What did you accomplish today?

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Ahzoh
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh »

relative verbs do be interesting:
sāʾammēsu! "you, who must come!"
sāʾammēsutu! "you, who must not come!"
īyammēsu! "you, who must go!"
īyammēsutu! "you, who must not go!"

iyāya lagâm zūdnēse
"A fool's laugh that I heard"

It can be used in a vocative sense:
Rēbni sāʾammēsi.
[ˈrɛːb.ni sɒː.ʔɒmˈmɛː.si]
man-1s.POSS NFUT-come-DIR-2ms<REL>
"Come, my husband."

Pitini rūburam īyammēsutu liḫāra ku!
[ˈpi.ti.ni ˈruː.bu.rɒm iː.jɒmˈmɛː.su.tu liˈx̹ɒː.rɒ ˈk̹u]
daughter-1s.POSS planting-OBL.SG NFUT-go-DIR-2fs<REL>-NEG today-OBL.SG at
"My daughter, you must not go planting today!"
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Omzinesý »

kiwikami wrote: 01 Jun 2021 11:50
Omzinesý wrote: 31 May 2021 13:15
kiwikami wrote: 31 May 2021 07:43
Aìḳìlàt (kaha) ḷuá.
INV.die<A> (man.OBL) war.PAT
The war was died for (by men).
If the circumstantial construction derives from an inverse voice instead of a passive, should the agent still be an obligatory complement? Or do I misunderstand?
Mm, syntax definitely isn't my forte, so I may be using the wrong terminology here. There isn't an agent per say since 'die' only takes a patientive-marked argument (the alignment is split-S); the circumstantial switches this with the oblique in terms of what is marked how, and it doesn't reduce valency. (I used <A> and <A.B> in the glosses to mark the two person-agreeing arguments whose specific thematic roles vary depending on voice, but that may have just caused confusion.) Overt complements aren't mandatory in either case - both the patient and oblique are fully/completely indicated (underlyingly, at least) through marking on the verb: the patient with person agreement via that first ì [3SG], and the oblique via the benefactive, which is null-marked but whose presence in this case is required since the inverse cannot appear on an intransitive verb that does not have some oblique thing lingering in a corner somewhere, waiting to be called upon.

I did wonder if the oblique here might technically be an adjunct rather than an complement, since its existence may be specified but is only optionally overt... but then, the patientive-marked noun (and the agentive-marked one, in a verb that either is transitive or only takes an agent) is also optional:

Aìḳìlàt kaha.
INV.die<3SG> man.OBL
Something was died for by men/a man.

There's also a distinct syntactic difference between using an oblique noun after a verb with a certain marker (e.g. FUT) and using that marker's prepositional equivalent (the benefactive does have an overt one of these - it's xa); namely, the former allows the circumstantial voice, while the latter does not, despite both involving an oblique-marked noun directly after the verb. The latter is pretty clearly an adjunct situation, just a standard prepositional phrase, but in the former it does seem like the oblique is an actual argument/complement.

Ḳaılsìà ḷár kaúh.
die<3>.FUT war.OBL man.PAT
The man dies after the war.

Aìḳaılsìàt ḷár kaúh.
INV.die<3>.FUT war.OBL man.PAT
The man has the war dying after him.

Sì·Ḳaılà ḷár kaúh.
FUT die<3> war.OBL man.PAT
The man dies after the war.

*Sì·Aìḳaılàt ḷár kaúh.
FUT INV.die<3> war.OBL man.PAT
*The man has the war dying after him.

Not sure if that made any kind of sense - it has been literal years since I drew a proper syntax tree...
Yeah, I think the split alignment makes things hard to understand.

This is the basic intransitive clause where 'man' is the subject and 'war' is not an argument/complement?

Code: Select all

Ḳaılsìà ḷár kaúh.
die<3>.FUT war.OBL man.PAT
The man dies after the war.
In the inverse voice clause, 'war' becomes a subject and 'man' becomes an object, but because the subject reserves the PAT case, the object has to appear on the OBL case? And 'man' appears in parenthesis just because it can be cross-referenced, not because it were a oblique/adjunct?

Code: Select all

[b]Aìḳìlàt (kaha) ḷuá.[/b]
[size=85]INV.die<A> (man.OBL) war.PAT[/size]
The war was died for (by men).
I think syntax trees aren't very handy unless you want to describe word-order phenomena.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by kiwikami »

Omzinesý wrote: 04 Jun 2021 14:09Yeah, I think the split alignment makes things hard to understand.

This is the basic intransitive clause where 'man' is the subject and 'war' is not an argument/complement?

Code: Select all

Ḳaılsìà ḷár kaúh.
die<3>.FUT war.OBL man.PAT
The man dies after the war.
Right!
Omzinesý wrote: 04 Jun 2021 14:09In the inverse voice clause, 'war' becomes a subject and 'man' becomes an object, but because the subject reserves the PAT case, the object has to appear on the OBL case? And 'man' appears in parenthesis just because it can be cross-referenced, not because it were a oblique/adjunct?

Code: Select all

[b]Aìḳìlàt (kaha) ḷuá.[/b]
[size=85]INV.die<A> (man.OBL) war.PAT[/size]
The war was died for (by men).
I think syntax trees aren't very handy unless you want to describe word-order phenomena.
Pretty much - I'm still trying to figure out what happens if the verb takes an agentive-marked subject instead (e.g ḷáaı 'fight'), and the subject therefore reserves the AGT case. On the one hand, intuitively, a benefactor should still be in the OBL:

(Apologies in advance for any and all nonsense - it's late and I'm (1) procrastinating and (2) rather tired.)

(1) Ḷıáraı (ḷár) kaıh.
fight<3PL> war.OBL man.AGT
The men fight (for the war).

And an inverse construction would look like this (verbs with AGT-marked subjects mark the inverse with í_k or í_ıka instead of (a)ì_t):

(2) Íḷáık (kaha) ḷaìr.
INV.fight<3> (man.OBL) war.AGT
The war is fought for (by men).

That seems like the simplest thing to do, making each verb's choice of an AGT- or PAT-marked subject the only source of complication. But... I'm wondering what would happen if a PAT-marked argument was introduced to an intransitive verb that takes an AGT subject. (With all this introducing of extra arguments, "intransitive" isn't really correct - I'm referring here to verbs that agree with only one person. Morphologically intransitive, perhaps.) The benefactive doesn't act like any of the other things (e.g. FUT) that can point to an OBL-marked argument (despite, like them, having an alternative prepositional phrase-based adjunct construction). It's null-marked on the verb, and sort of the odd one out. The solution would be, in intransitive AGT-subject verbs, to require a benefactive to be PAT-marked, while something introduced by another marker (again, like FUT) would be OBL. The question then is which argument the inverse would swap the AGT with.

(3) Ḳaılà hıáx kaúh.
fight<3> city.OBL man.PAT
The man dies for the city. [subject in PAT, benefactive in OBL]

(4) Ḷıáaı huxı kaıh.
fight<3> city.PAT man.AGT
The man fights for the city. [subject in AGT, benefactive in PAT]

Not to be confused with...

(5) Ḷáaı huxı kaıh.
fight<3.3> city.PAT man.AGT
The man fights the city. [verb is "transitive" (has dual agreement) - subject in AGT, object in PAT]

Then adding an oblique in we get...

(6) Ḷıâsıaı ḷár kaıh.
fight<3>.FUT war.OBL man.AGT
The man fights after the war. [subject in AGT, oblique thingamabob in OBL]

(7) Ḷıâsıaı ḷár huxı kaıh.
fight<3>.FUT war.OBL city.PAT man.AGT
The man fights for the city after the war. [subject in AGT, benefactive in PAT, thingamabob in OBL]

(8) Íḷıâsıık ḷár huxı kaıh.
INV.fight<3>.FUT war.OBL city.PAT man.AGT
?The man is fought for, by the city, after the war. [inverse swaps AGT and PAT-marked argument]
?The man is fought after, by the war, for the city. [inverse swaps AGT and OBL-marked argument]

(Do forgive the colorless green nature of these examples.)

My gut wants to go with the first of those two. So in simple terms the inverse "swaps" AGT and PAT where it can, but AGT-OBL or PAT-OBL if either an overt agentive or patientive argument is missing, regardless of the verb's inherent transitivity. If there is no overt oblique argument, it'll conjure up a benefactive (which, if overtly referenced, could end up marked with either OBL or PAT depending on how the subject is marked).

Treating the benefactive differently in this way feels right. The one thing that gives me pause is that some verbs (as seen in 4 and 5 above) have both transitive and intransitive forms that don't differ very much phonologically, and allowing a PAT-marked benefactive on an AGT-subject intransitive could lead to perhaps a bit too much ambiguity for my tastes. I suppose one solution is word order. An OBL has to immediately follow the verb, but perhaps...

(4') Ḷıáaı kaıh huxı.
fight<3> man.AGT city.PAT
The man fights for the city. [subject in AGT, benefactive in PAT]

This has interesting pragmatic implications. The end of a clause is historically sort of a volition-weighty position - VSO word order with transitive verbs is still used for poetic effect and in certain stock phrases to suggest the object is in some way consenting or colluding with the subject. It would actually make a lot of sense for this to have evolved into the benefactive (gotta love some retroactive diachronic conlanging). Saying something like (4a) instead of using the benefactive's adjunct construction (Xa·Ḷıáaı hıáx kaıh in this case) thus might imply some kind of obligation placed upon the man by the city to do so.

This all means that the final form and meaning of (8) would actually be:

(8') Íḷıâsıık ḷár kaıh huxı.
INV.fight<3>.FUT war.OBL man.AGT city.PAT
The man was fought for, by the city, after the war.
(e.g. they gave him a municipally-appointed defense lawyer to help deal with the war crimes)

...I...think...

-----------------------------------

It's 3:46 in the morning and I've decided that the theta in θ-role stands for thingamabob.

As far as accomplishments for today went... I took a walk down memory lane and translated old video game memes?

Zamûmamáılàḳma mazláaı kamut zíṣím thaúm.
zu<amv>ŕ-mà~má-ıl-à-ḳm-a ma<az>l-vŕ-ı-a kam<u>t zı<í>ṣ-vŕ-m tha<aú>m
move.solid<1.4pl>-afar~very-R-*-CONC-DISTR-VOL.ACT fixate<1>-ATTR-DUR-VOL.ACT day<OBL> three<3.PL>-ATTR-STAT bread<PAT>
I have done nothing but teleport bread for three days.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
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Ahzoh
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh »

I came up with the idea of a verb that indicates pluractionality. The verb being sarī-:

ī-sun
"They went [to that location]"

ī-sun sarī-sun
"They went [to that location] (pluractional)"
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by eldin raigmore »

Ahzoh wrote: 07 Jun 2021 00:10 I came up with the idea of a verb that indicates pluractionality. The verb being sarī-:

ī-sun
"They went [to that location]"

ī-sun sarī-sun
"They went [to that location] (pluractional)"
1. Wouldn’t that be an adverb instead of a verb?
(Or, maybe, a converb, except I don’t know what that term means!)

2. Pluractionality combines many “atomic” actions into one clause.
Pluractionality comes in several flavors, depending on what’s the difference between the various “atomic actions”.
The four biggest flavors (as near as I can tell) are:
* multiple agents (each of the boys kissed the girl).
* multiple patients (the boy kissed each of the girls).
* multiple times (the boy kissed the girl repeatedly).
* multiple places (the boy kissed the girl all over).

Depending on the language a pluractionality marker might, or might not, show which “flavor” of pluractionality is meant.

But the language probably has some means to express that, whether or not it’s a function of the pluractionality marker.

How would you express that in your conlang?

:mrgreen: How about “each of the boys kissed each of the girls repeatedly all over”?
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by jimydog000 »

I made an Interlinear gloss generator for HTML tables.
https://i.imgur.com/nRvpyID.png
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

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Ahzoh wrote: 07 Jun 2021 00:10 I came up with the idea of a verb that indicates pluractionality. The verb being sarī-:

ī-sun
"They went [to that location]"

ī-sun sarī-sun
"They went [to that location] (pluractional)"
Is this repetetion or verb doubling? I mean, is it really two words or one?
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh »

eldin raigmore wrote: 07 Jun 2021 04:56 1. Wouldn’t that be an adverb instead of a verb?
(Or, maybe, a converb, except I don’t know what that term means!)
It's not an adverb because adverbs are pretty much by definition not verbs and do not behave like verbs. Converbs are pretty much verbs that are used for adverbial expressions and they take a nonfinite form, so my verb cannot be a converb either. It's a verb verb that is fully inflected in the exact same way and degree that all verbs are.

The closest possibility is that it is an auxiliary verb, but instead of the main verb being in its bare/nonfinite form, the main verb is also fully inflected, like in a serial-verb construction.
Creyeditor wrote: 07 Jun 2021 20:31 Is this repetetion or verb doubling? I mean, is it really two words or one?
The -sun suffix indicates third person feminine plural. It is not the verb. The verb stems are ī- "go" and sarī- "pluractional indicator verb"
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Creyeditor »

A serial verb construction. Nice [:)]
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by eldin raigmore »

Creyeditor wrote: 08 Jun 2021 06:19 A serial verb construction. Nice [:)]
What Creyeditor just said [+1]
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by ixals »

So that means that sarī- can also be used on its own with no other verb accompanying it, right?
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh »

ixals wrote: 09 Jun 2021 00:51 So that means that sarī- can also be used on its own with no other verb accompanying it, right?
It's not supposed to, it's supposed to be so semantically bleached that it can't really exist on its own, much like verbs like "can" and "must" can't (unless they're used to refer to an antecedent verb in an earlier sentence or clause e.g. "Who can build the house? John can!")

Unfortunately, there is no linguistic mention regarding what is essentially an auxiliary verb whose dependent verb is fully-conjugated and finite instead of being in a less marked, nonfinite form.

It can't also be a serial verb construction because the verbs have to be equal in semantic weight.

Still, considering it is at present the only verb to behave like this, maybe I should give it a semantically fuller meaning like "repeat" or something.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Khemehekis »

Some time back, I wrote in this post:
Thinking about dystopian aspects gives me an idea for a new country in the Lehola Galaxy! This one is a country whose leaders reverse-engineered the technology of other species' speeders to create lifespeed technology for the sapient species native to their own planet. They then made lifespeeding mandatory for all newborns from now on, and filled the knowledge-base in their speeders with historical lessons riddled with fake news. Speedees will be speedborn believing it all, and their planet is left with their own Bolsonaro!
Well, I've been thinking more about that. Seeing as when I was 15 I drew the people of the planet Farume with fiery-orange skin and blonde hair, I decided to place that story in a country on Farume, since the Farumens reminded me of a certain head of state with orange skin and a blonde toupee. The sapients of Farume belong to the zesman species, and zesmans have hair made of a cellulose-heavy material similar to cotton, as do the other animals in their class. I decided the "dominating" race (like White people on Earth) would have fiery orange skin, there would be other zesmans who had yellow skin and other zesmans with beige/tan skin, and hair would come in many colors across the globe.

So yesterday I drew the plants and animals of Farume. Zesmans, I decided, would be a frugivorous and nucivorous species. They eat fruits and nuts, but no vegetables, meat, nor grains. As such, I drew the plants that are important to them. I started out with four fruits I had come up with long ago but never worked out what planet they were from: the green, apple-like nondu; the taaji, a round drupe whose outside is red with white specks; the vetimbu, a pear-shaped drupe whose outside is orange with white specks; and the waruvi, a round fruit whose outside is white and covered with tiny round indentations, with six carpels inside.

I then proceeded to create seventeen new fruits for the planet. Many of these are fruits with two big seeds: the purple, double-almond plimang; the pink, peanut-shaped tjapuugi; the babaava with a brown-speckled outside, the yellow-orange, double-almond belimis; the burgundy, ball + valve sopang; and the kasubai, a beige xylocarp. Then there are the fruits with three big seeds: the brown, clam-shaped avataan; and the purple, heart-like moyangdang. A few are fruits with a single lengthwise opening like dead man's fingers: the purple waatja with a brown cap; and the burgundy bibingi, just a long fruit. The koverni is a red, plum-like fruit that grows on a tree with catkins and has a small, single seed (not a stone like a real plum). The lalonga is a yellow, tusk-shaped berry. The makibii is a vine fruit, triangular and blue with white specks on the outside. The bebuu is a soft, wrinkly burgundy berry that grows on a vine. The zalantel is a yellow berry in the shape of a turnip. The yoteng is a red hesperidium. The isay-isay is green and diamond-shaped, similar to a cherimoya.

Then come the nuts. The pevador is red and teardrop-shaped; the vizi has a beige shell with a smaller brown nut inside. The faboza has a brown nut covered with rambutan-like hairs. Finally, the klaango (yes, Fluffy8x!) is a yellow, peach-shaped nut that looks something like a yellow macadamia.

Some other plants important to the Farumens are the diamond-leaved aquizit with its drug in the yellow part; the tjenzon, whose round white berry contains a drug; the tiqui, with resembles a barrel-shaped palm with spikes like those of a prickly pear and provides fiber; the etju, whose small round brown berries make a very sweet caffeinated beverage; the sotji, a grain-like plant eaten by grazing animals; the dijima, which has a multistoried bamboo-like stalk with brown nuts at the top; and the gordan, a hardwood tree with a thick trunk.

Now for the animals! The ornithologue class on Farume, the gigi class, has beaks like birds but has cottony fur instead of feathers. There are the yellow famani; the red, purple and green tropical puraip; the purple queguep with a red crest; the green-and-yellow parrot-like apong; the red-and-magenta tjitjiz, with its phoenix-like tail feathers; the tall, grey-and-white aagu, with its blue crest; the grey, seagull-like melvija; and the blue, aquiline dudong with its bald grey head.

There is no reptologue class on Farume. There are mingas (ophiologues) like the brown, cobra-like siimus and the green blita; the magenta, chameleon-like akan-akan; and the white crocodilian yavupi, but these have fur instead of scales. Other non-gigi furry creatures include the purple, bat-like dodogo with its butterfly-like antennae; the ifu, a long-eared dog-like pet, blue with orange stripes; the tiger-like yazita, which is white with green stripes; the fusmor, white with orange stripes, which resembles a rabbit with a long tail; the golden, rodent-like glem, with its bare white tail terminating in a golden cotton puff; the bratjii, a big, orange rodent-like creature; the tunga, which resembles a mammoth or Snuffleupagus but has two upward horns behind its trunk instead of two tusks; the tjembo, an orange beast of burden with a horse-like tail and donkey's ears; the spiky, light blue wabukhaz; the vormutj, a red, hoofed creature with a wolf-like face; the green, long-necked adagad, a hoofed creature with a blue shell, which can be ridden like the tjembo but is a better swimmer; the hoofed, purple stemfan, which has both droop ears and two horns; and the monkey-like zongkos, with white fur, long tail, and red face, from which the zesmans evolved.

Worms include the wingworm, a white worm that has no limbs but does have two wings; and the linkworm, a worm of many round links which follows its companions into making circles as they sink deeper and deeper into the sand, sort of like a processionary caterpillar and sort of like a caecilian. Arthrologues include the six-legged, beetle-like otjoto, with its purple elytra, antennae, and big red eyes; the amber, six-legged, eusocial aleng, also with antennae and made of three big balls, the biggest ball being its thorax; the pink, six-legged palpalo, with resembles a butterfly but has only two wings; the big-eyed, six-legged fly-like invo; the six-legged parasitic tjipas, with its white, conical thorax attached to a white head; and the one-segment, eight-legged, purple-grey khugi, a cave-dweller.

The ichthyologue class on Farume is known as the dwimang class. People often feed dwimangs to their pets or farm animals, even though zesmans never eat dwimangs themselves. There is the nanu, blue with aqua fins and resembling a blunt-nosed tuna, salmon or bass -- the classic fish look; the brown skejo, with three plates on its back, each overlooking the segment in front of it; the round waalu, yellow with small coral spots; the primitive, green majaabi with its long, carnivorous mouth and its brown lobe-fins; the tropical, river-dwelling kaviteno, red with black stripes; and the blue, striped, tetra-like tozipo. Other aquatic Fazumen fauna include the sajiji, a dolphin-like creature with white, cottony, fur; the blakhiskhis, a radiate with eight thin arms each terminating in a ball; the white, jelly-like glabuu with its thin tentacles; the green, six-tentacled tupo'o with its blue, two-oak-galls shell; the green, six-tentacled limlim with its white, two-lobed shell with a lengthwise opening in front like a cowrie's shell; the sessile, blue-grey golgon, with a toothed mouth segment that opens and closes, atop a ball-shaped segment attached to the ocean floor; the pink-shelled, antennate, three-segmented, six-legged shkef, and the three-segmented, four-legged ublugh, coral with eye stalks and a white shell.

That drawing session was worth it! Now I need to make a map of Farume so I know how much is ocean and what part is rain-forest. I'm not as interested in the other biomes, but I don't want the entire land area of Farume to be rain-forest. Any way to make a planet so there's no tundra? I figure there'll be desert, chaparral, savannah, and temperate regions too.

Also, if I have zesmans with fiery orange skin, zesmans with yellow skin, and zesmans with beige/tan skin, which biomes will each skin color be best adapted to?
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh »

Regarding my other conlang Hussite, I came up with this copula structure:
Ua Samsaddiai āfaš
/wa samsatːijaj aːfaʃ /
"He is Samsaddi" (lit. "he Samsaddi-like man")

Ua Šanarai irdaš
/wa ʃanaɾaj iɾtaʃ/
"She is Shanar" (lit. "she Shanar-like woman")

Mi Asunardai āfaš
/mi asunaɾtaj aːfaʃ/
"I am Ezu-Narda" (lit. "I Ezu-Narda-like man")

Or more appositively:
Ua āfaš Samsaddi "I man Samsaddi"
Ua irdaš Šanar "I woman Shanar"
Mi āfaš Asunarda "I man Ezu-Narda"

Compare with equivalent Vrkhazhian sentences, that has a proper copula verb and is pro-drop:

(Kī) Samsaddâm kūsi
"He is Samsaddi"

(Kū) Śanaram kūsu
"She is Shanar"

(Anu) Ezu-Narda kūna
"I am Ezu-Narda"
Last edited by Ahzoh on 10 Jun 2021 23:29, edited 3 times in total.
Image Śād Warḫālali (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
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Creyeditor
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Creyeditor »

That sounds great. The Husseite construction is very similar to Indonesian (except for the -like suffix).
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[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
teotlxixtli
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by teotlxixtli »

Last night at 3:45 in the morning I finished the lexicon for my language Khalsngaa, with over a thousand words. I’ve worked on this language all summer and to have it finally be speakable feels really good.
Khemehekis
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Khemehekis »

I drew the animals (the non-sapient animals) in the tetramantoid bioswath. Tetramantoids are like these guys: an insectoid anatomy, look like praying mantises, but only have four limbs.


Also, I finally named the linguae francae of Nexon and Pluos. Although I knew what the languages "sounded" like (quotes because the languages are both telepathic), they never had names until now. Now the lingua franca of Nexon is called Ixender, and the lingua franca of Pluos is called Ampwanitz.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 72,500 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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