So Gothish speakers get to have as much fun as I do when I say, "I edited it". Like in that phrase, I'm guessing the tongue-twister-ishness is a quirk of the example verb.
Vowel gradation ftw!
So Gothish speakers get to have as much fun as I do when I say, "I edited it". Like in that phrase, I'm guessing the tongue-twister-ishness is a quirk of the example verb.
Vowel gradation ftw!
I am playing around with front rounded vowels still. I included them here because they nicely preserve the ablaut in the Class IIa verbs. However some dialects may have unrounded them, I think given the timespan of 1800 years and Crimea's rather rugged geography there would be quite a few Crimean Gothic dialects. I didn't think the changes were enough to warrant another thread.
Thanks for the compliment!Yeah, I mean that's what I would do in that situation. Although maybe just in the past tense? That seems more likely to get regularized.
I think this looks great. I especially like the leveling of the first person, present indicative to the vowel of the second and third persons. Gives the whole paradigm a nice singular/plural contrast taht could be retained even in more inflectional endings are lost.
You are right, it is quite a tongue twister, and I suspect schwa will be syncoped in casual speach, so that the form lisede becomes liste (and in fact this was raised by one scholar as a likely source for the Crimean Gothic word lista meaning "little," although in my mind a connection with English "least" or Gothic "leitils" is more likely.)Zekoslav wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019 17:43 Overall it looks nice, personally the <dede> sequence looks a bit repetitive, <budedeþ> in particular is quite a tongue twister!
Other than that, I got two questions:
1. Did you mean that the past participle got an extra -t on analogy with the present participle, and not the other way around (as you've written), since that's what your examples seem to show?
2. How did the 3. sg. ending get a different consonant from the 2. pl. ending?
I read somewhere that the Low German-like dialect and Crim Gothic where actually two independent languages, but other people in that area didn't really distinguish it (It's all Germanic to me ;) ). This needs the assumption that there was some Low German immigation into that area. But if so, people might be actually talking about two different languages and Crim Gothic might have been very different from Low German.Ælfwine wrote: ↑04 Jul 2019 05:01 I'm somewhat tempted to split this project into two: one thread for "Crimean Gothic," which is my reconstruction of the language of the same name, another one for "Gothish" which is less of a reconstruction and more of a real "conlang." I want to do something with all those Cj clusters dangnabbit.
Rant time:
I have also always found it odd that for a language with centuries of isolation, it is not quite different from Low German (and even in several reports has been described as being mutually intelligible with them). Even Vilamovian shows greater divergence and less mutual intelligibility. What gives? Perhaps Busbecq introduced too much Flemish and German vocab and distortions, or perhaps the mutual intelligibility with low german was exaggerated. Nonetheless I am slowly being convinced of the idea that Crim Goth was a west germanic dialect as opposed to an east germanic one.
The only word for twelve other than tinetue is "duzene," ['tu.zə.nə] which is a fairly ubiquitous loanword itself.Herra Ratatoskr wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019 05:27 Neat. Do the cognates of eleven and twelve still exist in any sense in the language, like if say twelve became "a dozen", or something like that? Maybe with some semantic drift over the centuries?
I'm going to fully admit that I don't know if this is realistic for Crimean Gothic, but a few things suggest it. First, is the confusion over vowels in unstressed syllables in the corpus with historical [a e i o u] = /ə/ usually writtten as <e> but sometimes other characters: for example, the stems in the verbs schlipen, breen, geen seem to have [e], possibly for /ə/, we also see [a] in mycha (c.f. BibGoth mekeis), [o] in ano (BG hana) etc.Zythros Jubi wrote: ↑11 Nov 2019 03:34 Why are there so many schwas, just like West Germanic languages and Danish, in such an isolated environment from other Germanic languages; is this realistic?
I haven't really worked on adjectives much. I don't think they would differ that much from what is typical of Germanic languages. Going from the Crimean Gothic body, there are a few ideas:Herra Ratatoskr wrote: ↑14 Nov 2019 21:00 On an unrelated note, do you have any work done on Goþesch adjectives?
Code: Select all
+-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+
| | Masculine | Feminine | Neuter |
| +-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+
| | S | P | S | P | S | P |
+-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+
| STRONG |
+-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+
| Nom | -s | | | | | |
+-----+-----+ -e | -e | -es | -te | -e |
| Obl | - | | | | | |
+-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+
| WEAK |
+-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+
| Nom | | | -e | | | |
+-----+ -e | -ens +-----+ -ens | -e | -ene |
| Obl | | | -en | | | |
+-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+
That's actually... pretty close to my previous sketch (albeit formatted nicer.)Herra Ratatoskr wrote: ↑16 Nov 2019 03:56 Cool. So, based on that and the nominal declensions, I'm guessing the endings would be something like this? (assuming the strong/weak distinction is retained)Code: Select all
+-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+ | | Masculine | Feminine | Neuter | | +-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+ | | S | P | S | P | S | P | +-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+ | STRONG | +-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+ | Nom | -s | | | | | | +-----+-----+ -e | -e | -es | -te | -e | | Obl | - | | | | | | +-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+ | WEAK | +-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+ | Nom | | | -e | | | | +-----+ -e | -ens +-----+ -ens | -e | -ene | | Obl | | | -en | | | | +-----+-----+------+-----+------+-----+------+
Neat. Is there a functional difference between the pronominal and null neuters, like one is attributive, the other predicative, or something like that? Also, do you have any Slavic influence on the usages of weak and strong adjectives (assuming the distinction did, in fact, stick around)? It looks like modern East Slavic languages only have relics of the Slavic indefinite/definite distinction, but Old Church Slavonic still made the distinction, so I'd imagine there could be an opportunity for influence.
You have to keep in mind that Slavic expansion into the Crimea is a relatively recent phenomena, for almost 1500 Crimean Gothic would be recieving purely Greek and Turkish influence (and as it seems Ossetian, Mongolian even...) So as I said before any Slavic influence into CrGo would be due to areal features spreading into it indirectly, or relatively recent influence (apparently many languages in Russia have a tendency to adopt palatal consonants and other features.)Herra Ratatoskr wrote: ↑16 Nov 2019 18:11Neat. Is there a functional difference between the pronominal and null neuters, like one is attributive, the other predicative, or something like that? Also, do you have any Slavic influence on the usages of weak and strong adjectives (assuming the distinction did, in fact, stick around)? It looks like modern East Slavic languages only have relics of the Slavic indefinite/definite distinction, but Old Church Slavonic still made the distinction, so I'd imagine there could be an opportunity for influence.