(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nortaneous »

Üdj wrote: 31 Oct 2022 15:38 If I have a labiovelar series, would it be realistic to have /x͡ɸ/? I have not found it in any natlang.
If you mean labial-velar, I don't think it's attested to have a fricative that patterns with /kp gb/. If you mean labiovelar, having an /xʷ/ that patterns with /kʷ gʷ/ is.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Üdj wrote: 31 Oct 2022 21:18
Omzinesý wrote: 31 Oct 2022 16:51
Üdj wrote: 31 Oct 2022 15:38 If I have a labiovelar series, would it be realistic to have /x͡ɸ/? I have not found it in any natlang.
Look at ʍ. English has it.
I thought /ʍ/ was /w̥/ or /xʷ/.
Interesting
The Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless ... _fricative about ʍ seems to say that nobody really knows if ʍ in languages that have it really is labio-velar, probably not. It still has a symbol. Strange.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 01 Nov 2022 14:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

This is no fact question. Yesterday, I just started thinking about a morphoohonemic system with an ATR harmony and a Sanskrit-style ablaut system with grades.

Code: Select all

	zero	short	long 
+ATR	i	e	əi
-ATR	ɪ 	ɛ 	aɪ

+ATR	u 	o 	əu
-ATR	ʊ 	ɔ 	aʊ

+ATR	∅ 	ə 	ə:
-ATR	∅ 	a 	a:
But this is not an interesting system. Every grade just has a parallel realization in both +ATR words and -ATR words. How would ATR harmony and ablaut interact (have very different realizations based on ATR or merge somewhere, or something)?
Just asking if somebody happens to get nice ideas based on the starting point
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

You could have a look at Nilotic languages. In these languages ATR is often morphologized in an Ablaut kind of way. You could have a system where there is a short ATR and a short RTR grade. This might neutralize ATR distinctions on roots, or it might not, yielding mid vowels as a repair for example. These systems are really interesting. They might also involve stuff that is called grades, IINM.
Edit: Vowel quality alternation in Dinka verb derivation: The Agar variety by Torben Andersen seems to be freely available.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn »

Üdj wrote: 31 Oct 2022 15:38 If I have a labiovelar series, would it be realistic to have /x͡ɸ/? I have not found it in any natlang.
I wouldn't bat an eye to some form of /xʷ/ [x͡ɸ] patterning along with /kp gb/
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote: 01 Nov 2022 14:18 This is no fact question. Yesterday, I just started thinking about a morphoohonemic system with an ATR harmony and a Sanskrit-style ablaut system with grades.

Code: Select all

	zero	short	long 
+ATR	i	e	əi
-ATR	ɪ 	ɛ 	aɪ

+ATR	u 	o 	əu
-ATR	ʊ 	ɔ 	aʊ

	∅ 	ə 	a:
But this is not an interesting system. Every grade just has a parallel realization in both +ATR words and -ATR words. How would ATR harmony and ablaut interact (have very different realizations based on ATR or merge somewhere, or something)?
Just asking if somebody happens to get nice ideas based on the starting point
Probably I could just merge the last set with low vowels.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

My idea on what I wrote before [:)]

Code: Select all

	zero-ATRshort+ATlong+ATR
+ATR	ɪ	i	əi
-ATR	ɪ 	i 	ai
+ATR	ɛ	e	ei
-ATR	ɛ 	e 	ɛi
+ATR	ʊ	u	əu
-ATR	ʊ 	u 	au
+ATR	ɔ 	o 	ou
-ATR	ɔ 	o 	ɔu


	∅ 	ə 	a:
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Arayaz »

I'm making a language family where the proto-language has retroflex consonants. However, I do not like retroflexes. Would it be realistic to destroy the retroflexes in one of the descendants? How would it happen?
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Post by Creyeditor »

Dewpends on the rest of the phonology of the proto-language. In general, retroflex consonants often merge with alveolars.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Knox Adjacent »

Sibilant retroflexes could go post-alveolar or alveolo-palatal.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Creyeditor wrote: 04 Nov 2022 13:01 My idea on what I wrote before [:)]

Code: Select all

	zero-ATRshort+ATlong+ATR
+ATR	ɪ	i	əi
-ATR	ɪ 	i 	ai
+ATR	ɛ	e	ei
-ATR	ɛ 	e 	ɛi
+ATR	ʊ	u	əu
-ATR	ʊ 	u 	au
+ATR	ɔ 	o 	ou
-ATR	ɔ 	o 	ɔu


	∅ 	ə 	a:
An interesting system. I think its not quite what I was after. There ATR is a grade, I want a system where ATR affects the grades, I think.
Creyeditor wrote: 01 Nov 2022 14:49 You could have a look at Nilotic languages. In these languages ATR is often morphologized in an Ablaut kind of way. You could have a system where there is a short ATR and a short RTR grade. This might neutralize ATR distinctions on roots, or it might not, yielding mid vowels as a repair for example. These systems are really interesting. They might also involve stuff that is called grades, IINM.
Edit: Vowel quality alternation in Dinka verb derivation: The Agar variety by Torben Andersen seems to be freely available.
Nilotic languages are nice. If a conlanger made Dinka, I'd say they has overused suprasegmental features and packed too much semantics in too little amount of phonetic material, but still Dinka exists.
I think that paper didn't help me with this question. Dinka doesn't have an ATR harmony. But I have been looking for a paper about Dinka morphology and that's it.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus »

The obvious thing to do is just to merge some vowels, or at least conditionally merge them.


More complicated things would probably involve asking why there is ATR harmony and why there is ablaut. Then one could directly affect the other.

For instance, a vowel only present in some ablaut forms could trigger ATR harmony in other vowels in the word.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Omzinesý wrote: 06 Nov 2022 11:58
Creyeditor wrote: 04 Nov 2022 13:01 My idea on what I wrote before [:)]

Code: Select all

	zero-ATRshort+ATlong+ATR
+ATR	ɪ	i	əi
-ATR	ɪ 	i 	ai
+ATR	ɛ	e	ei
-ATR	ɛ 	e 	ɛi
+ATR	ʊ	u	əu
-ATR	ʊ 	u 	au
+ATR	ɔ 	o 	ou
-ATR	ɔ 	o 	ɔu


	∅ 	ə 	a:
An interesting system. I think its not quite what I was after. There ATR is a grade, I want a system where ATR affects the grades, I think.
I don't know of any language that has Ablaut and ATR vowel harmony that are independent of each other. In all systems that I have seen ATR is in some way part of the Ablaut, too.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Creyeditor wrote: 07 Nov 2022 10:33
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Nov 2022 11:58
Creyeditor wrote: 04 Nov 2022 13:01 [...]
An interesting system. I think its not quite what I was after. There ATR is a grade, I want a system where ATR affects the grades, I think.
I don't know of any language that has Ablaut and ATR vowel harmony that are independent of each other. In all systems that I have seen ATR is in some way part of the Ablaut, too.
Very possible.
I just find it too simple to just switch the ATR value morphologically. But Somali at least has auch an ablaut for a verb form I have forgotten.

But thank you. I once again learned new.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

I got rid of same subject / different subject marking in Dleesoop. It doesn't have relative pronouns either. How does it differentiate relative clauses (whose topic is the antecedent) and coordinated clauses who share a topic. Could there be some prosodic element like a pause? Or should Dleesoop just have conjunctions, 'and', between coordinated clauses?


Dlo', weke le'-nawe, heepa le'-top
person, buy cat, chase dog
'A person bought a cat [that chased a dog].'
or
'A person [bought a cat and chased a dog].'
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn »

Omzinesý wrote: 08 Nov 2022 22:47 I got rid of same subject / different subject marking in Dleesoop. It doesn't have relative pronouns either. How does it differentiate relative clauses (whose topic is the antecedent) and coordinated clauses who share a topic. Could there be some prosodic element like a pause? Or should Dleesoop just have conjunctions, 'and', between coordinated clauses?


Dlo', weke le'-nawe, heepa le'-top
person, buy cat, chase dog
'A person bought a cat [that chased a dog].'
or
'A person [bought a cat and chased a dog].'
The easy answer is add a relativizer conjunction/clitic/what have you, but with a more thorough gloss i could maybe have other ideas. I do have a lang where some of those types of things are just ambiguous though, you could do just prosody or something like that if you wanted IMO.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sequor »

Omzinesý wrote: 08 Nov 2022 22:47 I got rid of same subject / different subject marking in Dleesoop. It doesn't have relative pronouns either. How does it differentiate relative clauses (whose topic is the antecedent) and coordinated clauses who share a topic. Could there be some prosodic element like a pause? Or should Dleesoop just have conjunctions, 'and', between coordinated clauses?


Dlo', weke le'-nawe, heepa le'-top
person, buy cat, chase dog
'A person bought a cat [that chased a dog].'
or
'A person [bought a cat and chased a dog].'
Personally I'd be happy leaving it as it is, to context. I mean, even in this artificial contextless example I don't imagine a person chasing after a dog much. (I guess it could make sense if it's a small dog running around that they need to take to a vet?) I think I once read of a spoken minority language where, frequently, ideas are expressed as many small clauses (Dixon's Jarawara grammar maybe?), but I don't remember if it was really that ambiguous formally, but I think it was. A pause could sure be helpful to clarify there's a coordination though.

You could also add a subject pronoun, or use some kind of verbal marker. "Person, buy cat, it (had) chased dog". This is how demonstratives often get to become relative pronouns after all...
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

loglorn wrote: 10 Nov 2022 02:03
Omzinesý wrote: 08 Nov 2022 22:47 I got rid of same subject / different subject marking in Dleesoop. It doesn't have relative pronouns either. How does it differentiate relative clauses (whose topic is the antecedent) and coordinated clauses who share a topic. Could there be some prosodic element like a pause? Or should Dleesoop just have conjunctions, 'and', between coordinated clauses?


Dlo', weke le'-nawe, heepa le'-top
person, buy cat, chase dog
'A person bought a cat [that chased a dog].'
or
'A person [bought a cat and chased a dog].'
The easy answer is add a relativizer conjunction/clitic/what have you, but with a more thorough gloss i could maybe have other ideas. I do have a lang where some of those types of things are just ambiguous though, you could do just prosody or something like that if you wanted IMO.
Sequor wrote: 10 Nov 2022 20:40
Omzinesý wrote: 08 Nov 2022 22:47 ...
Personally I'd be happy leaving it as it is, to context. I mean, even in this artificial contextless example I don't imagine a person chasing after a dog much. (I guess it could make sense if it's a small dog running around that they need to take to a vet?) I think I once read of a spoken minority language where, frequently, ideas are expressed as many small clauses (Dixon's Jarawara grammar maybe?), but I don't remember if it was really that ambiguous formally, but I think it was. A pause could sure be helpful to clarify there's a coordination though.

You could also add a subject pronoun, or use some kind of verbal marker. "Person, buy cat, it (had) chased dog". This is how demonstratives often get to become relative pronouns after all...
I think I'll rather formally code coordination than relative clauses. There is a nice continuum between compounding - nominal modifiers with prepositions - relative clauses, and I don't wanna break it.

Inferring from the context and prosody interact much, and in ambiguous contexts prosody is emphasized more, I think.

If there is a pause, would it appear before the second coordinated clause but not before the relative clause?

Thank you both!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by tokibuni »

I need to know how to handle "want" clauses for my conlang.

In English, we can say "The girl wanted (to possess/have) a bird" AND "The horse wanted to eat a carrot." In a language that has its own predicate possessive construct using a copula, and a verb for "want," how would the first case be handled? It's entirely possible I don't understand something here, but I'll give some examples below of what I'm thinking:

A standard "want" clause. Takes the verb of desire as an infinitive.

The horse wants to eat a carrot
kutu ibasitu nnukvu äitli tak
want:impfv-fut eat:indef-fut Nom-Def horse carrot

A standard predicate possessive construction.

I have an egg
olo kak malatäs
COP:be-at egg Loc-1sg

The two versions of a "want" clause. I'm not sure which would be more logical. The 1st seems incorrect to me, the second seems more likely to me.

The girl wanted a bird
is ku nnukvu sa sifa
pfv:pst want Nom-Def girl bird


The girl wanted a bird
is ku olofa sifa malavu sa
pfv:pst want COP:be-at-pst bird Loc-Def girl

On a separate note, I've been looking for resources on derivational morphology (namely things like turning a noun into an abstract noun, or a verb into a person [teach > teacher]). If anyone could point me to a good resource for that cross-linguistically, I'd be appreciative.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

tokibuni wrote: 12 Nov 2022 04:27 The girl wanted a bird
is ku nnukvu sa sifa
pfv:pst want Nom-Def girl bird
That is how Finnish (and all languages I know having locative possession constructions) does it.

Tytö-llä on lintu.
girl-ADESS is bird[NOM]
'The girl has a bird.'

Tyttö haluaa linnu-n.
girl[NOM] wants bird-ACC
'The girl wants a bird.'

If you want to force it have a verb, you need to have subordinate clause.

Tyttö haluaa, että häne-llä on lintu.
girl[NOM] wants that GS3-ADESS is bird[NOM]


tokibuni wrote: 12 Nov 2022 04:27 The girl wanted a bird
is ku olofa sifa malavu sa
pfv:pst want COP:be-at-pst bird Loc-Def girl
My first idea is that it means 'The bird wants to be at the girl.'

Finnish with an unusual word order "Haluaa olla lintu tytöllä." would still mean it.

But 'Want girl exist bird', i.e. dropping the locative marker when subordinated, would do. I think that is what many Asian languages do.

It's btw interesting that Swedish usually uses 'have' while English doesn't.

Flickan vill ha en fågel.
girl.DEF wants have.INF INDEF bird
'The girl wants a bird.'

I have thought abaut a conlang that lacks an infinite 'to be' but has an infinitive 'to have'. 'girl want bird' would thus mean 'The girl wants to be a bird.'
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