Jäzik Panúski
Re: Jäzik Panúski
It might be the best to move this conversation to a different thread since it's gone off-topic. However, this paper which argues that Mongolian vowel systems with front-back vowel harmony developed from systems with attracted-retracted vowel harmony through a vowel shift /u/, /ʊ/ > /y/, /u/ might be of interest to you.
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A linguistics enthusiast who occasionally frequents the CBB.
- Guide to Slavic accentuation
[:D], [;)], [:D], [:|], [:(], [:'(]
A linguistics enthusiast who occasionally frequents the CBB.
- Guide to Slavic accentuation
Re: Jäzik Panúski
I am thinking of rebooting Jäzik Panúski.
Right now, I am rethinking the origin of front rounded vowels in the language. Currently, they originate from a forward chain shift of vowels. Though it works for /u/ > /y/, the origin of /ø/ is a bit more tricky to introduce. I've considered introducing it first from the strong yers, which I thought was a bit overkill, and then from a general fronting of /o/ => /ø/, although I didn't like that solution either.
So what if instead vowels were allophonically fronted before palatalized consonants, which became phonemic after the consonants were depalatalized, which is usual for Southwest Slavic?
I also imagine a sort of vowel harmony might arise. If one vowel is fronted before a palatal consonant, it would in turn palatalize the preceding consonant, and therefore front any back vowel before it again. In effect, this gives Pannonian a sort of vowel harmony (no doubt influenced by Hungarian!)
So the word lösös (from PS *lososь) "fish" would have a plural lösösi, but a theoretical dual lososa.
Thoughts? Or is this a bad idea and I should stop forcing front rounded vowels into the language based on areal contact. (Also: the new name would be Jäzik Pänűski and might be overkill once again.)
Right now, I am rethinking the origin of front rounded vowels in the language. Currently, they originate from a forward chain shift of vowels. Though it works for /u/ > /y/, the origin of /ø/ is a bit more tricky to introduce. I've considered introducing it first from the strong yers, which I thought was a bit overkill, and then from a general fronting of /o/ => /ø/, although I didn't like that solution either.
So what if instead vowels were allophonically fronted before palatalized consonants, which became phonemic after the consonants were depalatalized, which is usual for Southwest Slavic?
I also imagine a sort of vowel harmony might arise. If one vowel is fronted before a palatal consonant, it would in turn palatalize the preceding consonant, and therefore front any back vowel before it again. In effect, this gives Pannonian a sort of vowel harmony (no doubt influenced by Hungarian!)
So the word lösös (from PS *lososь) "fish" would have a plural lösösi, but a theoretical dual lososa.
Thoughts? Or is this a bad idea and I should stop forcing front rounded vowels into the language based on areal contact. (Also: the new name would be Jäzik Pänűski and might be overkill once again.)
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- greek
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Re: Jäzik Panúski
There are Slavic languages that developed front rounded vowels. They can be reconstructed as intermediates in at least Czech and Ukrainian, and are preserved in some present-day Slovenian dialects.
Some sound changes that led to the development of front rounded vowels in various Slovenian dialects:
- e > ø adjacent to labials
- e > ø / _l, j_
- e i > ø / _{r m}
- accented u > y
- "elsewhere as the result of simplification of diphthongs, dissimilation, or assimilation within a syllable (Ramovš 1995)"
- "through labialization of i"
Some sound changes that led to the development of front rounded vowels in various Slovenian dialects:
- e > ø adjacent to labials
- e > ø / _l, j_
- e i > ø / _{r m}
- accented u > y
- "elsewhere as the result of simplification of diphthongs, dissimilation, or assimilation within a syllable (Ramovš 1995)"
- "through labialization of i"
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- sinic
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Re: Jäzik Panúski
Many Rusyn dialects still have front rounded vowels.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic
Re: Jäzik Panúski
I was aware of the a > o > u > y chain shift in dialects like Prekmurje and Kajkavian, but not of the other ways.Nortaneous wrote: ↑31 Jan 2020 19:39 There are Slavic languages that developed front rounded vowels. They can be reconstructed as intermediates in at least Czech and Ukrainian, and are preserved in some present-day Slovenian dialects.
Some sound changes that led to the development of front rounded vowels in various Slovenian dialects:
- e > ø adjacent to labials
- e > ø / _l, j_
- e i > ø / _{r m}
- accented u > y
- "elsewhere as the result of simplification of diphthongs, dissimilation, or assimilation within a syllable (Ramovš 1995)"
- "through labialization of i"
Interesting. Do we know at all how they got them?
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- sinic
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Re: Jäzik Panúski
I've read some Rusyn grammar books, among which the Ivan Harajda's grammar (published in 1941 at then Hungary-occupied Ungvar/Uzhhorod in a Rusyn variant) stated that some dialect have a /ø~y/ corresponding to standard Ukrainian /i/ and Russian /o/, coming from Proto-Slavic *o plus a consonant + a yer.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic
Re: Jäzik Panúski
You folks might find this article particularly interesting:
http://www.proto-slavic.ru/_pdf/veng-pr ... -1988).pdf
Basically a reconstruction of the Slavic languages spoken in Pannonia during the arrival of the Magyars, done by analysing Slavic loanwords in Hungarian.
http://www.proto-slavic.ru/_pdf/veng-pr ... -1988).pdf
Basically a reconstruction of the Slavic languages spoken in Pannonia during the arrival of the Magyars, done by analysing Slavic loanwords in Hungarian.
Conlangs in progress:
Modern Khotanese
Modern Gandhari
?? - Japonic language in the Mekong Delta
Locna - Indo-European language in N. Syria
Wexford Norse
A British romlang, &c.
Modern Khotanese
Modern Gandhari
?? - Japonic language in the Mekong Delta
Locna - Indo-European language in N. Syria
Wexford Norse
A British romlang, &c.
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- sinic
- Posts: 417
- Joined: 24 Nov 2014 17:31
Re: Jäzik Panúski
Slavic loanwords in Hungarian have multiple strata, including South, East and West origins (by wiktionary category); though I've not seen a word of definitely East Slavic origin (e.g. judging from liquid sequences of ToroT/TereT/ToloT). Romanian seems to contain both South and East Slavic loanwords. In my conlang Carpathian Bulgar I mostly use Old Church Slavonic and Old East Slavic for reference of loanword origin.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic
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- sinic
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Re: Jäzik Panúski
If only there were a translation of that for those of us who can't read Russian/Cyrillic.dva_arla wrote: ↑09 Feb 2020 06:35 You folks might find this article particularly interesting:
http://www.proto-slavic.ru/_pdf/veng-pr ... -1988).pdf
Basically a reconstruction of the Slavic languages spoken in Pannonia during the arrival of the Magyars, done by analysing Slavic loanwords in Hungarian.
Alien conlangs (Font may be needed for Vai symbols)
Re: Jäzik Panúski
There's always Google Translate when you need her...yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑10 Feb 2020 00:18
If only there were a translation of that for those of us who can't read Russian/Cyrillic.
Conlangs in progress:
Modern Khotanese
Modern Gandhari
?? - Japonic language in the Mekong Delta
Locna - Indo-European language in N. Syria
Wexford Norse
A British romlang, &c.
Modern Khotanese
Modern Gandhari
?? - Japonic language in the Mekong Delta
Locna - Indo-European language in N. Syria
Wexford Norse
A British romlang, &c.
Re: Jäzik Panúski
Okay — so basically like umlaut.Zythros Jubi wrote: ↑01 Feb 2020 18:02 I've read some Rusyn grammar books, among which the Ivan Harajda's grammar (published in 1941 at then Hungary-occupied Ungvar/Uzhhorod in a Rusyn variant) stated that some dialect have a /ø~y/ corresponding to standard Ukrainian /i/ and Russian /o/, coming from Proto-Slavic *o plus a consonant + a yer.
Interesting source you found. I have my own source, which only confidentially states that the reflex of PS *ǫ was u. Mind telling us what the conclusions are?dva_arla wrote: ↑09 Feb 2020 06:35 You folks might find this article particularly interesting:
http://www.proto-slavic.ru/_pdf/veng-pr ... -1988).pdf
Basically a reconstruction of the Slavic languages spoken in Pannonia during the arrival of the Magyars, done by analysing Slavic loanwords in Hungarian.
Re: Jäzik Panúski
The article I cited also aims at that conclusion, if by u you are referring to the long one (ū).
Conlangs in progress:
Modern Khotanese
Modern Gandhari
?? - Japonic language in the Mekong Delta
Locna - Indo-European language in N. Syria
Wexford Norse
A British romlang, &c.
Modern Khotanese
Modern Gandhari
?? - Japonic language in the Mekong Delta
Locna - Indo-European language in N. Syria
Wexford Norse
A British romlang, &c.