Crona (redux)

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DV82LECM
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Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

You all, already, know what THIS is about. And I will leave my opinions to myself. :)

/m n p t k f s h ɾ (w j)*/ <m n p/b t/d c/g f/v s/z h r/l>
/i u e o a/ <i u e o a>

Allophony:
1. [p t k f s] become voiced intervocally and after nasals.
2. [ɾ] = [l] at the end of syllables.

Conscript:
m <ɔ> n <c>
p <ɒ> t <ɑ> k <o>
f <ɜ> s <ɛ> h <ɵ>
ɾ <ı>
i <v> u <ʌ>
e <w> o <ʍ>
a <x>
eu <n> oi <u>
au <m> ai <ɯ>
geminate <:> (BEFORE consonant)

Onset clusters:
/sm sp st sk/
/pɾ tɾ kɾ fɾ/

Intervocal clusters:
/mb nd ŋg ɱv nz/
/nsp nst nsk/
/mbɾ ndɾ ŋgɾ/
/lm lp lt lk lf ls/
/lsp lst lsk/
/sm sp st sk/
/spɾ stɾ skɾ/
/pn tm km kn fn/
/p: t: k: f: s: l:/
/pɾ tɾ kɾ fɾ/

One-syllable word coda:
/-m -n -p -t -k -f -s -x -l/
/-mp -nt -ŋk -ns -lp -lt -lk -ls -sp -st -sk/

Two-syllable word coda:
/-n -p -t -k -s -l/
/-nt -ns -lt -ls -st/

Three-syllable word coda:
/-n -t -s -l/

Diphthongs and Triphthongs:
/ai au oi eu/
<ai au oi eu>
*/ja jo ju wa we wi/
<ya yo yu wa we wi>
<ia io iu ua ue ui>
/jau wai/
<yau wai>
<iau uai>
Last edited by DV82LECM on 09 Apr 2019 05:51, edited 14 times in total.
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Reyzadren
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by Reyzadren »

+1 like to the onset clusters, word coda, diphthongs and triphthongs.

Most of these are also used in my conlang [:D]
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DV82LECM
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

Reyzadren wrote: 19 Mar 2019 00:31 +1 like to the onset clusters, word coda, diphthongs and triphthongs.

Most of these are also used in my conlang [:D]
Thank you. I must admit that this is becoming more complex than I first worked it. I wanted more diversity in my endings, but I might have gone too big. But, after WHAT you wrote, I have to use them! I'm just finding it tricky. I'm not a fan of all of the coda clusters, but I am. Make sense? I think a basic rule WILL BE that no one cluster can show up twice in a root or word, as well as CVC arrangements can't have the same consonant. No "pep" or "stast." Maybe you can help me, Reyzadren.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by Reyzadren »

Not sure what I could help you with tbh. My conlang has almost the same number/type of front and back clusters as yours, but it is not complex, linguistically. In fact, the clusters and diphthongs actually make the language easier for me. The guideline that I use is basically just "Can I pronounce it?"
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DV82LECM
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

Reyzadren wrote: 19 Mar 2019 23:28 Not sure what I could help you with tbh. My conlang has almost the same number/type of front and back clusters as yours, but it is not complex, linguistically. In fact, the clusters and diphthongs actually make the language easier for me. The guideline that I use is basically just "Can I pronounce it?"
Touché. I just have something vaguely German that I want to make seem vaguely Spanish. My dilemma is cognates. DOES "rupt" and "rupta" mean close to the SAME thing? If NOT, why? Get what I mean?
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by Reyzadren »

Hmm, I don't really do much on cognates/etymology for my conlang. The situation above does seem more about morphology to me though. If that is what you are asking, my conlang will always have such words to be related via affixations. Hence, in general, they are related: /'serp/ "killings", /'serpa/ "kill". The only exceptions that I can think of are embedded cores that very rarely occur.
Last edited by Reyzadren on 15 Aug 2020 10:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by sangi39 »

DV82LECM wrote: 19 Mar 2019 15:29
Reyzadren wrote: 19 Mar 2019 00:31 +1 like to the onset clusters, word coda, diphthongs and triphthongs.

Most of these are also used in my conlang [:D]
Thank you. I must admit that this is becoming more complex than I first worked it. I wanted more diversity in my endings, but I might have gone too big. But, after WHAT you wrote, I have to use them! I'm just finding it tricky. I'm not a fan of all of the coda clusters, but I am. Make sense? I think a basic rule WILL BE that no one cluster can show up twice in a root or word, as well as CVC arrangements can't have the same consonant. No "pep" or "stast." Maybe you can help me, Reyzadren.
One possible method would be to not allow them in roots, which doesn't seem too unlikely (given the size of your inventory and the clusters that are permitted, you're looking at, what, 8602 possible monosyllabic and 7457934 possible bisyllabic words right there, so not having all of those possible combinations being represented in roots makes perfect sense. This could be handwaved as some change that happened at some point in the language's history, or you could try to come up with sets of rules that prevent them from occurring (something like Grassman's Law, for example, could have /pep/ shift to /fep/ or /pef/, and dissimilation rules like nVn > nVr could help).

As for preventing repeated clusters in general, well some of those could be handled by the above dissimilation rules, or even by haplology. So, for example, if you have /stas-/ which then takes a suffix like /-tar/, the resulting /stastar/ could end up being /star/.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

sangi39 wrote: 21 Mar 2019 00:16
DV82LECM wrote: 19 Mar 2019 15:29
Reyzadren wrote: 19 Mar 2019 00:31 +1 like to the onset clusters, word coda, diphthongs and triphthongs.

Most of these are also used in my conlang [:D]
Thank you. I must admit that this is becoming more complex than I first worked it. I wanted more diversity in my endings, but I might have gone too big. But, after WHAT you wrote, I have to use them! I'm just finding it tricky. I'm not a fan of all of the coda clusters, but I am. Make sense? I think a basic rule WILL BE that no one cluster can show up twice in a root or word, as well as CVC arrangements can't have the same consonant. No "pep" or "stast." Maybe you can help me, Reyzadren.
One possible method would be to not allow them in roots, which doesn't seem too unlikely (given the size of your inventory and the clusters that are permitted, you're looking at, what, 8602 possible monosyllabic and 7457934 possible bisyllabic words right there, so not having all of those possible combinations being represented in roots makes perfect sense. This could be handwaved as some change that happened at some point in the language's history, or you could try to come up with sets of rules that prevent them from occurring (something like Grassman's Law, for example, could have /pep/ shift to /fep/ or /pef/, and dissimilation rules like nVn > nVr could help).

As for preventing repeated clusters in general, well some of those could be handled by the above dissimilation rules, or even by haplology. So, for example, if you have /stas-/ which then takes a suffix like /-tar/, the resulting /stastar/ could end up being /star/.
Whoa. Thanks SO MUCH for the LOGISTICS. That helps, a lot. I might wanna start thinking like a linguist on this project. [xP]
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

Little update.

I decided to give my four Diphthongs their own symbol. This is the full list:

m <ɔ> n <c> p <ɒ> t <ɑ> k <o> f <ɜ> s <ɛ> h <ɵ> ɾ <ı>
i <v> u <ʌ> e <w> o <ʍ> a <x>
eu <n> oi <u> au <m> ai <ɯ>
geminate <:> (BEFORE consonant)

If you study my symbols, you'll see that symmetry means a LOT to me. And...if anyone wants to be extra cool, look at my vowels and discern the pattern for WHY I chose those new shapes.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

I do want to post something new about this language: words for body parts. I've been considering something interesting: inalienable plurality. The root for the part of a body with symmetry will be, inherently, pluralized. As much, the genitive is unnecessary.

<euzi> "feet"
<yos euzi> "one feet (foot)"

Whatchall think? (STILL a work in progress.)
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

Plurality:

One-syllable words end in /m n p t k f s x l/. Each get /-t/.
/-m/ = /-mt/ = /-mp/, those ending in /-t/ get/-in/.

Two-syllable words end in /n p t k s l/;
rule for /-t/ applies.

Three-syllable words end in /n t s l/;
rule for /-t/ applies.

ALL phonemic clusters get /-it/;
rule for /-t/ applies.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

New phonology:
/m/ <ɔ> /n/ <c> /ŋ/ <ი>*
/p/ <ɒ> /t/ <ɑ> /k/ <o>
/h/ <ɜ> /ɬ/ <ɛ> /s/ <ɵ>
/w/ <r> /l/ <ɹ> /j/ <ı>

/i/ <v> /u/ <ʌ>
/e/ <w> /o/ <ʍ>
/a/ <x>

/oi/ <u> /eu/ <n>
/ai/ <ɯ> /au/ <m>

*exists, initially, in older dialect, but still used in a few clusters.
Last edited by DV82LECM on 04 Sep 2020 14:36, edited 22 times in total.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by WeepingElf »

I like the way you constructed a featural alphabet out of existing letters.
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DV82LECM
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

WeepingElf wrote: 13 Aug 2020 10:47 I like the way you constructed a featural alphabet out of existing letters.
It was, but not much so, now. I would have to derive some wicked sound changes to make it work.

I'm also flattered that you could recognize it is featural. Is it that obvious? Truth be told, it is (intended to be) a conceptual mirror to Korean, even down to the symmetry in the vowels.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

Intervocalic clusters:
/mn mp~ɱf mb/
<mn nh mp>
/nt~nθ nd~nd͡ʒ/
<nl nt>
/ŋm ŋn* ŋk~nt͡ʃ ŋg/
<nm nn ns nc>
/pn pt~pθ ps~pʃ/
<pn pl pt>
/t͡sm t͡sn t͡sp t͡sk/
<tm tn tp tc>
/km kn kp kt~kθ ks~kʃ/
<cm cn cp cl ct>
/fn ft~ft͡ʃ/
<hn ht>
/sm sn sp st~ʃt͡ʃ sk/
<sm sn sp st sc>
/lm ln lp lt~lt͡ʃ lk ls~lʃ lh~lf lw~lv lj~lʒ/
<lm ln lp lt lc ls lh lw ly>
/ɾm ɾn ɾp ɾt~ɾt͡ʃ ɾk ɾs~ɾʃ ɾh~ɾf ɾw~ɾv ɾj~ɾʒ/
<rm rn rp rt rc rs rh rw ry>

Diphthongs and Triphthongs:
/ai au oi eu/
/ʲa ʲo ʲu ʷa ʷe ʷi/
<ia io iu ua ue ui>
/ʲau ʷai/
<iau uai>

Word coda:
/n t~ʔ s l ɾ/

*rare; only in a few modern roots/words.
Last edited by DV82LECM on 15 Sep 2020 03:52, edited 73 times in total.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

Allophony:
/t/ > [tʃ], before /i e/.
/ɬ/ > [θ], before /i e/.
/l/ > [ð], before /i e/.
/s/ > [ʃ], before /i e/.
/j/ > [ʒ], before /i e/.
/h/ > [f], before /u o/.
/w/ > [v], before /u o/.
/ɬ/ > [l], at syllable coda.
/l/ > [ɾ], at syllable coda.
/h ɬ s/ > [p t k], after nasals.
/p t k/ > voiced, after nasals.

Phonetic rules:
similar onset and coda is forbidden.
/m n ŋ l ɾ/ ONLY preceded by /e o a/ at coda.
/ai oi au eu/ ONLY in open syllables.
words end with anything but /i u/.
Last edited by DV82LECM on 13 Sep 2020 10:45, edited 23 times in total.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by Iyionaku »

DV82LECM wrote: 01 Apr 2019 01:20 I do want to post something new about this language: words for body parts. I've been considering something interesting: inalienable plurality. The root for the part of a body with symmetry will be, inherently, pluralized. As much, the genitive is unnecessary.

<euzi> "feet"
<yos euzi> "one feet (foot)"

Whatchall think? (STILL a work in progress.)
FYI, what you call "inalienable plurality" is usually called plurale tantum. Obviously, you can use every description that you like [:)]

What would be the difference to a noun that doesn't have inalienable plurality? Is there a plural marker featured in euzi? In your last post, you featured some plural markers but none of them was -i or -zi.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by Salmoneus »

Although it's not entirely clear, I think DV8 may be referring to the opposite of a plurale tantum.

A plurale tantum is morphologically plural (has plural marking) but semantically singular.

But there can also be nouns that are morphologically singular (has no plural marking) but semantically plural: if it occurs without number marking, it is assumed to refer to more than one object. To refer to the singular, you need a numeral ("one"), a counter ("a head of") or a morphological "singulative" on the noun.

English doesn't really have any clearcut examples of this. But one possible example is the word "veg" - "pass the veg" looks like a singular, but refers to multiple vegetables, and you need to say "a piece of veg" or the like to indicate the singular (or sometimes "one veg", meaning "one portion of veg"?).

I don't know what these nouns are called, but some languages do have them. In English, anything that might be this sort of noun is generally lumped in with either mass nouns or collectives. But they're not collectives, because they refer to the items directly, not to the group; and they're not mass nouns because they don't refer to uncountable masses. [semantically, for example, five different vegetables on the plate can be 'the veg', despite quite clearly being almost a paradigm example of countable objects].


They're generally found with nouns that either form mass-like collectives (herds, forests, etc) or that form proper groups, so feet would be a very plausible example for some language.


[Especially because the dual gives an obvious place of origin: if a language has a morphological dual only for proper pairs - twins, feet, eyes, etc - and that dual is eroded, you'd end up with the default form looking like a singular yet by default referring to the pair]
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by DV82LECM »

Iyionaku wrote: 20 Aug 2020 15:50
DV82LECM wrote: 01 Apr 2019 01:20 I do want to post something new about this language: words for body parts. I've been considering something interesting: inalienable plurality. The root for the part of a body with symmetry will be, inherently, pluralized. As much, the genitive is unnecessary.

<euzi> "feet"
<yos euzi> "one feet (foot)"

Whatchall think? (STILL a work in progress.)
FYI, what you call "inalienable plurality" is usually called plurale tantum. Obviously, you can use every description that you like [:)]

What would be the difference to a noun that doesn't have inalienable plurality? Is there a plural marker featured in euzi? In your last post, you featured some plural markers but none of them was -i or -zi.
I'm STILL figuring stuff out. I get so stuck on phonetics with each of my projects. Eventually, I forget to MAKE proper grammars. However, to your question, <euse> (changed to match current phonetics) means "(all) feet." Any lowest part of an outer extremity. It is a collective noun.
Last edited by DV82LECM on 20 Aug 2020 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crona (redux)

Post by Creyeditor »

Salmoneus wrote: 20 Aug 2020 16:55 Although it's not entirely clear, I think DV8 may be referring to the opposite of a plurale tantum.

A plurale tantum is morphologically plural (has plural marking) but semantically singular.

But there can also be nouns that are morphologically singular (has no plural marking) but semantically plural: if it occurs without number marking, it is assumed to refer to more than one object. To refer to the singular, you need a numeral ("one"), a counter ("a head of") or a morphological "singulative" on the noun.

English doesn't really have any clearcut examples of this. But one possible example is the word "veg" - "pass the veg" looks like a singular, but refers to multiple vegetables, and you need to say "a piece of veg" or the like to indicate the singular (or sometimes "one veg", meaning "one portion of veg"?).

I don't know what these nouns are called, but some languages do have them. In English, anything that might be this sort of noun is generally lumped in with either mass nouns or collectives. But they're not collectives, because they refer to the items directly, not to the group; and they're not mass nouns because they don't refer to uncountable masses. [semantically, for example, five different vegetables on the plate can be 'the veg', despite quite clearly being almost a paradigm example of countable objects].


They're generally found with nouns that either form mass-like collectives (herds, forests, etc) or that form proper groups, so feet would be a very plausible example for some language.


[Especially because the dual gives an obvious place of origin: if a language has a morphological dual only for proper pairs - twins, feet, eyes, etc - and that dual is eroded, you'd end up with the default form looking like a singular yet by default referring to the pair]
I think singulative number might be the term you are looking for. The Wikipedia article is decent.
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