Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/p pˀ t tˀ č čˀ k kˀ q qˀ/
/pʷ pʷˀ tʷ tʷˀ čʷ čʷˀ kʷ kʷˀ qʷ qʷˀ/
/m mˀ n nˀ ŋ ŋˀ/
/mʷ mʷˀ nʷ nʷˀ ŋʷ ŋʷˀ/
/f fˀ s sˀ š šˀ x xˀ x̌ x̌ˀ/
/fʷ fʷˀ sʷ sʷˀ šʷ šʷˀ xʷ xʷˀ x̌ʷ x̌ʷˀ/
/w wˀ r rˀ l lˀ y yˀ/
/rʷ rʷˀ lʷ lʷˀ yʷ yʷˀ/
That isn't IPA.
/a ə ɨ/
Word structure:
First consonant may be anything, those clusters in brackets may be fricative+stop, nasal+stop, fricative+nasal, approximant+stop, fricative+approximant or a geminate
(C)[(C)(C)]V[(C)(C)][(C)(C)]
/pʷ pʷˀ tʷ tʷˀ čʷ čʷˀ kʷ kʷˀ qʷ qʷˀ/
/m mˀ n nˀ ŋ ŋˀ/
/mʷ mʷˀ nʷ nʷˀ ŋʷ ŋʷˀ/
/f fˀ s sˀ š šˀ x xˀ x̌ x̌ˀ/
/fʷ fʷˀ sʷ sʷˀ šʷ šʷˀ xʷ xʷˀ x̌ʷ x̌ʷˀ/
/w wˀ r rˀ l lˀ y yˀ/
/rʷ rʷˀ lʷ lʷˀ yʷ yʷˀ/
That isn't IPA.
/a ə ɨ/
Word structure:
First consonant may be anything, those clusters in brackets may be fricative+stop, nasal+stop, fricative+nasal, approximant+stop, fricative+approximant or a geminate
(C)[(C)(C)]V[(C)(C)][(C)(C)]
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
This time, ideas concerning accent
There are two tones High (H) and Low/Mid/unmarked (L).
Every phonetic word has one (at least) or two (at most) high tones/accents. (The accent system somewhat resembles that of Swedish.)
Tones are attached to a tone bearing unit (TBU), which are vowel segments at this stage of conlangung. Vowels can be short (one segment) or long (two segments).
Constraints
- Two high tones cannot appear adjacently (neither in the same syllable nor adjacent ones). That is, they must be separate peaks. (See (3).)
- Lowering tones (combination HL in one syllable) are forbidden as the first accent (see (1), (2)), and (4) but can appear as the second one (see (5)).
Allowed melodies
aá
á.a
a.á
aá.a
á.aá
(5) á.a.áa
Forbidden melodies
(1) áa.a
(2) áa.á
(3) á.á
(4) a.áa
There are two tones High (H) and Low/Mid/unmarked (L).
Every phonetic word has one (at least) or two (at most) high tones/accents. (The accent system somewhat resembles that of Swedish.)
Tones are attached to a tone bearing unit (TBU), which are vowel segments at this stage of conlangung. Vowels can be short (one segment) or long (two segments).
Constraints
- Two high tones cannot appear adjacently (neither in the same syllable nor adjacent ones). That is, they must be separate peaks. (See (3).)
- Lowering tones (combination HL in one syllable) are forbidden as the first accent (see (1), (2)), and (4) but can appear as the second one (see (5)).
Allowed melodies
aá
á.a
a.á
aá.a
á.aá
(5) á.a.áa
Forbidden melodies
(1) áa.a
(2) áa.á
(3) á.á
(4) a.áa
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
That actually looks like something you could find in Subsahara Africa, Northern South Asia or in Papua. Looks like a great idea; naturalistic yet interesting.
Creyeditor
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
tʲ tˠ kʲ q
b dˠ dʲ gʲ ɢ
j ʁ
m nʲ nˠ
f sʲ sˠ ç~ɕ χ
lʲ lˠ
rʲ rˠ
y i u
ø e o
ä
Something more traditional
b dˠ dʲ gʲ ɢ
j ʁ
m nʲ nˠ
f sʲ sˠ ç~ɕ χ
lʲ lˠ
rʲ rˠ
y i u
ø e o
ä
Something more traditional
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Can you mention some languages of the areas whose phonology I could check if they are interesting?Creyeditor wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021 20:06 That actually looks like something you could find in Subsahara Africa, Northern South Asia or in Papua. Looks like a great idea; naturalistic yet interesting.
Does Northern South Asia mean Nepal or what?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Well the ban on adjacent high tones is found across Bantu. Kinande and Shona come to mind, which both have a similar ban and different repair strategies. There is a recent paper on Poko-Rawo tone by McPherson and Dryer which has a similar ban IIRC.
Anal and Tenyidie are languages of Northern India that have tone polarity which in effect means that two high tones are banned from occuring next to each other.
All of the above languages have a higher tonal density than your proposal. Chimwini is a language which is more pitch accent-like and still has a ban on adjacent high tones, IINM.
Here are some papers that should be publicly available (if not, just PM me and I will find a solution):
Dissertation on Kinande tone
A paper on the ban on adjacent high tones in different Bantu languages
Tenyidie tone paper
Poko-Rawo tone paper
This book includes a chapter on Chimwini intonation which includes a description of its tone system
None of these are identical to your system, but that's why it's interesting.
Anal and Tenyidie are languages of Northern India that have tone polarity which in effect means that two high tones are banned from occuring next to each other.
All of the above languages have a higher tonal density than your proposal. Chimwini is a language which is more pitch accent-like and still has a ban on adjacent high tones, IINM.
Here are some papers that should be publicly available (if not, just PM me and I will find a solution):
Dissertation on Kinande tone
A paper on the ban on adjacent high tones in different Bantu languages
Tenyidie tone paper
Poko-Rawo tone paper
This book includes a chapter on Chimwini intonation which includes a description of its tone system
None of these are identical to your system, but that's why it's interesting.
Creyeditor
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Nice! I will go them through.
Thank you!
Thank you!
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
A triangular system where u has been split in /ʉ/ and /o/.
i ʉ
o
ɛ ɑ
i ʉ
o
ɛ ɑ
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
/m n ŋ/
/p t k ʔ/
/b d g ʔ̞/
/ɸ s x h/
/ʋ ɾ l ɰ/
/i u a/
/pʔ bʔ̞ ɸh tʔ dʔ̞ sh kʔ gʔ̞ xh/ are the only syllable-initial clusters. (This is due to a "cross-manner archiphoneme.") Heterorganic clusters are preferred, but gemination is possible.
/p t k ʔ/
/b d g ʔ̞/
/ɸ s x h/
/ʋ ɾ l ɰ/
/i u a/
/pʔ bʔ̞ ɸh tʔ dʔ̞ sh kʔ gʔ̞ xh/ are the only syllable-initial clusters. (This is due to a "cross-manner archiphoneme.") Heterorganic clusters are preferred, but gemination is possible.
𖥑𖧨𖣫𖦺𖣦𖢋𖤼𖥃𖣔𖣋𖢅𖡹𖡨𖡶𖡦𖡧𖡚𖠨
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
i u (+ATR)
ɪ ʊ (-ATR)
ə (neutral)
ɐ (+ATR), ɑ (-ATR)
I vowel inventory
There is a vowel harmony with 3 +ATR vowels and 3 -ATR vowels. /ə/ is neutral. All vowels (including ə) can be long and/or stressed.
ɪ ʊ (-ATR)
ə (neutral)
ɐ (+ATR), ɑ (-ATR)
I vowel inventory
There is a vowel harmony with 3 +ATR vowels and 3 -ATR vowels. /ə/ is neutral. All vowels (including ə) can be long and/or stressed.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Interesting /ə/ is usually [+ATR] but if there are two schwa vowels, one is often special. So, it still looks naturalistic.
Creyeditor
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I thought it is quite random which vowels happen to be outside the harmony. But allophonically, it is possible that /ə/ has a -ATR counterpart.Creyeditor wrote: ↑26 Dec 2021 21:21 Interesting /ə/ is usually [+ATR] but if there are two schwa vowels, one is often special. So, it still looks naturalistic.
I didn't actually know that /ə/ is +ATR. I haven't seen info how the 'normal' vowels are categorized for it.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I read DeLancey's articles on Old and Lhasa Tibetan in Routledge's "The Sino-Tibetan Languages" and got interested. I also find Gach's Lkal sik interesting.
The structure of most words: D.C1GVC2
(Sesquisyllabic) D:
b d g
m n ŋ
l r
C1:
pʰ tʰ t͡s kʰ (qʰ)
p t k q
s ɬ
m n
l r
V: (imitating Mandarin)
i u
ə
ɐ
C1:
p t k q
s ɬ
m n ŋ
l r
Probably no tone, but a distinctive phonation (breathy or creaky voice).
The structure of most words: D.C1GVC2
(Sesquisyllabic) D:
b d g
m n ŋ
l r
C1:
pʰ tʰ t͡s kʰ (qʰ)
p t k q
s ɬ
m n
l r
V: (imitating Mandarin)
i u
ə
ɐ
C1:
p t k q
s ɬ
m n ŋ
l r
Probably no tone, but a distinctive phonation (breathy or creaky voice).
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
By convention, [+ATR] vowels are transcribed with the symbols for tense vowels, i.e. /i u e o/, and [-ATR] with the symbols for lax vowels /ɪ ʊ ɛ ɔ a/. The [+ATR] counterpart of /a/ however is acoustically (almost) identical to a schwa and thus by convention transcribed as such.Omzinesý wrote: ↑29 Dec 2021 17:53I thought it is quite random which vowels happen to be outside the harmony. But allophonically, it is possible that /ə/ has a -ATR counterpart.Creyeditor wrote: ↑26 Dec 2021 21:21 Interesting /ə/ is usually [+ATR] but if there are two schwa vowels, one is often special. So, it still looks naturalistic.
I didn't actually know that /ə/ is +ATR. I haven't seen info how the 'normal' vowels are categorized for it.
Gaps are relatively systematic. The most common exceptional vowels by far are /a/ (or /ɪ ʊ/ or both) for [-ATR] vowels and /e o/ for [+ATR] vowels. /i u/ or /ɛ ɔ/ are relatively rare as exceptions to ATR harmony.
Creyeditor
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Thank you for your answer.Creyeditor wrote: ↑29 Dec 2021 22:36By convention, [+ATR] vowels are transcribed with the symbols for tense vowels, i.e. /i u e o/, and [-ATR] with the symbols for lax vowels /ɪ ʊ ɛ ɔ a/. The [+ATR] counterpart of /a/ however is acoustically (almost) identical to a schwa and thus by convention transcribed as such.Omzinesý wrote: ↑29 Dec 2021 17:53I thought it is quite random which vowels happen to be outside the harmony. But allophonically, it is possible that /ə/ has a -ATR counterpart.Creyeditor wrote: ↑26 Dec 2021 21:21 Interesting /ə/ is usually [+ATR] but if there are two schwa vowels, one is often special. So, it still looks naturalistic.
I didn't actually know that /ə/ is +ATR. I haven't seen info how the 'normal' vowels are categorized for it.
Gaps are relatively systematic. The most common exceptional vowels by far are /a/ (or /ɪ ʊ/ or both) for [-ATR] vowels and /e o/ for [+ATR] vowels. /i u/ or /ɛ ɔ/ are relatively rare as exceptions to ATR harmony.
I don't still quit understand but maybe I know a bit more.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
A vowel inventory:
V: /ɪ ʊ ɐ/
ʲV: /i y ɛ/
ˤV: /ə o ɑ/
V: /ɪ ʊ ɐ/
ʲV: /i y ɛ/
ˤV: /ə o ɑ/
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
I accidentally saw the old speedlanging thread and had thought it to be new. Quickly popped out an inventory, and then realized it was a very old thread. So here's the inventory:
/i e æ/
/β̞ ɹ/
/n/
/p t k b d g/
/s x v ð ɦ/
divided into the basic sets
C = /p t k b d g v ð ɦ/
S = /s x n/
N = /n/
V = /β̞ ɹ i e æ/
with the structure
[(s)C/S]V(V)(N)
Note that the syllabic forms of /β̞ ɹ/ are [ɯ~u ɝ], the latter realization ahead of /k g/, post nuclear /β̞/ is realized as the rounding of the previous vowels /i e æ/ to [y ø ɔ]. The diphthong /β̞ɹ/ does not occur. All other diphthongs are rising. /s/ is typically voiced [z] before voiced consonants. Long vowels and geminates are otherwise forbidden.
Here's a bit of cleaned up Awkwords result, and it's phonetic result
/sgestin sβ̞ xeβ̞niæn xeæ sæ tɹxɹnsdæ gɹæxi senstæi texeæ næn ðieni xβ̞en sdæ xænɦi nensɦiβ̞n næ neæ sbi sixβ̞ sβ̞æstβ̞ sɦɹ neβ̞nxeæn xβ̞ xβ̞ne sdβ̞neɹ bæ si senβ̞ nisæn xæxβ̞ skesi nexe nixɹe nesɦβ̞ nɹe xi pæsvæ gɹsvin stβ̞n xβ̞eniβ̞ xɹnsvie speæsbɹi ninxeβ̞ sɦinɹ stixæβ̞ nine skæi sæ skβ̞e svinβ̞i kɹinte sgisɹn sβ̞nkɹ tibei nenxæn sænsæβ̞ sgβ̞ næigɹ skenɹkin spien sɹnkæɹ gi xβ̞ixiæn sen seæxen sveɹnðæ sβ̞eskɹgβ̞ xæβ̞ se/
[zgestin sɯ xøni̯æn xe̯æ sæ tɝxɝnzdæ gɹæxi senstæ̯i texe̯æ næn ði̯eni xβ̞en zdæ xænɦi nenzɦyn næ ne̯æ zbi sixɯ sβ̞æstɯ zɦɝ nønxe̯æn xɯ xɯne zdɯneɹ bæ si senɯ nisæn xæxɯ skesi nexe nixɹe nezɦɯ nɹe xi pæzvæ gɝzvin stɯn xβ̞eny xɝnzvi̯e spe̯æzbɹi ninxø zɦinɝ stixɔ nine skæ̯i sæ skβ̞e zvinβ̞i kɹinte zgisɝn sɯnkɝ tibe̯i nenxæn sænsɔ zgu næ̯igɝ skenɝkin spi̯en sɝnkæɹ gi xβ̞ixi̯æn sen se̯æxen zveɹnðæ sβ̞eskɝgu xɔ se]
/i e æ/
/β̞ ɹ/
/n/
/p t k b d g/
/s x v ð ɦ/
divided into the basic sets
C = /p t k b d g v ð ɦ/
S = /s x n/
N = /n/
V = /β̞ ɹ i e æ/
with the structure
[(s)C/S]V(V)(N)
Note that the syllabic forms of /β̞ ɹ/ are [ɯ~u ɝ], the latter realization ahead of /k g/, post nuclear /β̞/ is realized as the rounding of the previous vowels /i e æ/ to [y ø ɔ]. The diphthong /β̞ɹ/ does not occur. All other diphthongs are rising. /s/ is typically voiced [z] before voiced consonants. Long vowels and geminates are otherwise forbidden.
Here's a bit of cleaned up Awkwords result, and it's phonetic result
/sgestin sβ̞ xeβ̞niæn xeæ sæ tɹxɹnsdæ gɹæxi senstæi texeæ næn ðieni xβ̞en sdæ xænɦi nensɦiβ̞n næ neæ sbi sixβ̞ sβ̞æstβ̞ sɦɹ neβ̞nxeæn xβ̞ xβ̞ne sdβ̞neɹ bæ si senβ̞ nisæn xæxβ̞ skesi nexe nixɹe nesɦβ̞ nɹe xi pæsvæ gɹsvin stβ̞n xβ̞eniβ̞ xɹnsvie speæsbɹi ninxeβ̞ sɦinɹ stixæβ̞ nine skæi sæ skβ̞e svinβ̞i kɹinte sgisɹn sβ̞nkɹ tibei nenxæn sænsæβ̞ sgβ̞ næigɹ skenɹkin spien sɹnkæɹ gi xβ̞ixiæn sen seæxen sveɹnðæ sβ̞eskɹgβ̞ xæβ̞ se/
[zgestin sɯ xøni̯æn xe̯æ sæ tɝxɝnzdæ gɹæxi senstæ̯i texe̯æ næn ði̯eni xβ̞en zdæ xænɦi nenzɦyn næ ne̯æ zbi sixɯ sβ̞æstɯ zɦɝ nønxe̯æn xɯ xɯne zdɯneɹ bæ si senɯ nisæn xæxɯ skesi nexe nixɹe nezɦɯ nɹe xi pæzvæ gɝzvin stɯn xβ̞eny xɝnzvi̯e spe̯æzbɹi ninxø zɦinɝ stixɔ nine skæ̯i sæ skβ̞e zvinβ̞i kɹinte zgisɝn sɯnkɝ tibe̯i nenxæn sænsɔ zgu næ̯igɝ skenɝkin spi̯en sɝnkæɹ gi xβ̞ixi̯æn sen se̯æxen zveɹnðæ sβ̞eskɝgu xɔ se]
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
Something almost trivially small I just dreamt up and might develop more.
/m n ŋ/ (ŋ transcribed as ng)
/p t k/
/s/
/a i u/
(C)V only; /ti/ is forbidden and regularly becomes /si/.
No phonemic vowel length, but adjacent identical vowels may occur in hiatus, usually across morpheme boundaries.
Vowel harmony: /i/ and /u/ never occur in adjacent syllables (and probably not within the same word, even in non-adjacent syllables, though compounds may be an exception). High vowels undergo progressive assimilation: pitik + -un(u) becomes pitikini.
Paragogic vowels: Some roots and affixes end in consonants; when they occur word-finally, they are usually resolved by a paragogic high vowel (as seen above; -un word-finally carries a paragogic /u/ or /i/, depending on vowel harmony).
However, some morphemes undergo deletion of the final consonant: The common masculine noun suffix -at is realized as -a in pausa; before another affix or in certain sandhi contexts the /t/ is restored: underlying ngasik-at 'man' is ngasika; ngasik-at-un(u) 'men' is ngasikatini.
Such gender-marking suffixes are probably more tightly bound with the root than other affixes, and often result in vowel deletion rather than vowel hiatus when their affixation would result in a vowel sequence.
Stress is word-initial; secondary stress normally occurs on every other syllable. I'm not certain but there may be significant vowel reduction in internal unstressed syllables; perhaps ngasikatini is [ˈŋasəˌkatəni]
Lexical roots are most commonly of the shapes CVCVC, VCVC, CVCV, and VCVC.
Not to go too far into the morphology, but it is probably almost exclusively suffixing, with some prefix-like elements resulting from what were originally compounds.
/m n ŋ/ (ŋ transcribed as ng)
/p t k/
/s/
/a i u/
(C)V only; /ti/ is forbidden and regularly becomes /si/.
No phonemic vowel length, but adjacent identical vowels may occur in hiatus, usually across morpheme boundaries.
Vowel harmony: /i/ and /u/ never occur in adjacent syllables (and probably not within the same word, even in non-adjacent syllables, though compounds may be an exception). High vowels undergo progressive assimilation: pitik + -un(u) becomes pitikini.
Paragogic vowels: Some roots and affixes end in consonants; when they occur word-finally, they are usually resolved by a paragogic high vowel (as seen above; -un word-finally carries a paragogic /u/ or /i/, depending on vowel harmony).
However, some morphemes undergo deletion of the final consonant: The common masculine noun suffix -at is realized as -a in pausa; before another affix or in certain sandhi contexts the /t/ is restored: underlying ngasik-at 'man' is ngasika; ngasik-at-un(u) 'men' is ngasikatini.
Such gender-marking suffixes are probably more tightly bound with the root than other affixes, and often result in vowel deletion rather than vowel hiatus when their affixation would result in a vowel sequence.
Stress is word-initial; secondary stress normally occurs on every other syllable. I'm not certain but there may be significant vowel reduction in internal unstressed syllables; perhaps ngasikatini is [ˈŋasəˌkatəni]
Lexical roots are most commonly of the shapes CVCVC, VCVC, CVCV, and VCVC.
Not to go too far into the morphology, but it is probably almost exclusively suffixing, with some prefix-like elements resulting from what were originally compounds.
Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
p' t' k' q'
pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ
p t k q
f s θ ɬ χ[x]
ʋ ɹ l ʁ[ɰ]
m n
(C1)(C2)V(C3)
C1 plosive
C2 fricative or nasal
C3 voiceless
There could also be glottals ʔ and h that don't appear in clusters.
- The rule that there can be only one aspirate or ejective per word.
i ɨ u
a
pʰ tʰ kʰ qʰ
p t k q
f s θ ɬ χ[x]
ʋ ɹ l ʁ[ɰ]
m n
(C1)(C2)V(C3)
C1 plosive
C2 fricative or nasal
C3 voiceless
There could also be glottals ʔ and h that don't appear in clusters.
- The rule that there can be only one aspirate or ejective per word.
i ɨ u
a
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread
A language with palatalization, lenition and final hardening.
/m n/
/p b t d c k/
/pf bv ts dz kx/
/f v s z h/
/w l j/
/i a u/
Syllable structure is (C)V(C)
Intervocalically, obstruents become voiced, e.g.
/a/+/ta/-> [ada]
/a/+/tsa/->[adza]
/a/+/sa/->[aza]
Voiced plosives become affricates in the same context.
/a/+/da/->[adza]
Voiced afffricates become fricatives in the same context.
/a/+/dza/ -> [aza]
Voiced fricatives become approximants in the same context.
/a/+/za/ -> [ala]
Approximants delete in the same context.
/a/+/wa/->[a.a]
Palatizations changes coronal stops to affricates before /i/.
/t/+/ik/ -> [tsik]
/d/+/ik/ -> [dzik]
Palatalization also changes /k/ to [c].
/k/+/ik/->[cik]
Lenition and palatalization can cooccur.
/at/+/i/-> [asi]
/ad/+/i/->[azi]
Word-finally, obstruents become voiceless
/ad/ -> [at]
/adz/->[ats]
/az/ -> [as]
This means that a root /ad/ can have four different final consonant allophones.
/ad/ -> [at]
/ad/+/i/ -> [azi]
/ad/+/a/-> [adza]
/ad/+/na/-> [adna]
/m n/
/p b t d c k/
/pf bv ts dz kx/
/f v s z h/
/w l j/
/i a u/
Syllable structure is (C)V(C)
Intervocalically, obstruents become voiced, e.g.
/a/+/ta/-> [ada]
/a/+/tsa/->[adza]
/a/+/sa/->[aza]
Voiced plosives become affricates in the same context.
/a/+/da/->[adza]
Voiced afffricates become fricatives in the same context.
/a/+/dza/ -> [aza]
Voiced fricatives become approximants in the same context.
/a/+/za/ -> [ala]
Approximants delete in the same context.
/a/+/wa/->[a.a]
Palatizations changes coronal stops to affricates before /i/.
/t/+/ik/ -> [tsik]
/d/+/ik/ -> [dzik]
Palatalization also changes /k/ to [c].
/k/+/ik/->[cik]
Lenition and palatalization can cooccur.
/at/+/i/-> [asi]
/ad/+/i/->[azi]
Word-finally, obstruents become voiceless
/ad/ -> [at]
/adz/->[ats]
/az/ -> [as]
This means that a root /ad/ can have four different final consonant allophones.
/ad/ -> [at]
/ad/+/i/ -> [azi]
/ad/+/a/-> [adza]
/ad/+/na/-> [adna]
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
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Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics