A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]
AB [xae̯ˈlæɟi] - [ˈuɸɟe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ɟe]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
The diphthong on word four is correct now, but the incorrect consonants (the k's here) are still incorrect. Your previous guess was closer.
So neither [c] nor [k], but [c] was closer. Since both of this consonant's apparent reflexes are voiceless, I don't know how I feel about [ɟ], but that's what I'll go with for now.
C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the vowel quality is only very slightly off (hint: look at D and think of GA English)
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm not sure about [x] for Word 1 or [aː] for Word 3, but I suppose we'll see.
X is correct! A disproportionate amount of fortification happened in this language family, so as you try to solve other problems, this might be useful to keep in mind. I'm sure you'll get the vowel of word 3 correct on your next guess.
Ah, thanks, I'll do my best to remember! I also appreciate the hint you've given about Word 3's vowel.
E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]
EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
Maybe I'm misreading what you've written, but based on your comments regarding Word 1 specifically and [tθ] in general, it sounds like Words 1 and 2 originally had the same consonant. I'm not confident about [t] for Words 1 and 2 and [k] for Word 4. Maybe they should be aspirated instead? Or perhaps I'm completely off-track.
You had the right idea here!
Oh, great! Thanks for your feedback!
G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]
GH [kaːˈr̥i] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈr̥əi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the second consonant is incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the first consonant is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
Hmm, so the second consonant in Word 1 isn't [r] or [θ], and the first consonant in Word 3 isn't [r] or [s
]. The only thing I can think of right now is to try [r̥] for both.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
So, it seems like the initial [e-] in my first reconstruction of Word 3 and the initial [j-] in my first reconstruction of Word 4 are incorrect, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment, so I've left them alone for now.
I think it's funny that you've said that, because both of those segments are alternative reconstructions. I marked them as correct, but you can try some other things if you want.
Oh, I must have misread or misinterpreted some of your comments last time, then! I think I'll just leave them as they are for now, but I may revisit them later on if doing so seems like it might be beneficial.
I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]
IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: one extra consonant, two others are off
Word 2: one extra consonant, one other is off
Word 3: one extra segment
Word 4: one extra segment, one of the other segments should be where the extra one is
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
There were a few possibilities I was considering for the vowels in Words 2 and 3, but I guess this is what I've settled on for now.
Word 3 could use some tweaking, but good choices otherwise.
For Word 3, I feel like I should get rid of either [-i] or [-i̯-]. I'll try [-i̯-] this round.
For Word 4, I don't know how I feel about what I've done, but hopefully I've interpreted your comments correctly.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm almost entirely certain that I haven't reconstructed the original forms "responsible" for the I [ʃɸ] : J s : K [ʃn], I [ʋ] : J [tw] : K [ŋ], and I [ʋ] : J [dw] : K [ɲ] correspondences correctly.
You've certainly come a lot closer than I expected. The phonation on the vowels became glottalization, which created the nasals through rhinoglottophilia. I'm impressed that you figured that out. However, there's one other unconventional sound change at work (attested, don't worry) which accounts for all the extra segments you reconstructed. Good luck.
Well, thank you! I'm always a fan of rhinoglottophilia.
I'm now getting the feeling that the [t] and [d] in Words 1 and 2 in J may be innovations. Actually, looking at your comments on IJKLM below, that seems to be the case.
Based on what you've said about two other consonants being off in Word 1 and one other consonant being off in Word 2, I'm thinking that [w] may not be exactly what I'm looking for. But is what I'm actually looking for a single consonant that appears three times, or are there 2-3 different consonants that I've failed to differentiate and incorrectly lumped together as [w]? Hmm… Based on I, I might just try [ʋ] for now.
L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: the stressed vowel is off
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm going with [e] for Word 2, at least for now, although there were a few other vowels I almost tried instead.
This vowel has two correct features (out of the three: roundness, fronting, height).
Ah, thank you! Let's try [ø].
N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]
NO [iqˈqodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɬˈɬeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the stressed vowel and the two consonants preceding it are incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the consonants are incorrect
Word 4: the stressed vowel is incorrect
You mentioned below that the final vowel in Word 3 was lost in N because the preceding consonant was voiceless, and although you didn't necessarily mean that the consonant in question was voiceless in NO, I'm going to try [ɬ], since [l] and [ɮ] were incorrect.
You also mentioned below that, for Word 1, the voiceless uvular affricate was closer to the original form than the fricative, so I might just try [q] for now, although I don't currently have an explanation in mind for why it developed differently in Words 1 and 2 if it's actually correct.
I'm feeling a bit stumped by N [NC] : O [CC] in Words 1 and 3. The nasals being present in NO and then fully assimilating to following consonants in O felt like it made the most sense to me, but after my last two attempts, I'm no longer so sure about that. [CC] > [NC] doesn't quite feel right, especially if C is voiceless, but that's what I'll go with for now.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm sure that whatever's going on with the final vowels will be painfully clear in hindsight, but at least for the time being, it remains a mystery to me. We've got N [ə] : O [a] in Words 1 and 2, N [Ø] : O [a] in Word 3, and N [ɯ] : O [a] in Word 4. I'm going to reconstruct a final [ə] for all four words and see how that goes.
The later two correspondences you've mentioned here were both conditioned by the surrounding consonants, and the loss of central vowels afterward resulted in the first correspondence. Schwa was the correct proto-form, so I suppose I can tell you what happened. In word 4 in N, the schwa was pulled toward the velum by the preceding velar. In word 3 in N, the presence of a voiceless consonant caused the schwa to be deleted. After that, central vowels were lost in O, moving the schwa to [a] (hint: this happened to another central vowel).
Oh, interesting! Thank you!
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
For Word 1, do I understand correctly that there are two incorrect segments, one of which is the final vowel, and, in addition to those two, [qχ] is also incorrect?
I'm sorry I should've been more clear. I wanted to avoid confusion over the number because I never know whether to note an affricate as one segment or two. There were three incorrect segments then, the first two consonants and the final vowel. That said, I'm not sure why you changed the stressed vowel, it was correct in your previous reconstruction. Also, [qx] was closer to the original form than [x].
Ah, understood. As for why I changed the stressed vowel, I knew that the second consonant and the final vowel were off, but I wasn't sure what the remaining incorrect segment was, and so I seem to have chosen the wrong one.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
Huh? Oh no, the way I see it, you've confirmed that I was right to be uncertain about all that!
I think I read that you were "at least certain of the final vowels" rather than "least certain...." Whoops.
Oh, no worries of course!
P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkodðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the latter two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the initial consonant is incorrect (may be difficult to reconstruct)
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm replacing [θ] with [ð] for now because I can't think of anything else, but I don't believe that's correct.
It's not, but this change in Q is exceedingly difficult now that I look at it. It was attested in a single language in the Index Diachronica, so I put it in with a subsequent change as well. I'd lean more on more foreign cognates than on Q when reconstructing it. If you don't get it next time, I'll just tell you.
I think I'm just going to try [ʔ] because of NO.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
For Word 2, I'm assuming for now that Q [ɟɟ] is related to P [d], but I'm afraid I have no clue what's going on with the two instances of [cc] in Q.
All these correspondences ([ɟɟ]:[d], [cc]:[θ], [cc]:[Ø]) are a result of the same two sound changes (the third one also had a third sound change).
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
Since you mentioned that one of the vowels in Word 4 should be long, I initially thought that the geminate palatal stops in Q might have arisen due to something like [VːC] > [VCC]. However, especially since you mentioned POA, I'm now wondering if the diphthongs in P were present originally in PQ and caused the palatalization of following consonants.
All of this is correct. [V:C] became [VCC], but only after the change where the diphthongs palatalized the following consonants. So together, Q went through 1) palatalization 2) diphthong smoothing 3) gemination/long vowel loss.
Oh, interesting!
For the third consonant in Word 1, I guess I'll try [k] because of Word 4.
As for the fourth consonant behind P [θ] : Q [j], though, it's been confirmed that it's neither [θ] nor [ð], but I'm kind of at a loss for what it could actually be. Other instances of [j] in Q correspond to either [j] or [ʒ] in P, and there are no other instances of [θ] in P. Voiceless consonants like [s
], [ç], and [k] seem to be lost between vowels in P, so I'm going to assume that this one was originally voiced. If that's correct, though, I'm not sure why it ended up being devoiced. Whatever this consonant is, it seems to correspond to [d] in NO, but [d] is preserved in Word 2 in P. I don't think it's correct, but I'm going to put [dð] for this round because I can't think of anything else.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
Ah, sorry, I should have included more of an explanation right from the start. For brevity's sake, I won't try to cover all of the details here, just what's most relevant. At some point in the history of Faroese, most of the long vowels that the language had inherited from Old Norse became diphthongs. Later on, the high off-glides of many such diphthongs underwent fortition when not followed by consonants, resulting in /Vi Vu/ > /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/. The Faroese reflexes of Old Norse ey "island" and róa "to row" are thus oyggj and rógva, respectively. This fortition process is known as "skerping" or "Verschärfung" or "sharpening". However, confusingly, these terms can also refer to the vowel changes that subsequently took place in /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/ sequences, yielding rógva /ˈɹɛkva/ with a front unrounded vowel in the stressed syllable, for instance.
That's fascinating, especially considering that I did a similar change (the environment and the affected sounds are a bit different) in another language of this family. Good luck finding it.
Haha, thank you!
R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]
RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the geminate and the affricate are incorrect
Word 2: Correct! (technically the whole diphthong is round, but that's getting quite nitpicky)
Word 3: Correct! (the l shouldn't be dark though)
Word 4: the affricate is incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm not sure about the changes I've made to the vowels.
Good choices.
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
Oh, thank you! Hopefully I've interpreted this correctly, though!
I'm so sorry about my comments. I think I had it in my head that when I said POA, that dental and alveolar would be viewed as one unit. The affricate you've reconstructed here as [dð] should be [dz]. My comments were absolutely terrible, sorry for the confusion.
Oh, no worries, thank you for clarifying!
In light of this, I'll similarly adjust the geminate in Word 1 to [zz]. I think that's what I had originally, and I don't believe you explicitly identified it as incorrect last time, but since I mentioned the R [ddʒ] : S [z] : T [zz] correspondence alongside the correspondences between the various reflexes of [dz], it looks like I may have misinterpreted your response about taking the MOA from S and the POA from R as applying to R [ddʒ] : S [z] : T [zz] as well.
U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the last consonant is off
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the last consonant is off (same as word 1)
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
Thanks for your help! Now, I realize that what you said wasn't "the tonal system of UV is identical to that of V", but I suppose that's what I'm assuming, for this round at least.
That's what I should've said. They are identical. Man, I'm having a lot of clarity issues this time around.
Oh, no problem! I'm glad to know I assumed correctly.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
Hopefully I've interpreted your comment about CV vs. VC correctly. As for the difficult sequences in Words 1 and 4, I'm not entirely sure why, but I'll try [ʃt] for now.
You have! And [ʃt] is so close, only off in the second segment.
Hmm… maybe [ts], then?
W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]
WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
All correct! Great job!
Thank you!
Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]
YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the first two vowels are off (see comments)
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: the l should have a different "-ization", not velarization/pharyngealization, and that first vowel is off.
Word 4: there should be an extra feature on k, think about what conditioned changes in the daughters
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the changes I've made to the vowels. Regarding the lateral in Word 3, I suppose I was assuming that its environment was enough to condition the shift to [w].
The incorrect vowels should all be the same (and the first of word 1 should be long as well). Hopefully my comments above on the lateral's secondary articulation are enough to get it right. It's pretty darn simple.
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm definitely not sure about the labialized consonant in Word 2. I assume it's voiced and retroflex, so perhaps just [ɖʷ]?
Good choice!
Ah, you know, if [lʷ] ends up being correct for Word 3, it's going to feel like a super-obvious solution in hindsight, particularly in light of [ɖʷ], but I guess I'm just so used to [ɫ] > [w].
As for the vowels, hopefully [ɐ] is at least closer, if not the actual solution!
AB [xae̯ˈlæɟi] - [ˈuɸɟe] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ɟe]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟæːm] - [ˈeːdze]
ABCD [xaːˈɺæɟi] - [ˈpɸurɟe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːɟe]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: not sure why you changed the initial. Also, the other two consonants are incorrect
Word 2: the initial consonant and the last consonant are incorrect
Word 3: Correct! (once again, not being too picky with diphthongs: [æy̯] is correct)
Word 4: the final vowel is correct
Not too far off anywhere
Ah, well, I had [k-] in Word 1 as part of my first attempt at reconstructing ABCD, so I must have neglected to change that when I submitted my second guess, even though my reconstructions of AB and CD both had [x-].
So the initial consonant of Word 2 is neither [p] nor [ɸ], the second consonant of Word 1 is neither [l] nor [r], and the nucleus of the stressed syllable of Word 4 is neither [ei̯] nor [eː]. Hmm…
EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
GH [kaːˈr̥i] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈr̥əi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjyːm] - [jiˈke]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: missing a segment
Word 3: the first consonant and the diphthong are incorrect
Word 4: missing a segment
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm not sure what to do about "lots of problems", so I'm not sure if I'm any closer this time around.
You are much closer this time, just a couple tweaks needed.
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I definitely don't think that the [r] in Word 2 and the initial vowel in Word 3 are correct, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment.
You're in luck, because both of those are correct!
Wow, that definitely was lucky!
I'm really not sure what's going on with the first consonant or the nucleus of the stressed syllable in Word 3. Regardless of whether or not [r̥] is correct in Word 1 in GH, I definitely don't think it's correct in Word 3. I'm not even sure whether EF [j] and [u
] correspond to GH [C] and [əi̯], respectively, or if it's more like EF [Ø] : GH [C] and EF [ju] : GH [əi̯].
IJK [ʃʋɑ̰ːˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzeʎi] - [ˈə̰ːq]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈløwi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈɫɑtˤ] - [ˈɫɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the vowels are off in quality, the first and last consonants are missing something, and the other consonant is incorrect
Word 2: two incorrect segments, one extra segment, and one segment is missing something
Word 3: the initial consonant is off
Word 4: the vowel is off in quality and the consonants are incorrect
I think I'm least certain about Word 2, but I'll try this for now.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
The apparent correspondences between laterals and coronal stops are confusing me the most, I think.
Those IJK coronal stops that match the LM laterals in words 1 and 2 shouldn't be there. See above for my comments on the unusual sound change that gave rise to them.
Ah, got it! Well, hopefully, at least.
NO [iqˈqodə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [iɬˈɬeɬə] - [ˈʔɨgə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkodðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
NOPQ [tsæːˈqχotə] - [ˈqæːdlə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: one extra segment, the final vowel and the consonants are incorrect, one too many syllables
Word 2: the initial consonant is off (very close though)
Word 3: I don't want to cause confusion with my comments, so I'll be clear. It should be two syllables and start with an affricate. The stressed vowel and everything after it is correct
Word 4: the initial consonant is incorrect. If you don't get it next time, I'll give it away
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
Judging by your comments on Word 3, I get the feeling I have no idea what's going on with these final vowels. I also have no idea which segment in Word 3 could be the extra one.
Well you got most of them right (hint: they're all the same). And I've made it pretty this time here what's extra.
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
There's a lot that I'm not happy with here, but I'm just going to leave it for now. I know you brought up several inaccuracies which I haven't addressed, but in those cases, I'm currently out of ideas for what else I could try.
I tried looking through the Index Diachronica, but I suppose I'm not close enough yet to even know where the right place to look would be.
You were pretty close with all your guesses (word 1 is still kinda far off, but you got most of the vowels), so whatever you did try was smart. It might be tough to find that change without knowing the proto-form or being all that certain of some of the lower-level groupings' proto-forms.
Thank you for all of your feedback! I definitely feel like I'm getting closer for Words 2-4, although Word 1 is still giving me quite a bit of trouble, which, again, is likely thanks to lower-level reconstructions being off. Regarding the final syllable of Word 1, I think the final vowel was just something I overlooked and neglected to change last time, and I'm tentatively reconstructing the consonant as [t] based on the fact that [k] > [g] seems to have taken place intervocalically in Word 4 in NO.
RST [ʔɑ́ːzzèi̯dzí] - [pǿy̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯lý] - [qèi̯dzé]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃtsi] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃtse]
RSTUV [ʔɑɣzzài̯tsi] - [póːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [rrìːtse]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: one extra segment, one missing segment, and the final consonant is incorrect
Word 2: the initial consonant is off, and the nucleus should be a long vowel
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: one vowel is off in terms of length, the final consonant is incorrect, and the initial is incorrect (hint: it should be a geminate)
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm not sure what's going on with the nucleus of the first syllable of Word 2. I'll try [oy̯] for now, but I'm not sure if I believe it myself.
It's not too far off.
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm also not sure about Word 4 in general. It seems like there should be a diphthong, but if two of the three monophthongs from my last reconstruction were correct, I suppose that can't be the case. I don't think I've addressed everything you mentioned, but this may be the best I can do at the moment.
I hope my comments above will clear your uncertainties.
So, the nucleus of the first syllable of Word 2 should be a long vowel, but is it [oː] or [øː] or even something else? I'll try [oː] this round.
As for the initial geminate of Word 4, I'm admittedly having a hard time imagining either [qq] > [zz] or [zz] > [q], so I figure there's some kind of sound change I'm unfamiliar with that's taking place here. I'll try [qq] for now. Well, actually, given what you've said below about [z], I might just try [rr] instead, assuming something like [r(r)] > [ʀ~ʁ] > [q] in RST.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'll readily admit that tone is a weak point for me when it comes to this sort of thing - there are a few basic changes I'm comfortable and familiar with, but beyond those…
I've based the tones here off of those in my current reconstructions of RST and UV. I can't be sure if any of what I have is correct, but hopefully I've gotten at least somewhat closer.
I'm totally in the same boat as you. Your tonal guesses here were all correct. I pretty much only worried myself with tonogenesis and some very macro changes, such as shifts in the entire paradigm. Like you, I'm not very adept at these types of changes, so you were right to think simple.
Something I feel is worth saying: I ended up with a lot of [z]s in the daughter languages of this family. A major proportion of those are due to the reverse of a common process in Indo-European languages, one that I found was equally common the other way crosslinguistically.
Ah, glad to know I'm not alone!
Oh, hmm… What comes to mind immediately for me is [z] > [r], with [r] > [z] being the reverse, so to speak. Whether or not that's exactly correct here, I'll try to keep what you've said in mind. To clarify, though, are you referring to the daughter languages of RSTUV specifically, or the entirely family as a whole?
WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂɐːrɐ̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jɐlʷú] - [ʀìːkʲə]
WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the first two vowels are off (should be the same as YZ when you get them correct)
Word 2: the second consonant is incorrect
Word 3: the first vowel is off (once again, same as the correct YZ vowel)
Word 4: Correct!
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I'm not sure how I feel about the vowels in Words 1 and 3, or the consonants in Word 2.
Those incorrect vowels are the same as each other, the same as YZ, and the same as a daughter lang of YZ.
In word two, you're right about the medial consonant being retroflex and a stop, but the other two features of it are incorrect (voicing and secondary articulation).
Ah, thanks for your feedback!
Actually, what you've said about the incorrect vowels being the same as in one of the daughter languages of YZ is throwing me off. Y has [aː], [à], and [a], while Z has [aɐ̯], [ə̀], and [ə]. In my original reconstruction of WXYZ, these vowels were the same as in Y, but that was incorrect. Similarly, in my second reconstruction of WXYZ, these vowels were the same as in Z, but that was incorrect as well. Am I missing or overlooking something? I'm going to leave them as they are for now.
ABCD [xaːˈɺæɟi] - [ˈpɸurɟe] - [ˈjæy̯m] - [ˈiːɟe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtrwe] - [iˈjyːm] - [jiˈke]
A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈtwurxe] - [ˈjælym] - [ˈjiːke]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the first syllable is correct, the final vowel is correct, and another consonant is partially correct
Word 2: the final vowel is correct (there should be a vowel in here, lean more towards ABCD for your reconstruction of the word)
Word 3: only m is correct. When ABCD became monosyllabic in this word, it wasn't the initial syllable that fell off, but the initial consonant of the final syllable that elided away and left a diphthong in its place
Word 4: there should be an initial consonant
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
OK, something has definitely gone wrong here. I don't really expect much, if any, of this to be right.
Don't beat yourself up. You did very well on words 1 and 4.
Yeah, I think Words 2 and 3 are definitely going to be giving me the most trouble.
Ah, in Word 3, I'd been thinking that A-H had a long vowel which diphthongized in ABCD, but that doesn't sound like it's the case.
IJKLM [ʃˤɑːˈɫɑtˤ] - [ˈɫɒu̯dˤ] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯːq]
NOPQ [tsæːˈqχotə] - [ˈqæːdlə] - [ˈdɮeɬə] - [ˈʔɨːkə]
I-Q [sˤæːˈlɑtˤə] - [ˈlæu̯dˤe] - [ˈdɮeɬi] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: one extra syllable (including two extra segments), two incorrect consonants and one in the wrong place, all the vowels are incorrect
Word 2: one correct segment, but it's in the wrong place
Word 3: the final vowel is correct, hopefully cleaning up NOPQ will aid with the rest of this word
Word 4: the initial is incorrect, and the other consonant is missing something
I'm not sure about a whole lot of things here, but the non-final vowels in Words 1 and 2 are tripping me up in particular, I feel, along with the consonants I've reconstructed as laterals in those same words.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
My thoughts on A-H apply here as well. I never expected [Cˠ] or [Cˤ] to be the correct explanation for these apparent coronal-dorsal correspondences (I'm sure the actual explanation is that I've screwed up my lower-level reconstructions), but now that I've noticed that IJKLM has a coronal where NOPQ has a uvular in Words 1 and 2, but IJKLM has a uvular where NOPQ has a coronal in Word 4, I'm more certain than ever that I've completely gone off the rails. I don't have a very good reason for the initial consonant of Word 4.
The actual explanation is that you've screwed up your lower-level reconstructions. Hopefully I can provide some insight. I don't want to give too much away, but [Cˤ] is a fantastic idea. It doesn't apply to the correspondences you placed it in here, but it appears four times in I-Q. The [Cˤ] idea is something you should always have in the back of your mind in this language family, as it's somewhat of a theme, the idea I had that birthed this challenge. Hopefully I haven't said too much or too little.
As for the coronal-uvular correspondences, I can tell you that word 1 has a coronal in IJKLM and a uvular in NOPQ, but not the ones you reconstructed. Word 2 is the same. Word 4 has no such correspondence. As a matter of fact, both reflexes of the word 4 initial have the same POA, and it is not uvular or coronal.
That's what I figured, but it's always nice to have confirmation. Oh, I actually already had pharyngealized consonants for IJKLM before reading this! Hopefully I'm on the right track here, but I'm not entirely sure that the four pharyngealized consonants I've reconstructed are all correct. I'll try to keep what you've said in mind.
So there is a uvular in Word 1 in NOPQ, but not [q]? Hm… I guess I'll have to go back and change that, but to what I'm not sure.
Hopefully I've guessed the MOA of Word 4's initial consonant correctly, but if not, I can always try the other option next time.
RSTUV [ʔɑɣzzài̯tsi] - [póːlɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [rrìːtse]
WXYZ [ʂɐːzɐ̀tə] - [ʙóʈə] - [jɐlú] - [ʀìːkə]
R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [póʈɤ] - [ɟalý] - [rrìːke]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the first two vowels are off in terms of quality
Word 2: only the final vowel is correct
Word 3: the second consonant is correct (lean more on RSTUV here)
Word 4: the vowels are correct (lean more on WXYZ here)
So, you've said that WXYZ should be more helpful for reconstructing the consonants in Word 4, but I feel better about [rr] > [ʀ] than [ʀ] > [rr]. Maybe I'll have to change it next time, but that's what I'm going with now.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I suppose I'm falling back on [tˠ] here as well. Again, I'm sure these kinds of correspondences are because I've messed up at a number of points leading up to this. Hopefully things will become a bit more clear in the next round.
Your analysis here is correct, that your reconstructions of lower forms are once again creating much more difficulty than there should be. Something that may help the whole affair is to think about Spanish. Latin 'multus' > 'muito' > 'mucho'. Those latter two forms, and the sound change associated with them, may help.
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I don't know how confident I feel about assuming [æ] > [ai̯] : [ə] either.
Be more confident! The ash here is only very slightly off from the real form.
Oh, I think I see what you mean about "mucho". Hopefully I'm on the right track. As for the vowel, perhaps just [a]? Hmm…
A-H [xaːˈrati] - [ˈtwurxe] - [ˈjælym] - [ˈjiːke]
I-Q [sˤæːˈlɑtˤə] - [ˈlæu̯dˤe] - [ˈdɮeɬi] - [ˈhɨːkˤə]
R-Z [ʂɑːzzàti] - [póʈɤ] - [ɟalý] - [rrìːke]
A-Z [ʃaːrˈrɑti] - [ˈtworte] - [ˈɟalym] - [ˈhriːke]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
Word 1: the first and last vowels are correct, as is the last consonant. A segment is missing
Word 2: the diphthong should be a short monophthong and the final vowel is correct
Word 3: two correct segments, but only one is in the right place. The stress is also supposed to be on the first syllable, and there are one too many segments
Word 4: the vowels are correct, and the last consonant is correct as well. One extra segment and one missing segment
Based on what you said above about some change involving [z], I might try [rr] for Word 1.
The consonants in Word 2 are giving me the most trouble out of everything here, probably.
I don't know if I've correctly understood your comments about Word 4.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑13 Jan 2021 18:37
shimobaatar wrote: ↑11 Jan 2021 03:00
I originally wasn't even planning to attempt to reconstruct the original forms this round, but I figured that I might as well.
I'd been neglecting to really compare different branches before now, so I was surprised to see some apparent similarities between my reconstructions of A-H, I-Q, and R-Z, although whether or not those similarities are meaningful or correct remains to be seen.
I seem to have done the worst with Words 2 and 3. My guesses for the original forms here make no sense in the context of the forms I've reconstructed for A-H, I-Q, and R-Z. Words 1 and 4 aren't that much better off, probably.
I'm glad you reconstructed this. You're surprisingly close! You're right that words 2 and 3 are the furthest off, but that is mostly because your reconstructions of them in lower levels were also not that great. If I can direct you, the bad reconstructions that are throwing you the furthest off are A-H words 2 and 3. For word three's structure (I'll comment on 2's structure another time), look at R-Z. Every segment in R-Z has an exact correspondence in A-Z, but it lost one (which one is not that difficult to figure out).
Hopefully all this will inform your next guess, and hopefully it won't take me so long to respond next time.
I'm glad I did as well, actually. It certainly didn't hurt.
I may have relied too heavily on R-Z for Word 3.
No worries about taking your time to respond, of course!