A riddle for you guys
- Creyeditor
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A riddle for you guys
I wanted to do this for years. Here is an alternative way of presenting my conlang. The idea is as follows: I post a few sentences with translation but without glosses, adapted from the Conlang Syntax Test Cases. Your job is to figure out how the grammar/morphosyntax works. You can post hypotheses on the grammar and/or glossing and I will comment on them, but more importantly, you can request more sentences to be translated (ideally one by one). This way you will learn more and more about the language. I will not answer any other specific questions. Remember that there is no wrong or right. Some descriptions might fit all existing data, but will they work with the new translations you request?
Hint: There is not a lot going on in the morphology, but the syntax might be more interesting. Maybe start with things like basic word order? Alignment? Glosses? ...
I hope you all enjoy the riddle and request some translations
Here are the first 9 sentences.
(1)
Sutu mim pakun.
`The sun shines'
(2)
Nama mim pakun kun sin mani.
`The sun is rising now.'
(3)
Kukam mim tupa su tinan na.
`All the people shouted.'
(4)
Tamu mu pupun pum sum sam sin ta kumu.
`The kitten jumped onto the table.'
(5)
Nipum mu pupun pum kun sin kumum.
`The kitten walked away.'
(6)
Nupan.
`It's raining.'
(7)
Pinu mu pupun pum kun tu nupan.
`The kitten is playing in the rain.'
(8)
Si kiku tun sin nipum.
`You should walk away. '
(9)
In nimu kun sin anin tun sin nipum.
`I will be happy to walk away.'
Hint: There is not a lot going on in the morphology, but the syntax might be more interesting. Maybe start with things like basic word order? Alignment? Glosses? ...
I hope you all enjoy the riddle and request some translations
Here are the first 9 sentences.
(1)
Sutu mim pakun.
`The sun shines'
(2)
Nama mim pakun kun sin mani.
`The sun is rising now.'
(3)
Kukam mim tupa su tinan na.
`All the people shouted.'
(4)
Tamu mu pupun pum sum sam sin ta kumu.
`The kitten jumped onto the table.'
(5)
Nipum mu pupun pum kun sin kumum.
`The kitten walked away.'
(6)
Nupan.
`It's raining.'
(7)
Pinu mu pupun pum kun tu nupan.
`The kitten is playing in the rain.'
(8)
Si kiku tun sin nipum.
`You should walk away. '
(9)
In nimu kun sin anin tun sin nipum.
`I will be happy to walk away.'
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Re: A riddle for you guys
What a cool idea! Here are my guesses:
It very much seems to be a generally VSO language. I think definite articles come before the nouns they modify, but adjectives come after. There seems to be some kind of gender agreement as well:
It very much seems to be a generally VSO language. I think definite articles come before the nouns they modify, but adjectives come after. There seems to be some kind of gender agreement as well:
Spoiler:
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Re: A riddle for you guys
Hey thank you
VSO very much fits the sentences 1-7. 8 and 9 are a bit different, right? You also got some case markers right, IMHO. I think you can improve on your translations for sin, kun, si and in. Is there any particular (set of) sentence(s) that you request to do so and/or test your other hypotheses?
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Re: A riddle for you guys
Here are some more sentences, this time involving sin, kun, si and in.
(10)
Isi mim ipinim su unanim na ta pisu kun tin sitin.
`A box of growing plants stands in the window.'
(11)
Unum mu sinana tum ata kun tu aka su nikimin na.
`A bird nest is built in the apple tree.'
(12)
Si upi mim sunam.
`You have come too soon.'
(13)
In nipam ta paka mim kipa.
`I usually sleep soundly.'
(10)
Isi mim ipinim su unanim na ta pisu kun tin sitin.
`A box of growing plants stands in the window.'
(11)
Unum mu sinana tum ata kun tu aka su nikimin na.
`A bird nest is built in the apple tree.'
(12)
Si upi mim sunam.
`You have come too soon.'
(13)
In nipam ta paka mim kipa.
`I usually sleep soundly.'
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"Thoughts are free."
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Re: A riddle for you guys
I've got some ideas for these new ones, but I'll leave them for other users
Re: A riddle for you guys
Is In some type of mood marker?
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
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Re: A riddle for you guys
This reminds me of linguistics olympiad problems. Can you translate “the sun is rising”?
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Re: A riddle for you guys
I think GrandPiano is closer here than Shemtov. I prepared two sentences with mood in it (14-15) and for GrandPiano I translated the progressive aspect.
(14)
Si nimu kun sin anin tun sin nipum.
`You will be happy to walk away.'
(15)
In kiku tun sin nipum.
`I must walk away.'
(16)
Minum ta sutu mim pakun.
`The sun is shining.'
(14)
Si nimu kun sin anin tun sin nipum.
`You will be happy to walk away.'
(15)
In kiku tun sin nipum.
`I must walk away.'
(16)
Minum ta sutu mim pakun.
`The sun is shining.'
Edit: Sorry, blanked on the translation of the last sentence. Corrected now.
Last edited by Creyeditor on 14 Apr 2019 22:21, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A riddle for you guys
I agree with Grandpiano's assessment, now that I've looked at the data a bit more. I'm leaning towards sin being an aspect marker, possibly some kind of perfect or perfective (?), but it may be a more complicated TA marker.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
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Re: A riddle for you guys
You translated "si kiku tun sin nipum" as "you should walk away" but "in kiku tun sin nipum" as "I must walk away". If I'm allowed to ask, does the use of "should" vs. "must" reflect a difference in meaning or mood, or is it just an arbitrary difference in translation?
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Re: A riddle for you guys
There is no difference between `should' and `must' in this language. I just felt that 'I must ...' and `you should' were more natural renderings of deontic necessity or obligation.GrandPiano wrote: ↑14 Apr 2019 15:45 You translated "si kiku tun sin nipum" as "you should walk away" but "in kiku tun sin nipum" as "I must walk away". If I'm allowed to ask, does the use of "should" vs. "must" reflect a difference in meaning or mood, or is it just an arbitrary difference in translation?
Here are some more sentences with sin.
(17)
Pinu mu pupun pum kun sin atisum.
`The kitten is playing in the kitchen.'
(18)
Nupan kun sin kupipin kun sin anin.
`It will rain in the desert.'
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Re: A riddle for you guys
I'm assuming we're allowed to work together on this, but I'll continue to put my thoughts in spoilers in case anyone wants to try and solve this on their own.
Here are my thoughts so far, after looking at All4En's ideas:
Here are my thoughts so far, after looking at All4En's ideas:
Spoiler:
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Re: A riddle for you guys
A lot of interesting things in GrandPiano's post. Keep in mind that you can also request translations of specific sentences. Another advise that might be helpful. Maybe you could describe the function of some marker as a disjunction (it is used either for X or for Y) and then later try to unify its uses.
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Re: A riddle for you guys
I wrote that post late at night and forgot to ask—could I see some more sentences with “ta”?
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Re: A riddle for you guys
Here are two sentences with ta.
In kiku in tin asu kun tin mapisu kun ta nupan.
`I must stay at home if it rains.'
Tumu ta pisam num tu minun ku tu isu pum.
`The father makes the knife for the little boy.'
I don't how much that helps. I guess asking for translations of specific sentences, might make sense if you have a hypothesis about the meaning/function of some word.
In kiku in tin asu kun tin mapisu kun ta nupan.
`I must stay at home if it rains.'
Tumu ta pisam num tu minun ku tu isu pum.
`The father makes the knife for the little boy.'
I don't how much that helps. I guess asking for translations of specific sentences, might make sense if you have a hypothesis about the meaning/function of some word.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
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