What did you accomplish today?

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 2935
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by elemtilas »

Khemehekis wrote: 27 Apr 2021 02:40 I drew more than 200 animal species from Keitel. The next task is naming all the plants and animals! (I've already named the viruses, bacteria, protists, and members of my sessile heterotroph kingdom known as the tlogephlaoms.)
Keep chugging away!
User avatar
kiwikami
roman
roman
Posts: 1128
Joined: 26 May 2012 17:24
Location: Oh, I don't know, I'm probably around here somewhere.

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by kiwikami »

Working on getting myself a proper desktop computer for gaming / video editing / 3d modeling purposes after years of secondhand laptops; figured I'd add a heap of miscellaneous computer terminology to Alál's noun lexicon. In general, I think in the digital age the language ends up co-opting the somewhat archaic handling class / nominalizer / derivational morpheme KLAŔ ("symbol"), whose meanings had largely been absorbed into MUŔ ("visual abstraction"), for digital or virtual manipulations of things. So a lot of verbs to do with affecting virtual objects will incorporate KLAŔ as a handling morpheme, and a few nouns will use it as well.

I think "paint-palette mind" is my favorite.

lım·ùḳîu|lım·ùḳâu|lım·ùḳùr (LMÙḲ) "cache" (little memory box)
mûh·ahaıṭ|mûh·ahaṭa|mûh·ahaúṭ (MHAH) "compact disc" (information disk)
 -also mhaıh|mhaha|mhaúh
ḳmárıù|ḳmâru|ḳmâraù "computer" (great parsing machine)
klá·alaıs|klá·alasa|klá·alaús (KLAL) "CPU" ("symbolic"/virtual mind)
klaımramıuà|klaımramuà|klaımramàuà "cursor" (visual abstraction that manipulates "symbols")
múklah·ùḳıù|múklah·ùḳàu|múklah·ùḳúr (MHÙḲ) "drive" (box for "symbolic"/virtual information)
 -also mhíuḳ|muhàuḳ|mhúḳ
mıḳàıẓ·alaıs|mıḳàıẓ·alasa|mıḳàıẓ·alaús (MAL) "GPU" (paint-palette mind)
xmaḷı·úmhíuḳ|xmaḷı·ûmhauḳ|xmaḷı·úmhúḳ "HDD" (magnet drive)
kalàẓhaıs|kalàẓhas|kalàẓhàs "keyboard" (sheet of heterogynous set of letters)
lîẓım|líẓıám|líẓumı "memory" (great heterogynous set of memories)
kahaıt|kahat|kahat "monitor" (sheet of light)
mùurhaıṭ|mùurhaṭ|mùurhàṭ motherboard (little internal lattice-sheet)
mıumrataıà|mıumrataà|mıumratàa "mouse" (tool that manipulates a visual abstraction)
mlaru·ìrıẓkalaì|mlaru·ìrıẓkalà|mlaru·ìrıẓkalàr (MRÌR) "OS" (governing program)
 -also mırìr|mrıár|mrurı, which is coincidentally also parse-able as "great ear" or "listening one"
kàh·ílíṭ|kàh·îlaıṭ|kàh·îluıṭ "pixel" (little color square)
rıẓkalaì|rıẓkalà|rıẓkalàr program ("symbolic"/virtual heterogynous set of actions)
lîẓım ítxıùzûak|líẓıám ítxıùzûak|líẓumı ítxıùzûak "RAM" (memory that is written to)
lîẓım ílıìrîak|líẓıám ílıìrîak|líẓumı ílıìrîak "ROM" (memory that is read)
lùmuk·úmhíuḳ|lùmuk·ûmhauḳ|lùmuk·úmhúḳ "SSD" (circuit drive)
lumak·umhíuḳ|lumak·umhàuḳ|lumak·umhúḳ (LKUḲ) "USB drive" (traveler drive)
 -pun on the term for SSD, since lùmuk "circuit" and lumak "traveler" share a root
 -also lkıuḳ|lkaḳu|lkúḳ for any removable storage

Writing things out this way really brings home just how many declension classes there are. Nine "simple" ones and then a trio of others for nominalized verbs and nouns with certain infixes (-kla-, -ha-, -ru-, -ta-, -mu-, -ma-...).
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
Nortaneous
greek
greek
Posts: 633
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 13:28

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Nortaneous »

Rau causatives

dafgia "the man descends" > lqasiau vndafg "I make the man descend"
nafmwxkwvt "the woman shops" > lqac!wvuti wnafmwk "I make the woman shop"
yiwgaulgw ra "the sailor fastens it" > lqaz!wu vnyiwgaul "I make the sailor fasten sth."
mrojryqvmzvg "the barbarian hacks sth. to pieces" > lqaswyqvmzeug wmrojr "I make the barbarian hack sth. to pieces"
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1007
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Man in Space »

I’ve gotten pretty much all of the CT logosyllabic canon mapped out in my notebook. Now I can work on new symbols to supplement what I have so far.
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝate n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
PTO = Proto-Tim Ar-O
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2825
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Dormouse559 »

Nortaneous wrote: 03 May 2021 03:02 mrojryqvmzvg "the barbarian hacks sth. to pieces" > lqaswyqvmzeug wmrojr "I make the barbarian hack sth. to pieces"
Did you never think to ask the barbarian whether they want to hack sth. to pieces? [:O] [:P]

I did enjoy puzzling out what each morpheme must be, though [:)]
Nortaneous
greek
greek
Posts: 633
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 13:28

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Nortaneous »

Dormouse559 wrote: 03 May 2021 06:04
Nortaneous wrote: 03 May 2021 03:02 mrojryqvmzvg "the barbarian hacks sth. to pieces" > lqaswyqvmzeug wmrojr "I make the barbarian hack sth. to pieces"
Did you never think to ask the barbarian whether they want to hack sth. to pieces? [:O] [:P]

I did enjoy puzzling out what each morpheme must be, though [:)]
Probably easier in the classical orthography:
dảg ea > lqa seá in dag
nảmouk kouat > lqa çouát in nảmouk
shiḡál gou ra > lqa gçoú in shiḡál
mr̄òr shqumz̄eg > lqa su shqumz̄ég in mr̄òr

[d̥æ̌.ijə] > [ɬqʰɐsijá n̩dæ̌j]
[nǎmɨxkʰɨɣət] > [ɬqʰɐkǂʰɨɣʌ́t ʲɨnǎmɨk]
[ʃʲɨɟáɬɟ̥ɨ ɢ̥a] > [ɬqʰɐgǂɯ́ n̩ʃʲɨɟáɬ]
[mʁòʁʃqʰəmʐəj] > [ɬqʰɐsɨʃqɐmzéj ɨmʁòʁ]

dafgia "the man descends" > lqasiau vndafg "I make the man descend"
nafmwxkwvt "the woman shops" > lqac!wvuti wnafmwk "I make the woman shop"
yiwgaulgw ra "the sailor fastens it" > lqaz!wu vnyiwgaul "I make the sailor fasten sth."
mrojryqvmzvg "the barbarian hacks sth. to pieces" > lqaswyqvmzeug wmrojr "I make the barbarian hack sth. to pieces"

(<ḡ z̄ r̄> were /gʟʲ r ɫ/ and are now /ɟ dz̠ ɢ/, but that's beside the point)
Khemehekis
runic
runic
Posts: 2815
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Khemehekis »

kiwikami wrote: 29 Apr 2021 23:14 lım·ùḳîu|lım·ùḳâu|lım·ùḳùr (LMÙḲ) "cache" (little memory box)
mûh·ahaıṭ|mûh·ahaṭa|mûh·ahaúṭ (MHAH) "compact disc" (information disk)
 -also mhaıh|mhaha|mhaúh
ḳmárıù|ḳmâru|ḳmâraù "computer" (great parsing machine)
klá·alaıs|klá·alasa|klá·alaús (KLAL) "CPU" ("symbolic"/virtual mind)
klaımramıuà|klaımramuà|klaımramàuà "cursor" (visual abstraction that manipulates "symbols")
múklah·ùḳıù|múklah·ùḳàu|múklah·ùḳúr (MHÙḲ) "drive" (box for "symbolic"/virtual information)
 -also mhíuḳ|muhàuḳ|mhúḳ
mıḳàıẓ·alaıs|mıḳàıẓ·alasa|mıḳàıẓ·alaús (MAL) "GPU" (paint-palette mind)
xmaḷı·úmhíuḳ|xmaḷı·ûmhauḳ|xmaḷı·úmhúḳ "HDD" (magnet drive)
kalàẓhaıs|kalàẓhas|kalàẓhàs "keyboard" (sheet of heterogynous set of letters)
lîẓım|líẓıám|líẓumı "memory" (great heterogynous set of memories)
kahaıt|kahat|kahat "monitor" (sheet of light)
mùurhaıṭ|mùurhaṭ|mùurhàṭ motherboard (little internal lattice-sheet)
mıumrataıà|mıumrataà|mıumratàa "mouse" (tool that manipulates a visual abstraction)
mlaru·ìrıẓkalaì|mlaru·ìrıẓkalà|mlaru·ìrıẓkalàr (MRÌR) "OS" (governing program)
 -also mırìr|mrıár|mrurı, which is coincidentally also parse-able as "great ear" or "listening one"
kàh·ílíṭ|kàh·îlaıṭ|kàh·îluıṭ "pixel" (little color square)
rıẓkalaì|rıẓkalà|rıẓkalàr program ("symbolic"/virtual heterogynous set of actions)
lîẓım ítxıùzûak|líẓıám ítxıùzûak|líẓumı ítxıùzûak "RAM" (memory that is written to)
lîẓım ílıìrîak|líẓıám ílıìrîak|líẓumı ílıìrîak "ROM" (memory that is read)
lùmuk·úmhíuḳ|lùmuk·ûmhauḳ|lùmuk·úmhúḳ "SSD" (circuit drive)
lumak·umhíuḳ|lumak·umhàuḳ|lumak·umhúḳ (LKUḲ) "USB drive" (traveler drive)
 -pun on the term for SSD, since lùmuk "circuit" and lumak "traveler" share a root
 -also lkıuḳ|lkaḳu|lkúḳ for any removable storage
That's a lot of derivations! I usually borrow my Kankonian computer terms from Javarti or Achel.

The computer words from the LCV (Landau Core Vocabulary):

COMPUTERS
Spoiler:
to access (data)
to access (file)
to click
developer (company)
file
to install (software)
laptop
program
software
Internet, web
blog
board
chat
email (system)
email (message)
forum
link
online (~ information)
to post
to tweet
user
website
MORE COMPUTERS
Spoiler:
back-up
to back up (a file)
bit
byte
kilobyte
CD-ROM
CPU
cursor
database
to delete
display (on computer screen)
distribution (of software)
to download (transitive)
floppy disk
hard disk
hard drive
icon
keyboard (for computer)
to load
memory
menu
menu bar
microchip
modem
monitor, screen
mouse
operating system
password
printer
to process (data)
programming
to save
to update (software)
to upload (transitive)
virus
window
word processor
address bar
browser
chatroom
to flame
lurker
newbie
newsgroup
post
poster
provider (for Internet service)
search (on computer)
search engine
server
social media
spam
thread
troll
URL
username, screenname
I see you also have some that aren't on my list, such as "GPU" and "motherboard". Good job!
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 72,500 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
User avatar
kiwikami
roman
roman
Posts: 1128
Joined: 26 May 2012 17:24
Location: Oh, I don't know, I'm probably around here somewhere.

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by kiwikami »

Khemehekis wrote: 04 May 2021 09:53The computer words from the LCV (Landau Core Vocabulary):
Oooh, many thanks - I'll tackle some of these at some point!

I re-made my old one-page reference/morphology cheat-sheet for Alál. Funnily enough, despite containing more information than the last, it actually has a bit of empty space because I reformatted everything and removed no-longer-relevant information. Could probably make even more space if I shrunk down the whitespace in the noun declension bit. So there's room for some extra syntactic tidbits if I think of anything that I don't currently have memorized. This thing, in conjunction with the root list and slowly-growing nominal dictionary (I should eventually start one for verbs...) is all I need these days to put proper sentences together - assuming I don't forget everything else.

Image

I'm mostly glad to have the full set of handling verbs / nominalizers / derivational affixes in there, since I'm trying to make more use of them. There's a rather large difference between bringing your uncle to a party using the verb root MAŔ (people), bringing your very drunk uncle to the party using the root ḶIŔ ("mushy matter" held loosely in one's hands), and bringing your stoic and not-party-friendly uncle using the root ḲIŔ (long stiff slender objects). I suppose you'd use TZIŔ (thing on display / thing carried on tray or platter / food) if he was famous and you wanted to show him off, and that's absolutely used as a cannibalism pun equivalent to "having someone over for dinner". Many of these aren't being used productively anymore and some have been repurposed (KLAŔ has seen new life for digital constructs and computer-related terminology). It's fun to hearken back to Alál's very, very distant roots during my time at the Navajo Language Academy.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
Itlani Jim
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 11
Joined: 12 Sep 2017 15:06

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Itlani Jim »

Franartantoilu iíz rahaova ferfelavit onyaru ruzay prazharafya vemyavu u Itlansholit avuro zhoyit tormata Seyrán ta Tainaa tsorni lonevyira. Hatrinizhe seti zar mindoavá iküi djuran onyaru say (seti 237 rumelavá ta Angliit blavkaa).

I haven't posted anything here in a long time but I just wanted to make public that an Itlani language version of my novel Circle of the Lantern is now being prepared. I am approximately two thirds of the way through now (that is 237 pages of the English text). [:D]
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 2935
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by elemtilas »

Itlani Jim wrote: 13 May 2021 15:17 Franartantoilu iíz rahaova ferfelavit onyaru ruzay prazharafya vemyavu u Itlansholit avuro zhoyit tormata Seyrán ta Tainaa tsorni lonevyira. Hatrinizhe seti zar mindoavá iküi djuran onyaru say (seti 237 rumelavá ta Angliit blavkaa).

I haven't posted anything here in a long time but I just wanted to make public that an Itlani language version of my novel Circle of the Lantern is now being prepared. I am approximately two thirds of the way through now (that is 237 pages of the English text). [:D]
Now that's an accomplishment! :mrgreen:
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4337
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Creyeditor »

I made a list of verbs of movement in Kobardon that I already coined up to now. There are twice as many verbs for going down compared to going up.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Khemehekis
runic
runic
Posts: 2815
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Khemehekis »

Itlani Jim wrote: 13 May 2021 15:17 Franartantoilu iíz rahaova ferfelavit onyaru ruzay prazharafya vemyavu u Itlansholit avuro zhoyit tormata Seyrán ta Tainaa tsorni lonevyira. Hatrinizhe seti zar mindoavá xküi djuran onyaru say (seti 237 rumelavá ta Angliit blavkaa).

I haven't posted anything here in a long time but I just wanted to make public that an Itlani language version of my novel Circle of the Lantern is now being prepared. I am approximately two thirds of the way through now (that is 237 pages of the English text). [:D]
Welcome back to the board! [:D]



Meanwhile, I named all my Keitelese plants and animals! By the time I finished, the lexicon of Achel was up to 3,716 words.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 72,500 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
User avatar
Ahzoh
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4106
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Canada

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh »

I have a full set of paradigms now:

√P-R-Ḫ (speak, say)

Code: Select all

PaRuḪna  (1cs active realis)
naPRaḪna (1cs active irrealis I)
PaRḪānna (1cs active irrealis II)
taPRuḪna   (1cs applicative realis)
nataPRaḪna (1cs applicative irrealis I)
taPRaḪānna (1cs applicative irrealis II)

Code: Select all

PaRRaḪ-   (active adjective)
PaRāḪ-    (active agent)
PañyāRāḪ- (active collective)
PuRḪurim  (active gerund)
maPRaḪum  (active associated object)
maPPaRḪum (active associated location)
PaRRaḪaḪ-   (applicative adjective)
PaRḪāḪ-     (applicative agent)
PañyaRḪāḪ-  (applicative collective)
PuRḪuḪurim  (applicative gerund)
maPaRḪaḪum  (applicative associated object)
maPPaRḪaḪum (applicative associated location)
I'll have to work something out for weak roots, because some of these paradigms are utterly destroyed by them.
Image Śād Warḫālali (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Omzinesý »

Ahzoh wrote: 20 May 2021 01:06 I have a full set of paradigms now:

√P-R-Ḫ (speak, say)

Code: Select all

PaRuḪna  (1cs active realis)
naPRaḪna (1cs active irrealis I)
PaRḪānna (1cs active irrealis II)
taPRuḪna   (1cs applicative realis)
nataPRaḪna (1cs applicative irrealis I)
taPRaḪānna (1cs applicative irrealis II)

Code: Select all

PaRRaḪ-   (active adjective)
PaRāḪ-    (active agent)
PañyāRāḪ- (active collective)
PuRḪurim  (active gerund)
maPRaḪum  (active associated object)
maPPaRḪum (active associated location)
PaRRaḪaḪ-   (applicative adjective)
PaRḪāḪ-     (applicative agent)
PañyaRḪāḪ-  (applicative collective)
PuRḪuḪurim  (applicative gerund)
maPaRḪaḪum  (applicative associated object)
maPPaRḪaḪum (applicative associated location)
I'll have to work something out for weak roots, because some of these paradigms are utterly destroyed by them.
What do those labels mean?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Ahzoh
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4106
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Canada

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh »

Omzinesý wrote: 22 May 2021 18:12 What do those labels mean?
They are what each pattern/template signifies
Image Śād Warḫālali (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
User avatar
Ahzoh
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4106
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Canada

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh »

Vowel inventories of the two major registers/dialects of Vrkhazhian:

Code: Select all

/a aː i iː u uː/          <a ā i ī u ū>         (Old Vrkhazhian)
/ɒ ɒː æ æː i iː u uː/     <a ā e ē i ī u ū>     (Imperial Vrkhazhian)
/ɑ ɑː e eː o oː i iː u uː/<a ā e ē o ō i ī u ū> (Common Vrkhazhian)

Code: Select all

aʔ aʡ > a e   (geminates following consonant)
iʔ iʡ > i i~e (geminates following consonant)
uʔ uʡ > u u~o (geminates following consonant)
ah aħ aj aw > ā ē ī~ē ū~ō
ih iħ ij iw > ī ī~ē ī ū
uh uħ uj uw > ū ū~ō ī ū
Only thing left is to figure out if there is to be open-vowel vowel-harmony in Imperial and whether affixes will be triggered by the root or be the trigger itself. Or even be affected at all.

Don't know, wanted to do something like /ˈsaw.maj/ "soul-CNS.PL" > /ˈsuː.mæː/ vs /ˈsoː.meː/ but /aj/ would normally become /a/ at that place in a word
Image Śād Warḫālali (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
User avatar
kiwikami
roman
roman
Posts: 1128
Joined: 26 May 2012 17:24
Location: Oh, I don't know, I'm probably around here somewhere.

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by kiwikami »

I've been messing around with voice in Alál and reasoning out how the inverse works in intransitive verbs - I've always wanted to have that be some kind of circumstantial construction, and I've played with it before but never settled on anything definitive.

A verb has three possible argument slots: A, B, and sometimes C. A and B are the slots marked by the person agreement marker, usually the agent and patient in active voice and vice-versa in inverse voice; an intransitive verb has only slot A filled. C is the oblique argument slot; for verbs without an axis marker (one of a set of sometimes-inflectional, sometimes-derivational suffixes, including tense and direction of motion), or with only certain derivational ones, this is by default the benefactive (otherwise specified with the preposition xa). If the verb has an axis marker that references some non-overt argument, this argument may be specified with an oblique noun immediately following (e.g. Kàtax 'I looked up at him' incorporates 'Y+', so an oblique argument here would indicate "up relative to what": Kàtkàax luakaát 'I looked up at him on the scaffolding').

Which markers are lexicalized differs from verb to verb. So, Kàt 'I examine his left side' could take an oblique argument specifying "left relative to what", such as Kàtsùaı haḳı 'I examine what's to the left of his nose'. But Kàtḳma 'I glance at him excessively', though using the same marker, does not imply some non-overt oblique thing floating around, because here is not being used literally to refer to motion to the left of something. This is very tenuous and I wouldn't be surprised if, outside of verbs of motion and tense markers, use of an oblique noun alongside an axis marker is becoming increasingly rare - but both motion verbs and tense would probably retain it.

There can be more than one marker - only the first non-lexicalized one is specifiable in this way.

In a transitive active verb, arguments A and B are subject and object, respectively. In a transitive inverse verb, A and B are flipped. In a transitive causative verb, A is now the causer; the role taken by A is given to B, and B is caused to perform the intransitive meaning of the verb. Filling the C slot with an oblique noun leads to B performing the transitive meaning on C, which would have been the object. The causative will always require transitive-style verb marking (since causatives are at minimum bivalent), it's just that the actual arguments indicated by it will change.

Here are examples, given that "glow" and "see" are intransitive and transitive forms of the same verb (the former historically being "be visible").

Kaıtı mraúk. [intrans.]
glow<A> wall.PAT
The wall is glowing.

Katı mraúk xalıux. [trans.]
see<A.B> wall.PAT beast.AGT
The beast sees the wall.

Úkatıs xalàux kaıh. [bivalent caus.]
glow<A.B>.CAUS beast.PAT man.AGT
The man makes the beast glow.

Úkatıs mraka xalàux kaıh. [trivalent caus.]
see<A.B>.CAUS wall.OBL beast.PAT man.AGT
The man shows the beast the wall.

Úkatıs ràr xalàux kaıh. [trivalent caus.]
see<A.B>.CAUS that.OBL beast.PAT man.AGT
The man shows the beast something.

Given how RAR3 ríra|ràr|arùra works this is literally "The man shows the beast the showing."

----

We can have structures in the inverse voice like this:

Katsìı xalàux kaıh.
see<A.B>.FUT beast.PAT man.AGT
The man will see the beast.

Aìkatsìıt xalàux kaıh.
INV.see<A.B>.FUT beast.PAT man.AGT
The man will be seen by the beast.

Aìkatsìıt ḷár xalàux kaıh.
INV.see<A.B>.FUT war.OBL beast.PAT man.AGT
The man will be seen by the beast after the war.

As with in the examples, the future tense can be further defined by an oblique argument.

Kaıtsìı ḷár kaúh.
glow<A>.FUT war.OBL man.PAT
The man will glow after the war.

Since Kaıtı 'be glowing' cannot incorporate direction of motion, using wouldn't allow a new oblique argument; that affix takes its non-literal interpretation, so adding an oblique forces the default benefactive reading instead:

Kaıtsùı ḷár kaúh.
glow<A>.sù war.OBL man.PAT
The man is glowing excessively for (to assist in) the war.
*The man is glowing to the left of the war.

----

So, given all of that... I deeply want to have the inverse for an intransitive swap A and C (the oblique argument introduced by FUT). Thus:

Aìkaıtsìıt kaha ḷuá.
INV.glow<A>.FUT man.OBL war.PAT
The war will have the man glowing after it.

This is a little strange in translation but has fun potential for relative clauses using attributive verbs, which require that their subjects be argument A:

Ḷâx [ḷár aìkaıtâsııt kaha] xalıux.
fight<A.B> [war.OBL INV.glow<A>.ATTR.FUT man.OBL] beast.AGT
The beast fought in [the war after which the man glowed].

Heck, ḷár aìkìtâsııt "the war after which there was glowing" would be a pretty useful term in certain post-apocalyptic fiction.

----

An inverse without any axis markers would naturally default C to the benefactive:

Aḳìsḳalà ḷár kaúh.
die<A.manyA> war.OBL man.PAT
Many men died for the war.

Aìḳìsḳalàt kaúh.
INV.die<A.manyA> man.PAT
Many men were died for.

Aìḳìlàt (kaha) ḷuá.
INV.die<A> (man.OBL) war.PAT
The war was died for (by men).

Alas, there's no way to keep the quantifier in there for "men" in the oblique, since there's no quantification option for C arguments. We could do something like it with an iterative and a distributive plural, though:

Aìḳìlḳamḳamt (kaha) ḷuá.
INV.die<A>.ITER.DIST (man.OBL) war.PAT
The war was died for (by men) again and again.

----

Ḳazluà ràr.
die<1>.DEO that.OBL
I would die for something.

Aìḳazlamàuàt?
INV.die<1>.Q.DEO
Would anyone die for me?

This is beginning to physically pain my brain and I have a paper on ASL sociophonology to finish tonight, so I'm gonna go try to accomplish that today. But at least by slotting object incorporation in there I can now say such useful things as aìzaıktummaḳmaḳmat "the person for whom fish are gutted again and again" and íḳılusùatûhasaàḳmak "the place down from which tall people are being thrown (like javelins)". Very useful in everyday speech.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4337
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Creyeditor »

This all looks so Northern American and at the same time so German to me.

Dem Krieg wird vom Mann nach-geleuchtet.
the.DAT war PASS by.the man after-glowed
'The war will be glowed after by the man.' or less literally 'The war will be investigated by the man'

Glosses are simplified of course because German.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Omzinesý
runic
runic
Posts: 3079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Omzinesý »

kiwikami wrote: 31 May 2021 07:43
Aìḳìlàt (kaha) ḷuá.
INV.die<A> (man.OBL) war.PAT
The war was died for (by men).
If the circumstantial construction derives from an inverse voice instead of a passive, should the agent still be an obligatory complement? Or do I misunderstand?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
kiwikami
roman
roman
Posts: 1128
Joined: 26 May 2012 17:24
Location: Oh, I don't know, I'm probably around here somewhere.

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by kiwikami »

Omzinesý wrote: 31 May 2021 13:15
kiwikami wrote: 31 May 2021 07:43
Aìḳìlàt (kaha) ḷuá.
INV.die<A> (man.OBL) war.PAT
The war was died for (by men).
If the circumstantial construction derives from an inverse voice instead of a passive, should the agent still be an obligatory complement? Or do I misunderstand?
Mm, syntax definitely isn't my forte, so I may be using the wrong terminology here. There isn't an agent per say since 'die' only takes a patientive-marked argument (the alignment is split-S); the circumstantial switches this with the oblique in terms of what is marked how, and it doesn't reduce valency. (I used <A> and <A.B> in the glosses to mark the two person-agreeing arguments whose specific thematic roles vary depending on voice, but that may have just caused confusion.) Overt complements aren't mandatory in either case - both the patient and oblique are fully/completely indicated (underlyingly, at least) through marking on the verb: the patient with person agreement via that first ì [3SG], and the oblique via the benefactive, which is null-marked but whose presence in this case is required since the inverse cannot appear on an intransitive verb that does not have some oblique thing lingering in a corner somewhere, waiting to be called upon.

I did wonder if the oblique here might technically be an adjunct rather than an complement, since its existence may be specified but is only optionally overt... but then, the patientive-marked noun (and the agentive-marked one, in a verb that either is transitive or only takes an agent) is also optional:

Aìḳìlàt kaha.
INV.die<3SG> man.OBL
Something was died for by men/a man.

There's also a distinct syntactic difference between using an oblique noun after a verb with a certain marker (e.g. FUT) and using that marker's prepositional equivalent (the benefactive does have an overt one of these - it's xa); namely, the former allows the circumstantial voice, while the latter does not, despite both involving an oblique-marked noun directly after the verb. The latter is pretty clearly an adjunct situation, just a standard prepositional phrase, but in the former it does seem like the oblique is an actual argument/complement.

Ḳaılsìà ḷár kaúh.
die<3>.FUT war.OBL man.PAT
The man dies after the war.

Aìḳaılsìàt ḷár kaúh.
INV.die<3>.FUT war.OBL man.PAT
The man has the war dying after him.

Sì·Ḳaılà ḷár kaúh.
FUT die<3> war.OBL man.PAT
The man dies after the war.

*Sì·Aìḳaılàt ḷár kaúh.
FUT INV.die<3> war.OBL man.PAT
*The man has the war dying after him.

Not sure if that made any kind of sense - it has been literal years since I drew a proper syntax tree...
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
Post Reply