Jäzik Panúski

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Zekoslav
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Zekoslav »

It might be the best to move this conversation to a different thread since it's gone off-topic. However, this paper which argues that Mongolian vowel systems with front-back vowel harmony developed from systems with attracted-retracted vowel harmony through a vowel shift /u/, /ʊ/ > /y/, /u/ might be of interest to you.
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Ælfwine
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Ælfwine »

I am thinking of rebooting Jäzik Panúski.

Right now, I am rethinking the origin of front rounded vowels in the language. Currently, they originate from a forward chain shift of vowels. Though it works for /u/ > /y/, the origin of /ø/ is a bit more tricky to introduce. I've considered introducing it first from the strong yers, which I thought was a bit overkill, and then from a general fronting of /o/ => /ø/, although I didn't like that solution either.

So what if instead vowels were allophonically fronted before palatalized consonants, which became phonemic after the consonants were depalatalized, which is usual for Southwest Slavic?

I also imagine a sort of vowel harmony might arise. If one vowel is fronted before a palatal consonant, it would in turn palatalize the preceding consonant, and therefore front any back vowel before it again. In effect, this gives Pannonian a sort of vowel harmony (no doubt influenced by Hungarian!)

So the word lösös (from PS *lososь) "fish" would have a plural lösösi, but a theoretical dual lososa.

Thoughts? Or is this a bad idea and I should stop forcing front rounded vowels into the language based on areal contact. (Also: the new name would be Jäzik Pänűski and might be overkill once again.)
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Nortaneous
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Nortaneous »

There are Slavic languages that developed front rounded vowels. They can be reconstructed as intermediates in at least Czech and Ukrainian, and are preserved in some present-day Slovenian dialects.

Some sound changes that led to the development of front rounded vowels in various Slovenian dialects:
- e > ø adjacent to labials
- e > ø / _l, j_
- e i > ø / _{r m}
- accented u > y
- "elsewhere as the result of simplification of diphthongs, dissimilation, or assimilation within a syllable (Ramovš 1995)"
- "through labialization of i"
Zythros Jubi
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Zythros Jubi »

Many Rusyn dialects still have front rounded vowels.
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Ælfwine
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Ælfwine »

Nortaneous wrote: 31 Jan 2020 19:39 There are Slavic languages that developed front rounded vowels. They can be reconstructed as intermediates in at least Czech and Ukrainian, and are preserved in some present-day Slovenian dialects.

Some sound changes that led to the development of front rounded vowels in various Slovenian dialects:
- e > ø adjacent to labials
- e > ø / _l, j_
- e i > ø / _{r m}
- accented u > y
- "elsewhere as the result of simplification of diphthongs, dissimilation, or assimilation within a syllable (Ramovš 1995)"
- "through labialization of i"
I was aware of the a > o > u > y chain shift in dialects like Prekmurje and Kajkavian, but not of the other ways.
Zythros Jubi wrote: 01 Feb 2020 07:25 Many Rusyn dialects still have front rounded vowels.
Interesting. Do we know at all how they got them?
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Zythros Jubi
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Zythros Jubi »

I've read some Rusyn grammar books, among which the Ivan Harajda's grammar (published in 1941 at then Hungary-occupied Ungvar/Uzhhorod in a Rusyn variant) stated that some dialect have a /ø~y/ corresponding to standard Ukrainian /i/ and Russian /o/, coming from Proto-Slavic *o plus a consonant + a yer.
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dva_arla
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by dva_arla »

You folks might find this article particularly interesting:

http://www.proto-slavic.ru/_pdf/veng-pr ... -1988).pdf

Basically a reconstruction of the Slavic languages spoken in Pannonia during the arrival of the Magyars, done by analysing Slavic loanwords in Hungarian.
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Zythros Jubi
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Zythros Jubi »

Slavic loanwords in Hungarian have multiple strata, including South, East and West origins (by wiktionary category); though I've not seen a word of definitely East Slavic origin (e.g. judging from liquid sequences of ToroT/TereT/ToloT). Romanian seems to contain both South and East Slavic loanwords. In my conlang Carpathian Bulgar I mostly use Old Church Slavonic and Old East Slavic for reference of loanword origin.
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yangfiretiger121
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

dva_arla wrote: 09 Feb 2020 06:35 You folks might find this article particularly interesting:

http://www.proto-slavic.ru/_pdf/veng-pr ... -1988).pdf

Basically a reconstruction of the Slavic languages spoken in Pannonia during the arrival of the Magyars, done by analysing Slavic loanwords in Hungarian.
If only there were a translation of that for those of us who can't read Russian/Cyrillic.
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dva_arla
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by dva_arla »

yangfiretiger121 wrote: 10 Feb 2020 00:18
If only there were a translation of that for those of us who can't read Russian/Cyrillic.
There's always Google Translate when you need her...
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?? - Japonic language in the Mekong Delta
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Ælfwine »

Zythros Jubi wrote: 01 Feb 2020 18:02 I've read some Rusyn grammar books, among which the Ivan Harajda's grammar (published in 1941 at then Hungary-occupied Ungvar/Uzhhorod in a Rusyn variant) stated that some dialect have a /ø~y/ corresponding to standard Ukrainian /i/ and Russian /o/, coming from Proto-Slavic *o plus a consonant + a yer.
Okay — so basically like umlaut.
dva_arla wrote: 09 Feb 2020 06:35 You folks might find this article particularly interesting:

http://www.proto-slavic.ru/_pdf/veng-pr ... -1988).pdf

Basically a reconstruction of the Slavic languages spoken in Pannonia during the arrival of the Magyars, done by analysing Slavic loanwords in Hungarian.
Interesting source you found. I have my own source, which only confidentially states that the reflex of PS *ǫ was u. Mind telling us what the conclusions are?
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dva_arla
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by dva_arla »

Ælfwine wrote: 10 Feb 2020 09:21
Interesting source you found. I have my own source, which only confidentially states that the reflex of PS *ǫ was u. Mind telling us what the conclusions are?
The article I cited also aims at that conclusion, if by u you are referring to the long one (ū).
Conlangs in progress:
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Modern Gandhari
?? - Japonic language in the Mekong Delta
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Re: Jäzik Panúski

Post by Ælfwine »

dva_arla wrote: 10 Feb 2020 11:09
Ælfwine wrote: 10 Feb 2020 09:21
Interesting source you found. I have my own source, which only confidentially states that the reflex of PS *ǫ was u. Mind telling us what the conclusions are?
The article I cited also aims at that conclusion, if by u you are referring to the long one (ū).
No, I mean the conclusions of the overall paper.

Yes, I meant ū.
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