(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Ahzoh
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Does this look like a naturalistic case system?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Ahzoh wrote: 25 Oct 2021 05:23 Does this look like a naturalistic case system?
Yes, of course, no reason to say no.

How are î and û pronounced?

Is governed state everything that is not construct state?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Omzinesý wrote: 25 Oct 2021 15:31
Ahzoh wrote: 25 Oct 2021 05:23 Does this look like a naturalistic case system?
Yes, of course, no reason to say no.

How are î and û pronounced?

Is governed state everything that is not construct state?
They are long vowels, but ones as a result of contraction/coalescence.

Governed state is the default, unpossessed state.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by teotlxixtli »

Are there any languages with affricates but no fricatives?
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Post by Creyeditor »

Mee (Ekari, Ekagi) has a velar lateral/uvular affricate sound and no fricatives. UPSID also mentions Andamanese and Panare with less exotic affricates and no fricatives.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by teotlxixtli »

Creyeditor wrote: 25 Oct 2021 21:40 Mee (Ekari, Ekagi) has a velar lateral/uvular affricate sound and no fricatives. UPSID also mentions Andamanese and Panare with less exotic affricates and no fricatives.
I was thinking of doing the following system, after challenging myself to have a particularly simple phonology:

m n ɲ (ny)
p t k
pʰ (ph) tʰ (th) kʰ (kh)
ts tɕ (ch)
j (y) w
ɾ (r)

i
e o
a

(C)V syllable structure
Vowels must be separated by at least one consonant
/w/ is inserted between vowels in compounds
Consonant clusters are forbidden
Penultimate stress
Trochaic rhythm type

Would such a system seem realistic enough?
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Post by Creyeditor »

I think it depends on how much allomorphy you add. Without it, it looks a bit strange, IMHO.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

I'm planning a accent system that has a contrast between mid/neutal tona or a rising tone on the stressed syllable, i.e. some words have stress accent and others have a tonal accent. Does that appear in natlangs or are they always either or?
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Post by Creyeditor »

Lithuanian pitch accent looks similar to what you propose. The neutral stress is often a bit falling in such languages, but I vaguely recall that this is not universal.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Omzinesý wrote: 06 Nov 2021 13:43 I'm planning a accent system that has a contrast between mid/neutal tona or a rising tone on the stressed syllable, i.e. some words have stress accent and others have a tonal accent. Does that appear in natlangs or are they always either or?
For most languages the main component of stress is pitch [citation needed]. So it’s not exclusive-or, is my guess.
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Post by Creyeditor »

Also Hyman's work on word prosody where he says all four possible combinations of tone and stress are found (at least).
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sequor »

Ahzoh wrote: 25 Oct 2021 16:15They are long vowels, but ones as a result of contraction/coalescence.

Governed state is the default, unpossessed state.
If you don't know already and it's useful to you, in Semitic linguistics the default state is called the "absolute state" generally...
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

Sequor wrote: 07 Nov 2021 15:07
Ahzoh wrote: 25 Oct 2021 16:15They are long vowels, but ones as a result of contraction/coalescence.

Governed state is the default, unpossessed state.
If you don't know already and it's useful to you, in Semitic linguistics the default state is called the "absolute state" generally...
I see the "governed state" and "absolute state" terms used interchangeably, on these boards and elsewhere, and so I do so as well. But I mostly go by Akkadiological terminology.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

eldin raigmore wrote: 06 Nov 2021 15:23
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Nov 2021 13:43 I'm planning a accent system that has a contrast between mid/neutal tona or a rising tone on the stressed syllable, i.e. some words have stress accent and others have a tonal accent. Does that appear in natlangs or are they always either or?
For most languages the main component of stress is pitch [citation needed]. So it’s not exclusive-or, is my guess.
Creyeditor wrote: 06 Nov 2021 15:22 Lithuanian pitch accent looks similar to what you propose. The neutral stress is often a bit falling in such languages, but I vaguely recall that this is not universal.
So, I guess I can make such a system.

I think long vowels usually have a slightly lowering tone. If stressed vowels are both short they could even have a sightly rising tone (the stress thing) and a sharply rising tone (the accent thing), but I think the language will not distinguish length.
Creyeditor wrote: 06 Nov 2021 15:25 Also Hyman's work on word prosody where he says all four possible combinations of tone and stress are found (at least).
What are they?
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Post by Pabappa »

i would analyze the Lithuanian system as á ~ áa ~ aá. Makes more sense that way and also explains why diphthongs can only take the rising or falling tones, never a simple high tone.

Since there's only one marked vowel in each word, it makes no difference if we think of it as a tone or a stress.

Kind of disappointing to see one of Europe's few tonal languages boil down to plain ol' stress, but I think it's pretty common across the world even in "tonal" languages to have a prominent syllable instead of them all behaving as equal partners.

Im curious about the word prosody study too, though.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

I think it depends on your definition of word stress. If a word stress is metrically conditioned prominence of a syllable only, Lithuanian is dificult to describe. If you allow reference to moras or vowels, it gets a bit easier. But tonal contrasts being restricted to a certain position happens in a lot of the more prototypical tonal languages e.g. in Bantu. I think it's easiest to say Lithuanian has both stress and tone. One syllable is metrically prominent and it can bear different tonal specifications with the mora being the tone bearing unit.

The four possible combinations are: both tone and tress, only tone, only stress, and neither. Here and here are links to two relevant papers. Hyman gives English as an example of a stress language and Yoruba as a tone language. But some languages such as French and Tamazight have been argued to have neither. Hyman agrees and adds languages such as Seneca, Fasu and Copala Trique as languages with both stress and tone. His actual typology is more complex, but similarly shows that these dimensions are independent of each other.

Hyman is sometimes a bit difficult to read, but his texts are generally very data driven, which is great for conlanging purposes IMHO. His typological database of tone languages is not publicly accesible unfortunately.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Creyeditor wrote: 09 Nov 2021 21:54 I think it depends on your definition of word stress. If a word stress is metrically conditioned prominence of a syllable only, Lithuanian is dificult to describe. If you allow reference to moras or vowels, it gets a bit easier. But tonal contrasts being restricted to a certain position happens in a lot of the more prototypical tonal languages e.g. in Bantu. I think it's easiest to say Lithuanian has both stress and tone. One syllable is metrically prominent and it can bear different tonal specifications with the mora being the tone bearing unit.

The four possible combinations are: both tone and tress, only tone, only stress, and neither. Here and here are links to two relevant papers. Hyman gives English as an example of a stress language and Yoruba as a tone language. But some languages such as French and Tamazight have been argued to have neither. Hyman agrees and adds languages such as Seneca, Fasu and Copala Trique as languages with both stress and tone. His actual typology is more complex, but similarly shows that these dimensions are independent of each other.

Hyman is sometimes a bit difficult to read, but his texts are generally very data driven, which is great for conlanging purposes IMHO. His typological database of tone languages is not publicly accesible unfortunately.
Those seem interesting. I have alse been wondering how "pitch accent languages" should be defined between stress and tone. I am quite busy ATM but I will surely have a better look at them ASAP.
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Post by VaptuantaDoi »

I've been toying with the idea of making a mixed language à la Media Lengua, i.e. morphological material from one language and lexical material from another. The lexical material will show some phonological assimilation, unlike Michif. The setting is gonna be somewhere in North America, with the morphology language being an a priori polylang, which has this inventory:
/t d k/
/t͡θ t͡ʃ k͡x/
/ɸ θ ʃ x/
/m n/

/ɛi̯ ɔu̯ eː ẽː oː õː ɛ ɔ ɐ aː ãː/
With productive syncope. I'm still unable to make up my mind about what the lexifier language should be. I want it to be something European, preferably from a group which could conceivably have settled America in the 16th or 17th centuries. A couple of possibilities are:
  • Basque
  • Scottish Gaelic
  • French
  • A minority romance language
Which one of these, or any other languages, do you think would be most interesting?
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Post by Titus Flavius »

Scottish Gaelic!
ω - near-close near-back unrounded vowel.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh »

How can I better describe how the accusative and instrumental case work in my language with respect to secundative languages, at the level of someone who is not familiar with linguistics?

So far I have it as this:
  • The accusative (ACC) case indicates the primary object of a verb, which may be the recipient of the action or an end goal ("Henry sees Sam", "Henry gave Sam a pencil", "John wrote to Mary"). It can also indicate the object of certain adpositions ("under the table").
  • The instrumental (INS) case indicates the secondary object of a verb, which may be the object or attribute given to something or the instrument or means by which the action is accomplished. ("Henry gave Sam a pencil", "She showers him with love", "They named their dog Frank").
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