Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Here's my response to Shimobaatar. No worries about taking your time. I was actually relieved you took so long because it gave me a chance to focus on finals and life without this hanging over my head for a bit.
And as for the difficulty, as I look over things, I do see how the forms got more divergent than is normally expected from this game. The next one I do will be easier for sure, and I expect to give away several answers when the players get stuck, so don't fret.
Oh, well then, I'm glad that worked out!
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
I thought you did very well on this, and your reconstructions alerted me to a lot of alternatives. I can't wait to see your next attempt, and your ideas at the higher levels. Great job specifically on the groupings! You got all of them right except for the ones you deemed "isolates."
Well, thank you! I did better than I thought I would, at least. Hopefully I can gradually improve in the coming rounds.
A [haə̯ˈlætʃɨ] - [ˈuɸtʃə] - [ˈɥøy̯m] - [ˈei̯tʃə]
B [xae̯ˈdeci] - [ˈuːce] - [ˈɟø̃ỹ̯] - [ˈɪi̯ce]
AB [xae̯ˈlæki] - [ˈuɸke] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ke]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: only the third consonant is incorrect
Word 2: only the second consonant is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: the diphthong and the consonant are incorrect
All your incorrect segments are only slightly off, so don't diverge too much in your next guess.
Hmm… perhaps [k], then?
C [kɑːˈrɐʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːre]
D [ɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpudre] - [ˈdeə̯m] - [ˈeːdze]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːdze]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: the initial consonant is off
Word 2: all the segments are correct, but some are in the incorrect order
Word 3: the nucleus is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
I'm not sure about [x] for Word 1 or [aː] for Word 3, but I suppose we'll see.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
The initial consonant in word 1 is the same in CD as in the larger group which CD came from (I call it by the letters, but to avoid giving too much away, I'll say Proto-West).
Hmm, I'll try to keep this in mind for later.
E [anˈtθʲi] - [ˈtθʁa] - [iˈjumʲi] - [iˈkxa]
F [arˈtsiː] - [ˈtχaː] - [iˈjuːmi] - [iˈtsaː]
EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: Essentially correct! Though technically the two affricates came from different rules, compare with word two if you care to search for the real form.
Word 2: the initial (assuming you mean it as an affricate) is incorrect.
Word 3: Correct!
Word 3: the consonant(s) is/are incorrect
shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2021 22:23
I'm not positive at all about [tθ] anywhere, but we'll see how this goes.
It's not correct anywhere, but two of the places you've reconstructed it have the same proto-form, while the third comes from a different source.
Regarding Word 2, if you meant for [tθ] to represent an affricate in E, then that's what I intended it to represent in my first reconstruction of EF as well.
Maybe I'm misreading what you've written, but based on your comments regarding Word 1 specifically and [tθ] in general, it sounds like Words 1 and 2 originally had the same consonant. I'm not confident about [t] for Words 1 and 2 and [k] for Word 4. Maybe they should be aspirated instead? Or perhaps I'm completely off-track.
G [kaˈri] - [ˈtwe] - [ɪˈroi̯m] - [jɪˈɣe]
H [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwɛj] - [eˈhəi̯m] - [dʒiˈhɛj]
GH [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈsəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: one consonant is incorrect
Word 2: one incorrect segment and one extra segment
Word 3: only m is correct, but everything else is very close
Word 4: only the unstressed vowel is correct, and there's an extra segment
So, it seems like the initial [e-] in my first reconstruction of Word 3 and the initial [j-] in my first reconstruction of Word 4 are incorrect, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment, so I've left them alone for now.
I [ʃɸɑ̰ˈʋɑ̰t] - [ˈʋɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎ] - [ˈjə̰ʔ]
J [sɑ̀ːtwɑ̀] - [dwɑ̀u̯] - [zéʎí] - [qə̀ː]
K [ʃnɑːˈŋɑθ] - [ˈɲɒːθ] - [ˈdʑei̯] - [ˈŋəːx]
IJK [ʃwɑ̰ːˈtwɑ̰t] - [ˈdwɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎi] - [ˈqə̰ːk]
There were a few possibilities I was considering for the vowels in Words 2 and 3, but I guess this is what I've settled on for now.
I'm almost entirely certain that I haven't reconstructed the original forms "responsible" for the I [ʃɸ] : J [s
] : K [ʃn], I [ʋ] : J [tw] : K [ŋ], and I [ʋ] : J [dw] : K [ɲ] correspondences correctly.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
They are not "isolates" (I ended up with so many source languages in part because I wanted to avoid having isolates at any level), and I understand your frustration. You're most certainly overthinking this though. The answer is right under your nose, and it's way simpler than it seems.
Ah damn, I should have gone with my initial "instinct", I guess. I think I deleted my earlier attempts at reconstructing IJK, so I'll have to start over.
L [o̰ːˈla] - [ˈɬøw] - [ˈtæl] - [ˈɯ̤ː]
M [ħoˈle] - [ˈlɪwi] - [ˈnæli] - [ˈhɰɯ]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈlewi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: missing a segment
Word 2: the stressed vowel is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
I'm going with [e] for Word 2, at least for now, although there were a few other vowels I almost tried instead.
N [aɴˈqχɔdə] - [ˈqadɮə] - [inˈɮɛɬ] - [ˈŋɘgɯ]
O [iχˈχoda] - [ˈqædza] - [ilˈlela] - [ˈʔiga]
NO [iɴˈχɔdə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [inˈlelə] - [ˈʔigə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: two incorrect segments, and the qx is off
Word 2: the final vowel is off
Word 3: three incorrect segments
Word 4: the stressed vowel is off, but this is the only word where you've correctly reconstructed the final vowel. Weird, since the same process affected every word...
I'm sure that whatever's going on with the final vowels will be painfully clear in hindsight, but at least for the time being, it remains a mystery to me. We've got N [ə] : O [a] in Words 1 and 2, N [Ø] : O [a] in Word 3, and N [ɯ] : O [a] in Word 4. I'm going to reconstruct a final [ə] for all four words and see how that goes.
For Word 1, do I understand correctly that there are two incorrect segments, one of which is the final vowel, and, in addition to those two, [qχ] is also incorrect?
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2021 22:23
I'm least certain about the final vowels of all four words, as well as the stressed vowels of Words 3 and 4.
Oh dear, sorry I had to burst your bubble.
Huh? Oh no, the way I see it, you've confirmed that I was right to be uncertain about all that!
P [tʃə̯æi̯ˈjoθə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [əˈʒeːə̯] - [ˈɨːə̯]
Q [θəseˈccoj] - [ˈjeɟɟəj] - [dəˈjeçə] - [ˈθɨcc]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkoðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈðɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: the pretonic vowel is missing something, and the three final consonants are incorrect (one is extra)
Word 2: the geminate is off in the same way as in word 1, and the stressed vowel is off in the same way as in word 1
Word 3: Essentially correct!
Word 4: the vowels are correct (though one is off in length)
I'm replacing [θ] with [ð] for now because I can't think of anything else, but I don't believe that's correct.
For Word 2, I'm assuming for now that Q [ɟɟ] is related to P [d], but I'm afraid I have no clue what's going on with the two instances of [cc] in Q.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2021 22:23
I feel like I have a very poor grasp of what's going on here. I suspect there's more going on with the final vowels, but I'm not sure what. The correspondences involving the palatal stops in Q are particularly baffling. My original assumption was that they were original to PQ, but for whatever reason, I can't shake the feeling that something akin to the so-called "Faroese Verschärfung" may have taken place in Q instead. Alternatively, the solution may be something that hasn't even occurred to me!
The final vowels are just as you reconstructed, Q lost them and then employed a few repair strategies. The palatal stops in Q can be explained by something that I feel should be called (but really isn't quite) metathesis causing their gemination, and their POAs are off for much less complex reasons. I'll explain more if you're still having trouble next round. I did a quick search for "Faroese Verschärfung" and nothing came up (literally just some pictures of buildings, no links). Would you mind sending me some way to look at that so I can let you know if I inadvertently employed it.
Since you mentioned that one of the vowels in Word 4 should be long, I initially thought that the geminate palatal stops in Q might have arisen due to something like [VːC] > [VCC]. However, especially since you mentioned POA, I'm now wondering if the diphthongs in P were present originally in PQ and caused the palatalization of following consonants.
Ah, sorry, I should have included more of an explanation right from the start. For brevity's sake, I won't try to cover
all of the details here, just what's most relevant. At some point in the history of Faroese, most of the long vowels that the language had inherited from Old Norse became diphthongs. Later on, the high off-glides of many such diphthongs underwent fortition when not followed by consonants, resulting in /Vi Vu/ > /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/. The Faroese reflexes of Old Norse
ey "island" and
róa "to row" are thus
oyggj and
rógva, respectively. This fortition process is known as "skerping" or "Verschärfung" or "sharpening". However, confusingly, these terms can also refer to the vowel changes that subsequently took place in /Vt͡ʃː Vkv/ sequences, yielding
rógva /ˈɹɛkva/ with a front unrounded vowel in the stressed syllable, for instance.
R [ʔɑ́ːddʒèːð] - [ɸǿːl] - [ʒèːl] - [χèːð]
S [áːzèi̯dʒí] - [bói̯ɫɯ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [ɢèi̯dzí]
T [ʔǽɪ̯zzèdʑí] - [pǿʎɤ̀] - [ʒèʎý] - [qèdʑé]
RST [ʔɑ́ːʒʒèi̯dðí] - [pǿi̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dðé]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: the first vowel is incorrect and the final affricate is incorrect
Word 2: the nucleus of the first syllable is incorrect
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
I'm not sure about the changes I've made to the vowels.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2021 22:23
The correspondences between R [ddʒ] : S [z] : T [zz] in Word 1, R [ð] : S [dʒ] : T [dʑ] also in Word 1, and R [ð] : S [dz] : T [dʑ] are currently giving me the most trouble. I'm also rather uncertain about the voicing of the initial consonants of Words 2 and 4.
In those correspondences, S will always give you the MOA and R the POA. Good job figuring out the voicing issue correctly.
Oh, thank you! Hopefully I've interpreted this correctly, though!
U [ɑ̀ɣzə̀zâʃsì] - [wówlè] - [ʒàʒlý] - [zə̀zîʃsè]
V [ɑːrràttʃi] - [ówle] - [daʒlú] - [ərrìttʃe]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃti] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃte]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: all the vowels are correct, but none of them have the proper tone. One CV should be VC, and you're final consonant cluster is incorrect
Word 2: the final vowel has incorrect tone, otherwise correct
Word 3: the initial consonant and final vowel are incorrect, and the first vowel has incorrect tone
Word 4: identical comments as word 1
shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2021 22:23
The sequences that are giving me the most trouble at the moment here are [âʃs] in Word 1 and [îʃs] in Word 4 in U vs. [àttʃ] in Word 1 and [ìttʃ] in Word 4 in V.
Both of these sequences simplified using assimilation, but in different ways.
Also, the tonal system of UV is much more akin to V than U, so that may help with your tonal problems.
Thanks for your help! Now, I realize that what you said wasn't "the tonal system of UV is
identical to that of V", but I suppose that's what I'm assuming, for this round at least.
Hopefully I've interpreted your comment about CV vs. VC correctly. As for the difficult sequences in Words 1 and 4, I'm not entirely sure why, but I'll try [ʃt] for now.
W [hæːˈzɑh] - [ˈhoh] - [ˈjeɫv̩] - [ˈçiːh]
X [hæːˈzɑːðə] - [ˈhoːʐə] - [ˈeːjɫu] - [ˈhiːɣə]
WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: Correct!
Word 2: Correct!
Word 3: Correct!
Word 4: Correct!
Great job!
Oh wow, thank you! I honestly didn't expect to get any forms entirely correct, let alone all four for any given branch.
Y [ʂaːràtə] - [ʙóɻʷə] - [jawú] - [ʀìːcə]
Z [ʐaɐ̯rə̀də] - [ʙóɖɵ] - [jəlú] - [ʀèi̯gɨ]
YZ [ʂaɐ̯rə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəɫú] - [ʀìːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: the first two vowels are off
Word 2: the consonant is off (its suprasegmental is correct though)
Word 3: the first vowel is off, and the l is missing something (which explains one of its reflexes)
Word 4: the second consonant is off
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the changes I've made to the vowels. Regarding the lateral in Word 3, I suppose I was assuming that its environment was enough to condition the shift to [w].
I'm definitely not sure about the labialized consonant in Word 2. I assume it's voiced and retroflex, so perhaps just [ɖʷ]?
AB [xae̯ˈlæki] - [ˈuɸke] - [ˈjøy̯m] - [ˈɪi̯ke]
CD [xɑːˈrædʒi] - [ˈpurdze] - [ˈɟaːm] - [ˈeːdze]
ABCD [kaːˈlæki] - [ˈɸurke] - [ˈjay̯m] - [ˈei̯ke]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: two consonants are off
Word 2: two consonants are off
Word 3: the vowel is off (the nonsyllabic portion is correct)
Word 4: the first vowel and consonant are off
shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2021 22:23
I'm really not sure what's going on in Word 2.
I will say that, at least for the initial, the opposite development happened in AB versus CD.
Let's see how this goes, although I'm not particularly optimistic.
EF [arˈti] - [ˈtʁa] - [iˈjumi] - [iˈka]
GH [kaːˈθi] - [ˈtwe] - [eˈsəi̯m] - [jiˈxe]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtre] - [iˈsoi̯m] - [iˈke]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: the initial consonant is off
Word 2: only t is correct, the word should only have three segments (aside from stress)
Word 3: only m is correct, lots of problems here
Word 4: only i is correct, one extra segment (same one as in 2)
I'm not sure what to do about "lots of problems", so I'm not sure if I'm any closer this time around.
I definitely don't think that the [r] in Word 2 and the initial vowel in Word 3 are correct, but I'm not sure what else to guess at the moment.
IJK [ʃwɑ̰ːˈtwɑ̰t] - [ˈdwɒ̰u̯d] - [ˈdzei̯ʎi] - [ˈqə̰ːk]
LM [ħoːˈla] - [ˈlewi] - [ˈdæli] - [ˈhɯː]
IJKLM [ʃoːˈtot] - [ˈdøwde] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈqəːk]
The apparent correspondences between laterals and coronal stops are confusing me the most, I think.
NO [iɴˈχɔdə] - [ˈqædɮə] - [inˈlelə] - [ˈʔigə]
PQ [tʃəsæi̯ˈkoðə] - [ˈjæi̯dəʒə] - [dəˈʒeçə] - [ˈðɨːkə]
NOPQ [tisæːˈqoða] - [ˈɢæːdlə] - [diˈleɬə] - [ˈðɨːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: the last two vowels are correct, and one other is only off in terms of length. Figuring out the structure of this word at this stage may prove difficult
Word 2: one vowel is off in terms of length, one consonant is partially correct, and all other segments are incorrect. You reconstructed an extra syllable
Word 3: the final vowel is off (the development with the final vowels is a bit uncommon) and there's an extra segment
Word 4: one vowel is off in terms of length, and the initial consonant is incorrect (may be difficult to reconstruct, but the sound change is attested on the Index Diachronica, so it's unusual but plausible)
Judging by your comments on Word 3, I get the feeling I have no idea what's going on with these final vowels. I also have no idea which segment in Word 3 could be the extra one.
There's a lot that I'm not happy with here, but I'm just going to leave it for now. I know you brought up several inaccuracies which I haven't addressed, but in those cases, I'm currently out of ideas for what else I could try.
I tried looking through the Index Diachronica, but I suppose I'm not close enough yet to even know where the right place to look would be.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2021 22:23
If NOPQ is a valid grouping, my reconstructions of NO and PQ surely must be off quite a bit. I'm really not sure what's going on here at this point.
This is a valid grouping, and something that might be helpful is that NO and PQ have much simpler syllable structures than NOPQ, and a lot of their differences are due to the differences in repair strategies they chose (most noticeable in word 1).
I'll try to keep this in mind for the future.
RST [ʔɑ́ːʒʒèi̯dðí] - [pǿi̯ɫɤ̀] - [ʒèi̯ɫý] - [qèi̯dðé]
UV [ɑɣəzzàʃti] - [wówle] - [dʒaʒlý] - [əzzìʃte]
RSTUV [ɑːɣzzài̯ti] - [ɸóy̯lɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [qzìte]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: three extra segments, one vowel is off in terms of length, and another ought to be a diphthong. One incorrect consonant as well
Word 2: two correct segments
Word 3: three incorrect segments
Word 4: two correct vowels, the other is extra. One extra consonant, and only one consonant is correct
I'm not sure what's going on with the nucleus of the first syllable of Word 2. I'll try [oy̯] for now, but I'm not sure if I believe it myself.
I'm also not sure about Word 4 in general. It seems like there should be a diphthong, but if two of the three monophthongs from my last reconstruction were correct, I suppose that can't be the case. I don't think I've addressed everything you mentioned, but this may be the best I can do at the moment.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Before I begin, I feel obligated to mention that you need to go over the tonal systems of the daughters a bit more, as it's not just a simple LH tonal system. I won't comment on the tones below, but much of what you have is incorrect.
I'll readily admit that tone is a weak point for me when it comes to this sort of thing - there are a few basic changes I'm comfortable and familiar with, but beyond those…
I've based the tones here off of those in my current reconstructions of RST and UV. I can't be sure if any of what I have is correct, but hopefully I've gotten at least somewhat closer.
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Jan 2021 22:23
Not to imply that I'm confident about any other part of this, but I'm positive that there's something I must be missing/getting wrong with regards to [q] : [z] in Word 4.
You are missing something. You are very right that it is a direct correspondence, but you ought to realize that the correspondence would be more accurately described as [q] : [zz]. Perhaps that will aid your reconstruction of UV, and I'll say more next time if necessary.
Hmm…
WX [hæːˈzɑθə] - [ˈhoʂə] - [ˈjeɫu] - [ˈhiːxə]
YZ [ʂaɐ̯rə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəɫú] - [ʀìːkə]
WXYZ [ʂaɐ̯zə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəlú] - [ʀìːkə]
Ratsawn wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021 20:18
Word 1: two vowels are incorrect
Word 2: one consonant is incorrect
Word 3: the first vowel is incorrect
Word 4: Correct!
I'm not sure how I feel about the vowels in Words 1 and 3, or the consonants in Word 2.
ABCD [kaːˈlæki] - [ˈɸurke] - [ˈjay̯m] - [ˈei̯ke]
EFGH [xarˈti] - [ˈtre] - [iˈsoi̯m] - [iˈke]
A-H [xaːˈlætˠi] - [ˈθr̩xe] - [iˈsoy̯m] - [ˈiːke]
OK, something has definitely gone wrong here. I don't really expect much, if any, of this to be right.
IJKLM [ʃoːˈtot] - [ˈdøwde] - [ˈdzæli] - [ˈqəːk]
NOPQ [tisæːˈqoða] - [ˈɢæːdlə] - [diˈleɬə] - [ˈðɨːkə]
I-Q [tisaːˈtˤoða] - [ˈdˤœːlde] - [diˈlæɬi] - [ˈrɨːkə]
My thoughts on A-H apply here as well. I never expected [Cˠ] or [Cˤ] to be the correct explanation for these apparent coronal-dorsal correspondences (I'm sure the actual explanation is that I've screwed up my lower-level reconstructions), but now that I've noticed that IJKLM has a coronal where NOPQ has a uvular in Words 1 and 2, but IJKLM has a uvular where NOPQ has a coronal in Word 4, I'm more certain than ever that I've completely gone off the rails. I don't have a very good reason for the initial consonant of Word 4.
RSTUV [ɑːɣzzài̯ti] - [ɸóy̯lɤ] - [dʒai̯lý] - [qzìte]
WXYZ [ʂaɐ̯zə̀tə] - [ʙóɖʷə] - [jəlú] - [ʀìːkə]
R-Z [ʂaːzzæ̀ti] - [ɸóy̯ɭɤ] - [jælú] - [qrìːtˠe]
I suppose I'm falling back on [tˠ] here as well. Again, I'm sure these kinds of correspondences are because I've messed up at a number of points leading up to this. Hopefully things will become a bit more clear in the next round.
I don't know how confident I feel about assuming [æ] > [ai̯] : [ə] either.
A-H [xaːˈlætˠi] - [ˈθr̩xe] - [iˈsoy̯m] - [ˈiːke]
I-Q [tisaːˈtˤoða] - [ˈdˤœːlde] - [diˈlæɬi] - [ˈrɨːkə]
R-Z [ʂaːzzæ̀ti] - [ɸóy̯ɭɤ] - [jælú] - [qrìːtˠe]
A-Z [ʂaːˈðæti] - [ˈθʷoy̯lle] - [jiˈɬælm] - [ˈqriːke]
I originally wasn't even planning to attempt to reconstruct the original forms this round, but I figured that I might as well.
I'd been neglecting to really compare different branches before now, so I was surprised to see some apparent similarities between my reconstructions of A-H, I-Q, and R-Z, although whether or not those similarities are meaningful or correct remains to be seen.
I seem to have done the worst with Words 2 and 3. My guesses for the original forms here make no sense in the context of the forms I've reconstructed for A-H, I-Q, and R-Z. Words 1 and 4 aren't
that much better off, probably.