(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku »

Titus Flavius wrote: 13 Jun 2021 12:08 Pronounce it yourself! It's your conlang and you know how to pronounce it, and IPA synthezators are either bad or expensive :)
Are you implying that there are IPA synthezizers? I've been looking for that for ages. Can you provide some names? I'd gladly pay money for a tool that works properly in reading out loud IPA.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote: 06 Jul 2021 11:48
Vlürch wrote: 05 Jul 2021 20:47
eldin raigmore wrote: 03 Jul 2021 14:36A single word cannot contain two consecutive stressed syllables.
Really? In Finnish the difference between eg. the tule in hän ei tule ("he/she doesn't come") and tule! ("come!") is /ˈtule/ and /ˈtuˈle/ AFAIK, or at least that's what it sounds like and I'm sure I've read it described that way. What the actual difference between stressed and unstressed syllables even is in Finnish is something no one can agree on, though, so... hmm...
I think it's not stressing. Commands surely have a different intonation compared to affirmatives, but if you have Hän ei tule tänne. and Tule tänne!, both tule are similar in the word level. Most dialects have the final gemination in the end of both.
I actually just read https://courses.helsinki.fi/sites/defau ... antity.pdf that Estonian can well have a secondary stress following the main stress, if the first syllable having the main stress is "over-long" and can thus form a foot itself.
[sú:][lìsi] 'oral PL.PART'
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Post by eldin raigmore »

Omzinesý wrote: 08 Jul 2021 18:14 I actually just read https://courses.helsinki.fi/sites/defau ... antity.pdf that Estonian can well have a secondary stress following the main stress, if the first syllable having the main stress is "over-long" and can thus form a foot itself.
[sú:][lìsi] 'oral PL.PART'
I believe the constraint against stress collisions is violable if one of the two syllables is at least trimoraic (superheavy) and the other is at least bimoraic (heavy).
But Linguofranco indicated he was a beginner, and I didn’t think such fine points were worth the risk of confusing him.
I could have been wrong in two ways; maybe he’s not a beginner, and maybe I wouldn’t have confused him.

I though we were talking just about the distribution of stress over the syllables of one word.
Salmoneus was talking about the distribution of stress over an entire multi-word tagma; a phrase or clause or sentence.
At that level English has at least four degrees of stress.
But I know of no language that has more than three degrees of syllable-stress in the same word; viz. unstressed, secondarily stressed, or primarily stressed.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus »

eldin raigmore wrote: 08 Jul 2021 21:59
Omzinesý wrote: 08 Jul 2021 18:14 I actually just read https://courses.helsinki.fi/sites/defau ... antity.pdf that Estonian can well have a secondary stress following the main stress, if the first syllable having the main stress is "over-long" and can thus form a foot itself.
[sú:][lìsi] 'oral PL.PART'
I believe the constraint against stress collisions is violable if one of the two syllables is at least trimoraic (superheavy) and the other is at least bimoraic (heavy).
But the counterexample you're quoting is still a counterexample even to that, as the secondary stress falls on a light syllable...
I though we were talking just about the distribution of stress over the syllables of one word.
Salmoneus was talking about the distribution of stress over an entire multi-word tagma; a phrase or clause or sentence.
No, I wasn't. All my counterexamples were single words.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Originally, Ongshv́'s lamial/apical vowels were to be treated as follows: non-palatal, non-retroflex affricates/fricatives (A/F) appearing before all, palatal A/F only appearing before front, and retroflex A/F only appearing before back. But, I just started doubting lamail/apical vowels appearing after palatals and retroflexes while noting it. Can lamail/apical vowels appear after palatals and retroflexes?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ixals »

Is it possible for a lang to reassign stress to the last syllable of a root?
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Post by Omzinesý »

ixals wrote: 09 Jul 2021 20:46 Is it possible for a lang to reassign stress to the last syllable of a root?
Reassign?
Do you mean in some phonolocal process?
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Post by Omzinesý »

My Noiraka has this system of obligatory epistemic particles.

Code: Select all

He	Sensory Evidence 
Pa	Inferred Evidence 
?	Reportative 
Si	Egophoric certain (I know cos I did it.)(also used in narratives with an all-knowing storyteller) 
?	Egophoric uncertain (I think) 
Ta	Fact (Everybody generally knows, so no need for evidence.) 
?	Imagined (No need for evidence) 
 
Negation could be combined with Epistemic Particle. There could be some defectiveness. It is not so important how you know that somebody does not do something. Not doing cannot even be perceived, really.

So, in the corresponding negative paradigm, which Epistemic particles should be merged?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by teotlxixtli »

Are there any documented languages with a syllabic ŋ?
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Post by Creyeditor »

German has it in <sagen> [za:.gŋ]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Can apical vowels appear after palatals and/or retroflexes?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 »

ixals wrote: 09 Jul 2021 20:46 Is it possible for a lang to reassign stress to the last syllable of a root?
Spanish verbs have joined the chat 👀 In the singular present indicative, sound changes have largely changed roots stressed on the penult to be stressed on the ult. That trend has been extended so that verbs with penultimate root stress in Latin get ultimate root stress when borrowed into Spanish ( :lat: clārificō -> :esp: clarifico; pacífico "pacific" but pacifico "I pacify").
Omzinesý wrote: 10 Jul 2021 11:37So, in the corresponding negative paradigm, which Epistemic particles should be merged?
Reportative and fact? Inferred and egophoric uncertain?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by cedh »

Creyeditor wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:36
teotlxixtli wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:12 Are there any documented languages with a syllabic ŋ?
German has it in <sagen> [za:.gŋ]
It's not phonemically a syllabic /ŋ/ though, it's an allophone of word-final /ən/~/n/ after velar consonants (also after /k ŋ/ as in <Balken> [bal.kŋ], <singen> [zɪŋ.ŋ], but cf. after non-velars: <Kasten> [kas.tn], <leben> [le:.bm]).
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Post by Creyeditor »

Right, some people even argue that German does not have a phonemic velar nasal at all, deriving it from /ng/ in all positions.
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Post by Nortaneous »

teotlxixtli wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:12 Are there any documented languages with a syllabic ŋ?
yes, Cantonese
yangfiretiger121 wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:52 Can apical vowels appear after palatals and/or retroflexes?
that depends on what you mean by "apical vowels". fricated vowels can appear after palatals and retroflexes, yes - Nuosu allows the syllables /tsɿ tʂɿ tɕɿ/ - but they typically take on the quality of the preceding consonant, so [tsɿ tʂʅ] and then something that I guess you could write [tɕɿᶽ]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus »

cedh wrote: 10 Jul 2021 20:34
Creyeditor wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:36
teotlxixtli wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:12 Are there any documented languages with a syllabic ŋ?
German has it in <sagen> [za:.gŋ]
It's not phonemically a syllabic /ŋ/ though, it's an allophone of word-final /ən/~/n/ after velar consonants (also after /k ŋ/ as in <Balken> [bal.kŋ], <singen> [zɪŋ.ŋ], but cf. after non-velars: <Kasten> [kas.tn], <leben> [le:.bm]).
Asking for *cough* a friend *cough*, how weird would it sound if someone had [n] instead of [N] here? [particularly [zIN.N], I can't even conceive of how to pronounce that!]

Also: woah, unexpected syllabification. I'd always assumed it would be /kast.n/ and /leb.n/ as it would be in English. Again, a real tongue-twister you have there!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Okay. That’s what I meant my language has [ᵫ(ː)] (front rounded) and the back rounded vowel. Would they merge after, say, [ʨ]?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Salmoneus wrote: 10 Jul 2021 21:49
cedh wrote: 10 Jul 2021 20:34
Creyeditor wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:36
teotlxixtli wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:12 Are there any documented languages with a syllabic ŋ?
German has it in <sagen> [za:.gŋ]
It's not phonemically a syllabic /ŋ/ though, it's an allophone of word-final /ən/~/n/ after velar consonants (also after /k ŋ/ as in <Balken> [bal.kŋ], <singen> [zɪŋ.ŋ], but cf. after non-velars: <Kasten> [kas.tn], <leben> [le:.bm]).
Asking for *cough* a friend *cough*, how weird would it sound if someone had [n] instead of [N] here? [particularly [zIN.N], I can't even conceive of how to pronounce that!]

Also: woah, unexpected syllabification. I'd always assumed it would be /kast.n/ and /leb.n/ as it would be in English. Again, a real tongue-twister you have there!
I actually say [zIN], even though other people say it should be [zIN:] if monosyllabic. That also means <gähnen> 'yawn' and <gehen> 'go' are both [ge:n]. For me [zINn] is way more difficult to pronounce, independent of syllabification, even though it doesn't sound wrong. [zI.N@n] on the other hand sounds like a news anchor to me.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by cedh »

Creyeditor wrote: 11 Jul 2021 10:34
Salmoneus wrote: 10 Jul 2021 21:49 Also: woah, unexpected syllabification. I'd always assumed it would be /kast.n/ and /leb.n/ as it would be in English. Again, a real tongue-twister you have there!
I actually say [zIN], even though other people say it should be [zIN:] if monosyllabic. That also means <gähnen> 'yawn' and <gehen> 'go' are both [ge:n]. For me [zINn] is way more difficult to pronounce, independent of syllabification, even though it doesn't sound wrong. [zI.N@n] on the other hand sounds like a news anchor to me.
In [zɪŋ.ŋ] there is no break between the two instances of [ŋ], it's a single long consonant, but there's a (weak) prosodic contour that's typical for disyllabic feet (roughly ↘↗ in terms of volume and →↘ in terms of pitch).

As you'd expect, there's some variation. For me, <gähnen> is [ɡɛ:n.n] (two syllables, with a more open vowel, a long nasal, and the abovementioned prosodic contour) and <gehen> is typically [ɡe:n] (one syllable, with a short nasal and no contour, or occasionally just (→)↘ in terms of pitch).

Regarding syllabification, the main argument for moving the consonant to the onset of the next syllable is that voiced obstruents stay voiced for most speakers; in coda position they would be expected to devoice (e.g. <sagbar> [za:k.b̥ɐ], <leblos> [le:p.los])
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa »

teotlxixtli wrote: 10 Jul 2021 16:12 Are there any documented languages with a syllabic ŋ?
the cantonese surname https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng_(name) also exists. they also have a syllabic /m/, and, though i havent looked, i imagine there's probably a syllabic /n/ too.
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