ˈʈʂʰei] - [ˈtʰɔɑl] - [ʈʂʰaˈrou]

[ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː] (Proto-15/16)

I'm a little uncertain about my reconstruction of the third word here.

[ŋɛsˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso] (Proto-13/14)
[ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː] (Proto-15/16)

[gɛsˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso] (Proto-13/14/15/16)

I'm not entirely sure about the first syllable of the first word in particular. 

[ɟahˈtʰrax] - [jaˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰa.da] - [pʰerˈʂu] (Proto-9/10/11/12)
[gɛsˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso] (Proto-13/14/15/16)

[gɛsˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰa.tʼa] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-Eastern)

For the first word, I'm not entirely sure about the vowel of the first syllable or the final consonant.

For the second word, the initial syllable in languages 9 through 12 has proven rather troublesome. I'm assuming it's epenthetic, and a later development, but I'm not sure how late, if that makes sense. In other words, I'm not sure whether or not [a-] in words 9 and 10 and [i˥-] or [je˥-] in words 11 and 12 have a common ancestor. 

For the third word, something tells me I may be off, but this is what I'll stick with for now. 

For the fourth word, I'll admit that I've pretty much only reconstructed a syllabic consonant in the initial syllable because I'm otherwise completely stumped in terms of the quality of the vowel there. 

[jasˈt͡sʰrac] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [pʰorəˈʂu] (Proto-Western)
[gɛsˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰa.tʼa] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-Eastern)

[gʲasˈtʰrakʲ] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.ta] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-World)

I'm not entirely sure why I've decided to transcribe [kʲ gʲ] instead of [c ɟ], honestly. 

I'm assuming that a shift from [t(ʰ) ʈ(ʰ)] > [t͡s(ʰ) t(ʰ)] took place in the western languages. I like the idea of that, whether I'm right or not.

Finally, I suppose I'm assuming that something at least vaguely resembling some of the changes that affected Proto-Slavic *Co(r/l)C sequences took place in the western branch. 

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I'll be replying to this probably some time around 19:00UTC (11th May) if anyone wants to get a last minute first guess in [:)]

(had a busy weekend working from home, so didn't get a chance to go over submissions)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote:
03 May 2020 22:41
1)
['jas.tsʰrak]
['θpʰəʒi]
['θa.tsʼa]
['pʰiʃ]

2)
['jas.rak]
['s̪pʰʃi˨˩]
['t̪ʰa˨˩.tsa]
['firs]

3)
['jah.srak]
['fʂiʔ]
['θa.tsa]
[ha'ris]

4)
['ja:.ʂak]
['frʲiʔ]
['θa.tsa]
[a'rasu]

Proto-1234: *jastʰrak, *θpʰriʔ, *t̪ʰaʔsa, *pʰeres

5)
[eɕ'ɕatʂ]
['sfje]
['θa.tsi]
[for'ʂu]

6)
[eθ'θjatʃ]
['spʰje]
['tʰa.tse]
[pʰor'ʂu]

7)
[as'tsʰraʃ]
['spʼrɪ]
['tʼa.tsa]
[pʰuʂ'ʂu]

8)
[as'tsʰrax]
['spʼrɪ]
['tʼats]
[pʰu'ʂu]

Proto-56: *ajstʰrak, *spʰje, *tʰatse, *pʰorsu
Proto-78: *astsʰraʃ, *sp'ri, *tʼatsa, *pʰursu
Proto-5678: *ajstʰrac, *spre, *tatse, *pʰorsu

9)
[dʒa:'tʰrax]
[a'spʰri]
['ʈʰad]
[pʰe:'ʂu]

10)
[ʒe:'tʰra:]
[a'spʰri]
['ʈʰar]
[pʰei'ʒu]

11)
[ʝa˥'tʰra˥]
[i˥'spʰr˩]
['ʈʰa˩.ta˩]
[pʰr˥'ʂu˩]

12)
[ja˥'tʰra˥]
[je˥'pʰra˩]
['ʈʰat˩]
[pʰr˥'ʂu˩]

Proto-9ABC: *ja:tʰrax, *espʰr, *ʈʰata, *pʰersu

13)
[mes'tʰrɔj]
['spʰri]
['tʰɑ.tʼa]
[pʰra'so]

14)
[ŋɛ'tʰraj]
['spʰri]
['tʰɑ.tʼa]
[pʰrɔ'so]

15)
[ɣe'tʂʰe:]
['pʰʂi:]
['tʰɑ:.da]
[pʰʂa'zo:]

16)
[he'tʂʰei]
['ʈʂʰei]
['tʰɔɑl]
[ʈʂʰa'rou]

Proto-DEF0: *getʰraj, *spʰrej, *tʰatʼa, *pʰraso

Word 1: *jastʰrak *ajstʰrac *ja:tʰrax *getʰraj < *gajtʰrak
Word 2: *θpʰriʔ *spre *espʰr *spʰrej < *spriʔ
Word 3: *t̪ʰaʔsa *tatse *ʈʰata *tʰatʼa < *tʰaʔsa
Word 4: *pʰeres *pʰorsu *pʰersu *pʰraso < *pʰerasu
Spoiler:
Proto-1234: *jastʰrak, *θpʰriʔ, *t̪ʰaʔsa, *pʰeres
Valid grouping
Correctly reconstructed the glottal stops in Word 2 and Word 4
Word 1, 2, and 3 are all almost right (all of them are off by just one segment each)
With word 3, correct reconstruction of the initial and the rhotic, but the rest is off.

---

Proto-56: *ajstʰrak, *spʰje, *tʰatse, *pʰorsu
Proto-78: *astsʰraʃ, *sp'ri, *tʼatsa, *pʰursu
Proto-5678: *ajstʰrac, *spre, *tatse, *pʰorsu
Both valid groupings (56, 78, and 5678)

I think you're a little further off with this group.

56) The initial diphthong of Word 1 is wrong, as is the onset cluster for the second syllable, as well as the final.
Word 2 is spot on, and Word 3 and Word 4 are only off by one segment each

78) As with 56, the initial vowel is incorrect, as is the final, but closer overall.
Word 2 is close, but the vowel quality is off, and Word 3 and Word 4 here are, as above, off by one one segment each.

---

Proto-9ABC: *ja:tʰrax, *espʰr, *ʈʰata, *pʰersu

A valid grouping again, but I think trying to deal with them as one group might have thrown you off.
Word 1, the initial is close enough, I'd think, and I can see why a straight /j/ would be reconstructed, so I'd accept it. The vowels are right in terms of quality, but you're missing a segment from the first syllable which you've reconstructed as length, and the final consonant is off.
Word 2 is... I'd say "half-right", in that you're missing half of the word. You're right that there's an initial vowel, but it isn't /e/, and /spʰr/ is right.
Word 3 is close, but it's missing a segment.
Word 4 is close, but one segment is off, while you've reconstructed one more than there was as well.

---

Proto-DEF0: *getʰraj, *spʰrej, *tʰatʼa, *pʰraso

Another valid grouping.

Word 1, the initial is in the right ballpark, but the MOA is wrong, and you're missing a segment from the first syllable. Spot on for the second syllable though.
Word 2 has the right initial cluster, but the wrong vowel and final
Word 3 is almost right, but /tʼ/ doesn't go that far back in the grouping
Word 4 is almost right, but the quality of the final vowel is off


------


Word 1: *jastʰrak *ajstʰrac *ja:tʰrax *getʰraj < *gajtʰrak
Word 2: *θpʰriʔ *spre *espʰr *spʰrej < *spriʔ
Word 3: *t̪ʰaʔsa *tatse *ʈʰata *tʰatʼa < *tʰaʔsa
Word 4: *pʰeres *pʰorsu *pʰersu *pʰraso < *pʰerasu

Word 1, the first syllable is wrong. Treating /aj/ as a diphthong, the initial is incorrect, the vowel is wrong, and you're missing a segment. The second syllable is almost right, but the initial is off
Word 2 is almost right, but because of something wrong in reconstructing a later proto-language, you're missing one feature.
Word 3 is, I'd think, about half right. The initial is off, the first vowel is right, as is the reconstruction of the glottal stop, but the second syllable is wrong.
Word 4 has too many syllables. You've got the initial, the rhotic, and the final vowel right, but everything else is off.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
I finished the last of my exams/papers/etc. for the semester last night, so it's time to give this a go! I definitely like the looks of it. 

In terms of grouping the languages together into lower-level branches, I've started out by just doing what feels easiest to me. I'm not sure how correct I am, but we'll see. 
That's fair [:)] Let's see how it went [:D]

shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
1) [ˈjas.tsʰrak] - [ˈθpʰəʒi] - [ˈθa.tsʼa] - [ˈpʰiʃ]
2) [ˈjas.rak] - [ˈs̪pʰʃi˨˩] - [ˈt̪ʰa˨˩.tsa] - [ˈfirs]

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈs̪pʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰirs] (Proto-1/2)

I'm not confident about reconstructing [-t͡sʰ-] in the first word, but that's what I'll go with for now, partially based on the cognates in some of the more eastern languages. The same generally goes for [s̪-] in the second word, and the aspirated stops in general, I'd say. 

I originally assumed that the schwa in the second word in language 1 was original, and that it had been lost in language 2, but as I went on, comparing more and more languages, it occurred to me that the schwa might instead be epenthetic. 

The appearance of tone in language 2 is definitely interesting. For now, I guess I'm assuming that, in the second word, it's related to the final glottal stop found in the word's cognates in languages 3 and 4, and that in the third word, somewhat similarly, it's related to the ejective in the language 1 cognate. I could definitely be wrong, though.
Well, that's one grouping that's correct, and you've correctly reconstructed the proto-words. All spot on [:D] (well, sort of. /rʲ/ in Word 2 does appear in an early stage of the language, but given that, I've going to treat it as close enough that it doesn't really matter)

The schwa in 2.1 is indeed epenethetic, and you're right about the tone in Language 2, and how it relates to Languages 1, 3, and 4 [;)]



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
3) [ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfʂiʔ] - [ˈθa.tsa] - [haˈris]
4) [ˈjaː.ʂak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθa.tsa] - [aˈrasu]

[ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθa.t͡sa] - [haˈrisu] (Proto-3/4)

The main source of uncertain for me here is the quality of the stressed vowel in the fourth word. Based on the cognates in languages 1 and 2, I'm tentatively reconstructing it as [-i-].
Another valid grouping, and for the most part you've got the proto-words right.

There is a feature in Word 3 that you thought might relate to tone in Language 2, and the ejective in Language 1, but it dropped out in 3 and 4, so I can see why people just wouldn't reconstruct it.

I'll happily treat the initial /h/ in Word 4 s correct (similarly to /rʲ/ above, /h/ appears later, but before the break-up, so, it's "immediately correct"). And you're right to be hesitant about the stressed vowel too. It's not /i/, but it's not /a/ either.



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈs̪pʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰirs] (Proto-1/2)
[ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθa.t͡sa] - [haˈrisu] (Proto-3/4)

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [pʰaˈrisu] (Proto-1/2/3/4)

I think the fourth word may end up being especially tricky. 

Looking at the cognates of the first word in the rest of the family, I'm assuming some sort of stress shift took place in these four westernmost languages, but I'm not sure if something similar affected the fourth word, or if there's something more going on, or perhaps both. 

This is a valid grouping as well.

Words 1, 2, and 3 are spot on as well, and you're right about the stress shift in this branch as well, and that it did affect Word 4. I don't know if it helps at all, but Word 4 here has one too many syllables.


shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
5) [eɕˈɕatʂ] - [ˈsfje] - [ˈθa.tsi] - [forˈʂu]
6) [eθˈθjatʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.tse] - [pʰorˈʂu]

[esˈt͡sʰjat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.t͡se] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6)

The [-θˈθ-] in the first word in language 6 is interesting, because in the other three words, it seems to preserve aspirated stops. Perhaps this lenition is due to the preceding fricative? In any case, I feel like it's possible that there was already a medial geminate fricative in the first word in Proto-5/6 (if 5 and 6 actually do form a valid subbranch of the family), but I'm not sure what the POA would have been, so I'm sticking with [-sˈt͡sʰ-] for now. 

The difference in POA between the final affricates in the first word is interesting as well, but I'm not sure what to make of it quite yet. 

Also, I'm assuming that the final vowel in the third word was originally [-e] rather than [-i], given the fact that many of the word's cognates in other languages have a final low vowel. 
And again, this is a valid grouping, and other than the final vowel of Word 3, you've reconstructed all of the proto-words correctly.

The aspirated /t͡sʰ/ was treated differently, mostly on the basis that it was an affricate rather than a stop, so it shifts to a fricative as an exception [:)]



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
7) [asˈtsʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.tsa] - [pʰuʂˈʂu]
8) [asˈtsʰrax] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼats] - [pʰuˈʂu]

[asˈt͡sʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.t͡sa] - [pʰuʂˈʂu] (Proto-7/8)

The relationship between these two languages feels fairly straightforward, at least for now!
Valid grouping, and for the most part, completely correct on the reconstructions as well.

The only thing I have is that the final vowel of Word 3 is off (it's actually the same vowel as in Word 3 of Proto-5/6).

I'm happy to accept the coda /ʂ/ of the first syllable of Word 4 as well (as has happened elsewhere, I have this down as a late stage sound that does arise before the languages split, so it's immediately correct, because on the basis of what's there in 7 and 8, I can't think of a reason not to reach that conclusion [:)]



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
[esˈt͡sʰjat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.t͡se] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6)
[asˈt͡sʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.t͡sa] - [pʰuʂˈʂu] (Proto-7/8)

[jasˈt͡sʰrat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰrɪ] - [ˈtʰa.t͡sa] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6/7/8)

I'm not entirely certain about the qualities of the final vowels of the second and third words, or the pretonic vowel in the fourth word, but again, based on evidence from other members of the family, this is what I'll stick with for now.

The aspirated stops and ejectives are quite "troubling", though. At least in the positions that seemingly correspond to the positions of the ejectives in languages 7 and 8, all other languages seem to have fricatives or aspirated stops, so I feel like it doesn't make sense to assume the ejectives were original. Either way, though - and maybe I'll have to do a bit of research - but off the top of my head, I can't think of any instances of Cʰ > Cʼ, or vice versa, taking place in natural languages. Additionally, it's more complicated than just having ejectives in 7 and 8 corresponding to fricatives or aspirates elsewhere. For instance, in the second word, for languages 5 through 8, there's a correspondence between [f - pʰ - pʼ - pʼ], but one between [f - pʰ - pʰ - pʰ] in the fourth word. For now, I'm just going to reconstruct them all as aspirates, although I don't think that's correct.
A valid grouping here too.

Word 1 is for the most part correct. The initial /ja-/ is off, but that's about it.
Word 2 is pretty much correct as well, but it's missing one segment (you've got the right vowel though)
Word 3 is also missing one segment, and, yeah, you're right to be unsure about the final vowel. Close with /a/, but slightly off.
Word 4 is sort of close. The rhotic is correct, but /-or-/ is not.

My main hint for the missing segment in Word 2 and Word 3, is to go back to the thoughts you were having about tone in Language 2 [;)]



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [pʰaˈrisu] (Proto-1/2/3/4)
[jasˈt͡sʰrat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰrɪ] - [ˈtʰa.t͡sa] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6/7/8)

[jasˈt͡sʰrac] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [pʰorəˈʂu] (Proto-Western)

As I said above, I think that I'm going to end up having the hardest time correctly reconstructing the fourth word.
Valid grouping here.

The initial /ja-/ is off, for the same reason it's off in Proto-5/6/7/8, and the final consonant here is off as well (the correspondence, I think, is a little more straight forward, since this segment on changed in one branch)
Word 2 is spot on, and Word 3 is basically right, with the exception of the final vowel.
For Word 4, the initial is correct, the rhotic is correct, /-ˈʂu/ is correct, but the number of syllables is wrong.



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
 
9) [dʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu]
10) [ʒeːˈtʰraː] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰar] - [pʰeiʒu]

[d͡ʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu] (Proto-9/10)

I suppose I'm mainly basing my reconstruction of the sibilant in the fourth word off of evidence from seemingly corresponding segments in some of the word's cognates. 
Valid grouping again.

Word one is almost correct, but the initial is off.
Words 2, 3, and 4 are spot on.



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
11) [ʝa˥ˈtʰra˥] - [i˥ˈspʰr˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr˥ˈʂu˩]
12) [ja˥ˈtʰra˥] - [je˥ˈpʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰat˩] - [pʰr˥ˈʂu˩]

[ʝa˥ˈtʰra˥] - [je˥ˈspʰr̩˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr̩˥ˈʂu˩] (Proto-11/12)

I'm least certain about my reconstruction of the second word here, I'd say. The presence or absence of the medial sibilant, final [-r̩˩] vs. -[ra˩], and just the initial syllable in general are all giving me some trouble. 
Valid group, and I'd say there's only two mistake, a) the initial of Word 1, and b) the /je-/ of Word 2.

The incorrect final part of Word 2 is my fault. I've just noticed that I copied Word 2 in language 11 wrong. That should be /i˥ˈspʰra˩/, which I hope helps. I'll change it in the original post so everyone can keep track as well.



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
[d͡ʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu] (Proto-9/10)
[ʝa˥ˈtʰra˥] - [je˥ˈspʰr̩˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr̩˥ˈʂu˩] (Proto-11/12)

[ɟahˈtʰrax] - [jaˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰa.da] - [pʰerˈʂu] (Proto-9/10/11/12)

I'm definitely not certain about my reconstructions of the initial syllables of the second and fourth words here.

Correct grouping, and fairly close on the reconstructions.
The initial of Word 1 is wrong, but after that it's correct.
The initial /je-/ of Word 2 is off, and there's one missing segment from the end of the word, but the rest is fine.
Word 3 is close, but the medial /d/ is the wrong MOA, and there's one segment missing from the word overall.
Word 4 is pretty close, but /-er/ is wrong (although the rhotic is right)


shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
13) [mesˈtʰrɔj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰraˈso]
14) [ŋɛˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso]

[ŋɛsˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso] (Proto-13/14)

I'm assuming that [ŋ-] is originally, but if that's correct, I'm not sure what conditioned the change to [m-]. 

The [ɔ - a], [a - a], and [a - ɔ] correspondences in the first, third, and fourth words, respectively, are also giving me some trouble. Based on the fourth word's cognates in languages 5 through 8, I'm tentatively assuming the vowel was rounded, but the cognates of the first and third words both generally seem to suggest [a] to me, although the third word does end in a front vowel in languages 5 and 6. 

I'm not entirely sure about the height of the vowel in the initial syllable of the first word, either. 
Correct grouping, and more or less right on the reconstructions.
Word 1 is only wrong regarding the vowel of the initial syllables (the shift to /m/ in 13 was just an unconditional merger of bilabial and velar nasals)
Word 2 and 3 are correct (I have a segment missing in 2, but it's another one of those "gone by the late stages" things again, and it relates to the ejective in Word 3)
Word 4 is more or less correct, except for the vowel of the initial syllable, which you expected.

For /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ in Language 14, have a look at the surrounding vowels [;)]



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
15) [ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː]
16) [heˈtʂʰei] - [ˈʈʂʰei] - [ˈtʰɔɑl] - [ʈʂʰaˈrou]

[ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː] (Proto-15/16)

I'm a little uncertain about my reconstruction of the third word here.
Correct grouping, and I think all of those words are correct (or as close as)



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
[ŋɛsˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso] (Proto-13/14)
[ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː] (Proto-15/16)

[gɛsˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso] (Proto-13/14/15/16)

I'm not entirely sure about the first syllable of the first word in particular. 
Valid grouping here too.

The ejective in Word 3 doesn't go back this far, though, but, again, it's tied to a missing segment in your Word 2 at this level.
The initial for Word 1 is the right POA, but the wrong MOA, and the incorrect vowel in Word 4's initial syllable ties back to what was mention above.
Other than that, everything looks spot on.



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
[ɟahˈtʰrax] - [jaˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰa.da] - [pʰerˈʂu] (Proto-9/10/11/12)
[gɛsˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso] (Proto-13/14/15/16)

[gɛsˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰa.tʼa] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-Eastern)

For the first word, I'm not entirely sure about the vowel of the first syllable or the final consonant.

For the second word, the initial syllable in languages 9 through 12 has proven rather troublesome. I'm assuming it's epenthetic, and a later development, but I'm not sure how late, if that makes sense. In other words, I'm not sure whether or not [a-] in words 9 and 10 and [i˥-] or [je˥-] in words 11 and 12 have a common ancestor. 

For the third word, something tells me I may be off, but this is what I'll stick with for now. 

For the fourth word, I'll admit that I've pretty much only reconstructed a syllabic consonant in the initial syllable because I'm otherwise completely stumped in terms of the quality of the vowel there. 
This is a valid grouping, and, again, you're quite close on the reconstructions.

The initial for Word 1 is off, but it might become clearer why on your second run.
Word 2 and Word 3 are close, but both missing a segment (hint, the ejective doesn't go this for back), and the final vowel is off.
Word 4 is close, but its missing a vowel in the initial syllable.



shimobaatar wrote:
06 May 2020 15:36
[jasˈt͡sʰrac] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [pʰorəˈʂu] (Proto-Western)
[gɛsˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰa.tʼa] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-Eastern)

[gʲasˈtʰrakʲ] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.ta] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-World)

I'm not entirely sure why I've decided to transcribe [kʲ gʲ] instead of [c ɟ], honestly. 

I'm assuming that a shift from [t(ʰ) ʈ(ʰ)] > [t͡s(ʰ) t(ʰ)] took place in the western languages. I like the idea of that, whether I'm right or not.

Finally, I suppose I'm assuming that something at least vaguely resembling some of the changes that affected Proto-Slavic *Co(r/l)C sequences took place in the western branch. 
For Word 1, /gʲa-/ is incorrect, as is the final consonant, but your thought about /t(ʰ)/ > /ts(ʰ)/ is correct for the Western languages
Word 2 is spot on.
Word 3 is close (just the final vowel is off), and you're right about the /ʈ(ʰ)/ > /t(ʰ)/ change in the Western languages as well.
Word 4 is almost right. As you're expecting, the /-or-/ is off. This syllable was particularly subject to change in the daughter languages, because of its relative "weakness".
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Hopefully it won't be another week before I can respond, but it might end up being over the weekend if we get held back at work for a bit while we catch up from a busy day today, so could be plenty of time for more guesses.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 7465
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:14
Hopefully it won't be another week before I can respond, but it might end up being over the weekend if we get held back at work for a bit while we catch up from a busy day today, so could be plenty of time for more guesses.
No worries! Real life responsibilities come first, of course!

Spoiler:

Thank you very much for your response! Hopefully I've taken everything you've said into account. 

1) [ˈjas.tsʰrak] - [ˈθpʰəʒi] - [ˈθa.tsʼa] - [ˈpʰiʃ]
2) [ˈjas.rak] - [ˈs̪pʰʃi˨˩] - [ˈt̪ʰa˨˩.tsa] - [ˈfirs]

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈs̪pʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰirs] (Proto-1/2)

Regarding [rʲ] in the second word being close enough, would [ʒ] be "better"? 

3) [ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfʂiʔ] - [ˈθa.tsa] - [haˈris]
4) [ˈjaː.ʂak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθa.tsa] - [aˈrasu] 

[ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθaʔ.t͡sa] - [haˈresu] (Proto-3/4)

Regarding [h] in the fourth word, would [f] be "better"?
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
And you're right to be hesitant about the stressed vowel too. It's not /i/, but it's not /a/ either.
In light of this, I'm tentatively "compromising" with [e]. 

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈs̪pʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰirs] (Proto-1/2)
[ˈjah.srak] - [ˈfrʲiʔ] - [ˈθaʔ.t͡sa] - [haˈresu] (Proto-3/4)

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰr̩su] (Proto-1/2/3/4)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Words 1, 2, and 3 are spot on as well, and you're right about the stress shift in this branch as well, and that it did affect Word 4. I don't know if it helps at all, but Word 4 here has one too many syllables.
Interesting! Hmm…

This (the fourth word in Proto-1/2/3/4) has proven to be the most challenging part of this whole thing, to the point where I'm coming back to it after dealing with literally everything else first. 

I ended up rambling on a bit here, but I've attempted to condense some of the main "points" here:

I'm fairly confident about the initial consonant. I suppose I'm assuming that the differing reflexes of [pʰ-] in 3/4 are based on the fact that it was originally preceded by [s-] in the second word, but not in the fourth. 

I'm also fairly confident about the other two consonants as well, although not about their positions in the word. The fact that, in languages 3 and 4, the rhotic and sibilant are separated by a (difficult to reconstruct) vowel is particularly troubling, given the evidence from most of the other Western languages. 

Out of these four languages, the fourth word only ends in a vowel in language 4. Based on the cognates from much of the rest of the family, I'm going to continue to assume, for now, that language 4 was the only member of this branch to retain that [-u].

At least for now, I'm going to assume that stress only shifted once, and therefore, I feel that I should assume that the stressed vowels in all four languages correspond to one another. 

After discarding a number of possible reconstructions, I think I'll go with [ˈpʰr̩su] for now, although I'm not at all confident that it's correct. I'm still stumped as to how to explain this word's developments in this part of the family, especially without reconstructing three syllables. My biggest issue, I suppose, is how to explain the pre-tonic syllable in 3/4. If [ˈpʰr̩su] were correct, I could see it becoming [ˈpʰirs] in 1/2 quite easily. In 3/4, however, the rhotic and the sibilant are separate, so it likely became something like [ˈpʰrVsu] at first instead. But then why break up that initial cluster with an [-a-] if the one in the second word was left alone? Maybe [pʰ] had already become [h] by that point, and although [frʲ-] was allowed, [hr-] wasn't?

In any case, I'll definitely have to give all of this a lot more thought, but to prevent myself from getting stuck here, so to speak, and never submitting anything, this is where I'll leave it for now. 

5) [eɕˈɕatʂ] - [ˈsfje] - [ˈθa.tsi] - [forˈʂu]
6) [eθˈθjatʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.tse] - [pʰorˈʂu]

[esˈt͡sʰjat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.t͡sæ] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
The aspirated /t͡sʰ/ was treated differently, mostly on the basis that it was an affricate rather than a stop, so it shifts to a fricative as an exception [:)]
Ah, that makes sense!
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
And again, this is a valid grouping, and other than the final vowel of Word 3, you've reconstructed all of the proto-words correctly.
After reading this, I was originally going to suggest [-i] instead, but given the final [-a] in the word's cognates in languages 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 13, 14, and 15, reconstructing a high vowel here didn't quite feel right to me. Once I got to your response to my reconstruction of Proto-7/8, however…

I'm still not sure how comfortable I am with positing [-æ] > [-i], but I'll stick with it for now. 

7) [asˈtsʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.tsa] - [pʰuʂˈʂu]
8) [asˈtsʰrax] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼats] - [pʰuˈʂu]

[asˈt͡sʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.t͡sæ] - [pʰuʂˈʂu] (Proto-7/8)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
The only thing I have is that the final vowel of Word 3 is off (it's actually the same vowel as in Word 3 of Proto-5/6).
Oh, really? Interesting… 

In languages 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, and 11, the third word has [a] in both syllables. In languages 5 and 6, it has [a] in the first syllable, but either [-i] or [-e] in the second syllable. In languages 13, 14, and 15, it has [ɑ(ː)] in the first syllable, but [-a] in the second. In all other languages, the third word is monosyllabic, and the nucleus of its one syllable is [a], except for in language 16, where it's [ɔɑ]. 

Based on the difference in backness between the vowels of the third word's two syllables in languages 5, 6, 13, 14, and 15, I'm tentatively going to go with [-æ] here. 
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
I'm happy to accept the coda /ʂ/ of the first syllable of Word 4 as well (as has happened elsewhere, I have this down as a late stage sound that does arise before the languages split, so it's immediately correct, because on the basis of what's there in 7 and 8, I can't think of a reason not to reach that conclusion [:)]
Is [pʰurˈʂu] more of what you had in mind? 

Thank you for your leniency, so to speak, in instances like this, by the way!

[esˈt͡sʰjat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰje] - [ˈtʰa.t͡sæ] - [pʰorˈʂu] (Proto-5/6)
[asˈt͡sʰraʃ] - [ˈspʼrɪ] - [ˈtʼa.t͡sæ] - [pʰuʂˈʂu] (Proto-7/8)

[asˈt͡sʰrat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰrɪʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sæ] - [pʰurˈʂu] (Proto-5/6/7/8)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
My main hint for the missing segment in Word 2 and Word 3, is to go back to the thoughts you were having about tone in Language 2 [;)] 
Thank you!
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Word 3 is also missing one segment, and, yeah, you're right to be unsure about the final vowel. Close with /a/, but slightly off.
Hmm… if [a] is just "slightly off", I feel a bit better about [-æ]. 
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Word 1 is for the most part correct. The initial /ja-/ is off, but that's about it.
Interesting… given the presence of an initial consonant in all other cognates, I assumed there was one originally here, too, despite none of the languages in this branch having an initial consonant in the first word. For now I'm going to assume there was no initial consonant in Proto-5/6/7/8.

Given the difference between [e] in 5/6 and [a] in 7/8, as well as the [j-] in languages 1, 2, 3, 4, and 12, I assumed there was originally an initial [j-] that caused the vowel to front in 5/6, but disappeared in all four languages. Looking over the cognates of the first word in general, I'm actually not entirely sure whether the vowel was originally something closer to [a] or something closer to [e]. Well, of all the "Western" languages, only 5/6 have [e]… so maybe [a] was fronted and raised after the shift from [r] > [j] in the following syllable? Or [e] could have become [a] in 7/8 under the influence of the [a] in the following syllable…

I may just be reading into this too much, but because of the way you phrased your response, referring to the two initial segments [ja-], I'm tentatively going to assume it was just [e-] instead. But it does bother me that all other "Western" languages have [a(ː)]…

Actually, based on your feedback on my reconstruction of Proto-Western, I might flip back to [a-] and assume I was just reading too much into what you'd said. 
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Word 4 is sort of close. The rhotic is correct, but /-or-/ is not.
Another tough one… since 5/6 both have [-o-] and 7/8 both have [-u-], I'm tempted to just tweak my reconstruction to [pʰurˈʂu], but again, the way you've worded your response makes me think there might be more to it. The fact that, although you've said it's correct, the rhotic is included in the [-or-] sequence that you've identified as incorrect suggests, to me, the possibility that the position of the rhotic inside the word is also off, in addition to the quality of the vowel. 

However, given that the rhotic appears immediately before the sibilant in 5/6, as well as my assumption that the geminate [ʂ] in language 7 derives from an earlier sequence of [-rˈʂ-], it doesn't feel right to reconstruct, for instance, [pʰr-] for Proto-5/6/7/8. 

For now, then, I'm just going to hope I'm overthinking things here and simply change the vowel to [-u-].

[ˈjas.t͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰrʲiʔ] - [ˈt̪ʰaʔ.t͡sa] - [ˈpʰr̩su] (Proto-1/2/3/4)
[asˈt͡sʰrat͡ʃ] - [ˈspʰrɪʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sæ] - [pʰurˈʂu] (Proto-5/6/7/8)

[asˈt͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sæ] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-Western)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
The initial /ja-/ is off, for the same reason it's off in Proto-5/6/7/8, and the final consonant here is off as well (the correspondence, I think, is a little more straight forward, since this segment on changed in one branch)
Regarding the initial part of the first word, I'm very uncertain about this, but for now, I'm assuming it was [a-] in Proto-Western, and that it later acquired [j-] in 1/2/3/4 (similarly to at least some of the Slavic cognates of the English word "apple", for instance), and was "umlaut-ed" to [e] in 5/6 due to the [j] (< [r]) in the following syllable. 

I still can't shake the feeling that the intended meaning of your comment was that both [j-] and [-a-] are off, however…
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
For Word 4, the initial is correct, the rhotic is correct, /-ˈʂu/ is correct, but the number of syllables is wrong.
 

Interesting… this fourth word definitely is going to be the hardest to reconstruct!

 
9) [dʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu]
10) [ʒeːˈtʰraː] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰar] - [pʰeiʒu]

[ʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu] (Proto-9/10)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Word one is almost correct, but the initial is off.
I don't quite feel right positing [ʒ] > [d͡ʒ] here, but given the initial fricative and approximant in 11 and 12, respectively, I suppose I'm giving it a shot. 

11) [ʝa˥ˈtʰra˥] - [i˥ˈspʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr˥ˈʂu˩]
12) [ja˥ˈtʰra˥] - [je˥ˈpʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰat˩] - [pʰr˥ˈʂu˩]

[ja˥ˈtʰra˥] - [i˥ˈspʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr̩˥ˈʂu˩] (Proto-11/12)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
The incorrect final part of Word 2 is my fault. I've just noticed that I copied Word 2 in language 11 wrong. That should be /i˥ˈspʰra˩/, which I hope helps. I'll change it in the original post so everyone can keep track as well.
Oh, no worries, it happens! Thank you for letting me know!
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Valid group, and I'd say there's only two mistake, a) the initial of Word 1, and b) the /je-/ of Word 2.
I might just switch to [j-] and [i-] for now, but I don't feel particularly confident. 

[ʒaːˈtʰrax] - [aˈspʰri] - [ˈʈʰad] - [pʰeːˈʂu] (Proto-9/10)
[ja˥ˈtʰra˥] - [i˥ˈspʰra˩] - [ˈʈʰa˩.ta˩] - [pʰr̩˥ˈʂu˩] (Proto-11/12)

[jahˈtʰrax] - [əˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tʼa] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-9/10/11/12)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
The initial of Word 1 is wrong, but after that it's correct.
Wow, that's giving me all sorts of trouble! 
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
The initial /je-/ of Word 2 is off, and there's one missing segment from the end of the word, but the rest is fine.
Hmm… I might just reconstruct the first syllable of the second word as an epenthetic schwa for the moment.

Regarding the segments missing from the second and third words, I suppose I should have been able to figure it out, haha. 
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Word 3 is close, but the medial /d/ is the wrong MOA, and there's one segment missing from the word overall.
Oh wow, MOA? I could have seen it being off in terms of voicing, but this surprises me, considering it's a stop in three of the four languages, and I don't think I want to posit [r] > [t] here, for instance. Looking at cognates from the rest of the "Eastern" languages, it's [l] in 16 and an ejective stop in 13 and 14. I typically think of the difference between, say, [t] and [tʼ], as a difference in airstream mechanism, although I suppose that could/would fall under MOA? 

Anyway, it sounds like there's still a glottal stop present here, and it seems to me like the ejectives in other languages have resulted from the loss of a glottal stop before a pulmonic egressive stop or affricate, but if [d] is off here in terms of MOA, this is all I can think of right now, although I'm not at all certain. 
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Word 4 is pretty close, but /-er/ is wrong (although the rhotic is right)
Maybe the syllabic [r] was original to Proto-9/10/11/12, then? Hmm…

13) [mesˈtʰrɔj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰraˈso]
14) [ŋɛˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰri] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰrɔˈso]

[ŋesˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰraˈso] (Proto-13/14)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
(the shift to /m/ in 13 was just an unconditional merger of bilabial and velar nasals)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
For /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ in Language 14, have a look at the surrounding vowels [;)]
Thank you!

I wasn't sure whether to reconstruct [o] or [a] for the first syllable of the fourth word after reading this, but based on the cognates in languages 15 and 16, I'll stick with [a] for now. 
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
Word 2 and 3 are correct (I have a segment missing in 2, but it's another one of those "gone by the late stages" things again, and it relates to the ejective in Word 3)
Ah, thank you again!

However, although I'm now more certain about assuming [-ʔ.t-] > [-tʼ-] here, I'm less certain about the situation regarding the third word in Proto-9/10/11/12.

15) [ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː]
16) [heˈtʂʰei] - [ˈʈʂʰei] - [ˈtʰɔɑl] - [ʈʂʰaˈrou]

[ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː] (Proto-15/16)

[ŋesˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰɑ.tʼa] - [pʰraˈso] (Proto-13/14)
[ɣeˈtʂʰeː] - [ˈpʰʂiː] - [ˈtʰɑː.da] - [pʰʂaˈzoː] (Proto-15/16)

[ɣesˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰɑʔ.ta] - [pʰraˈso] (Proto-13/14/15/16)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
The ejective in Word 3 doesn't go back this far, though, but, again, it's tied to a missing segment in your Word 2 at this level.
The initial for Word 1 is the right POA, but the wrong MOA, and the incorrect vowel in Word 4's initial syllable ties back to what was mention above.
Other than that, everything looks spot on.
Thank you!

I'm not entirely sure about reconstructing [ɣ-] here, but I'll stick with it for now.

[jahˈtʰrax] - [əˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tʼa] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-9/10/11/12)
[ɣesˈtʰraj] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰɑʔ.ta] - [pʰraˈso] (Proto-13/14/15/16)

[ɣesˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tæ] - [pʰrəˈʂu] (Proto-Eastern)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
The initial for Word 1 is off, but it might become clearer why on your second run.
Word 2 and Word 3 are close, but both missing a segment (hint, the ejective doesn't go this for back), and the final vowel is off.
Word 4 is close, but its missing a vowel in the initial syllable.
Considering the initial consonants in the first word in 9/10/11/12, I'm feeling somewhat "better" about [ɣ-].

Oh, the final vowel of the third word is off? Hmm… based on what I've reconstructed for Proto-Western, I might just put [-æ] for now. 

For the initial syllable of the fourth word, I think I'm just going to reconstruct the vowel as schwa for now, although I'm admittedly not sure whether to assume [-rə-] or [-ər-].

[asˈt͡sʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈtʰaʔ.t͡sæ] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-Western)
[ɣesˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tæ] - [pʰrəˈʂu] (Proto-Eastern)

[ɣesˈtʰrak] - [ˈspʰriʔ] - [ˈʈʰaʔ.tæ] - [pʰr̩ˈʂu] (Proto-World)
sangi39 wrote:
11 May 2020 20:13
For Word 1, /gʲa-/ is incorrect, as is the final consonant, but your thought about /t(ʰ)/ > /ts(ʰ)/ is correct for the Western languages
Word 2 is spot on.
Word 3 is close (just the final vowel is off), and you're right about the /ʈ(ʰ)/ > /t(ʰ)/ change in the Western languages as well.
Word 4 is almost right. As you're expecting, the /-or-/ is off. This syllable was particularly subject to change in the daughter languages, because of its relative "weakness".
I suppose I'm tentatively assuming that the first word didn't change in Proto-Eastern.

Relative "weakness", hmm? I suppose I'm assuming the first word didn't change in Proto-Western, then, although I could have gone with [-rə-] or [-ər-] instead of [-r̩-].
 

Post Reply