(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

I have the following phoneme inventory (inspired by Ket):

t k q
b d
f s h
m n
l r j

y i u
ø e o
ä

({t k q b d f s h})({m n l r j}){y i u ø e o ä}({s h N})

What morpho-phonological alternations could appear between the consonant phonemes? There is no palatalization, which is the usual suspect for morpho-phonological alternations.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 16:20 I have the following phoneme inventory (inspired by Ket):

t k q
b d
f s h
m n
l r j

y i u
ø e o
ä

({t k q b d f s h})({m n l r j}){y i u ø e o ä}({s h N})

What morpho-phonological alternations could appear between the consonant phonemes? There is no palatalization, which is the usual suspect for morpho-phonological alternations.
Aside from voicing assimilation, e.g. /tm/ > [tm̥] or /s.d/> [z.d], you could maybe have some form of consonant gradation, e.g. /tran.ta/ > /tran.das/. Or maybe even have consonant gradation not be so obviously conditioned by assuming that, say, syllables used to also be able to end in /ʔ/ (which surfaced as gemination in the plosives), which were eventually just dropped, so you get something like /tran.ta/ > /tran.ta/ vs. /tran.ta-ʔ/ > /tran.da/. You could also use this to have exceptions to consonant gradation, e.g. /flaʔ.ta/ > /flat.ta/ > /fla.ta/ vs. /flaʔ.ta-ʔ/ > /flat.ta-ʔ/> /fla.ta-ʔ/ > /fla.ta/, and that way. If you also had /ʔ/ between vowels, and was then dropped (and vowel hiatus was resolved in such a way as to result in monophthongs), then you could get "inverse" consonant gradation to, like. /se.teʔ/ > /se.de/ vs. /se.te.ʔ-Vh/ > /se.teh/. So you end up with two "grades", a strong and a weak one and, for the most part, the strong one would shift to the weak one when the syllable closes, but there would also be conditions where this shift either doesn't happen, or happens in reverse (but much more rarely)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

sangi39 wrote: 06 Sep 2022 19:55
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 16:20 I have the following phoneme inventory (inspired by Ket):

t k q
b d
f s h
m n
l r j

y i u
ø e o
ä

({t k q b d f s h})({m n l r j}){y i u ø e o ä}({s h N})

What morpho-phonological alternations could appear between the consonant phonemes? There is no palatalization, which is the usual suspect for morpho-phonological alternations.
Aside from voicing assimilation, e.g. /tm/ > [tm̥] or /s.d/> [z.d], you could maybe have some form of consonant gradation, e.g. /tran.ta/ > /tran.das/. Or maybe even have consonant gradation not be so obviously conditioned by assuming that, say, syllables used to also be able to end in /ʔ/ (which surfaced as gemination in the plosives), which were eventually just dropped, so you get something like /tran.ta/ > /tran.ta/ vs. /tran.ta-ʔ/ > /tran.da/. You could also use this to have exceptions to consonant gradation, e.g. /flaʔ.ta/ > /flat.ta/ > /fla.ta/ vs. /flaʔ.ta-ʔ/ > /flat.ta-ʔ/> /fla.ta-ʔ/ > /fla.ta/, and that way. If you also had /ʔ/ between vowels, and was then dropped (and vowel hiatus was resolved in such a way as to result in monophthongs), then you could get "inverse" consonant gradation to, like. /se.teʔ/ > /se.de/ vs. /se.te.ʔ-Vh/ > /se.teh/. So you end up with two "grades", a strong and a weak one and, for the most part, the strong one would shift to the weak one when the syllable closes, but there would also be conditions where this shift either doesn't happen, or happens in reverse (but much more rarely)
Gradation is of course one thing. There is only one voiced-voiceless pair, that of /d/ and /t/. Of coerce /f/ can be historically *p and thus alternate with /b/.
I just somewhat try avoiding Finnishynesses.

Am also thinking about a POA alternation between /k/ and /q/. I just haven't seen it in any language. Probably some very open-back vowel could have caused *k -> q and later merged with some other vowel?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 20:27
sangi39 wrote: 06 Sep 2022 19:55
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 16:20 I have the following phoneme inventory (inspired by Ket):

t k q
b d
f s h
m n
l r j

y i u
ø e o
ä

({t k q b d f s h})({m n l r j}){y i u ø e o ä}({s h N})

What morpho-phonological alternations could appear between the consonant phonemes? There is no palatalization, which is the usual suspect for morpho-phonological alternations.
Aside from voicing assimilation, e.g. /tm/ > [tm̥] or /s.d/> [z.d], you could maybe have some form of consonant gradation, e.g. /tran.ta/ > /tran.das/. Or maybe even have consonant gradation not be so obviously conditioned by assuming that, say, syllables used to also be able to end in /ʔ/ (which surfaced as gemination in the plosives), which were eventually just dropped, so you get something like /tran.ta/ > /tran.ta/ vs. /tran.ta-ʔ/ > /tran.da/. You could also use this to have exceptions to consonant gradation, e.g. /flaʔ.ta/ > /flat.ta/ > /fla.ta/ vs. /flaʔ.ta-ʔ/ > /flat.ta-ʔ/> /fla.ta-ʔ/ > /fla.ta/, and that way. If you also had /ʔ/ between vowels, and was then dropped (and vowel hiatus was resolved in such a way as to result in monophthongs), then you could get "inverse" consonant gradation to, like. /se.teʔ/ > /se.de/ vs. /se.te.ʔ-Vh/ > /se.teh/. So you end up with two "grades", a strong and a weak one and, for the most part, the strong one would shift to the weak one when the syllable closes, but there would also be conditions where this shift either doesn't happen, or happens in reverse (but much more rarely)
Gradation is of course one thing. There is only one voiced-voiceless pair, that of /d/ and /t/. Of coerce /f/ can be historically *p and thus alternate with /b/.
I just somewhat try avoiding Finnishynesses.

Am also thinking about a POA alternation between /k/ and /q/. I just haven't seen it in any language. Probably some very open-back vowel could have caused *k -> q and later merged with some other vowel?
I'm not 100% sure I've seen the alternation either, at least where /k/ and /q/ are distinct phonemes but at least some dialects of Turkish and I thing Classical Mongolian(?) have [q] and an allophone of /k/ before (some) back vowels, so it wouldn't be impossible for that to turn into a morphophonological alternation in some environments (like palatalisation in Romance and Slavic languages did), and probably does exist in at least some language (I tried to find an alternation similar to it in some modern Mongolian language, but no such luck yet)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 »

Wikipedia claims that there is some degree of postvelar contact in English /k/ before /ʊ oː ɔ oɪ ʊə/ in Australian English, after back vowels in Multicultural London English, and after /æ/ in (exurban Dublin?-unclear) Hibernian English
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

sangi39 wrote: 07 Sep 2022 00:25
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 20:27
sangi39 wrote: 06 Sep 2022 19:55
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 16:20 I have the following phoneme inventory (inspired by Ket):

t k q
b d
f s h
m n
l r j

y i u
ø e o
ä

({t k q b d f s h})({m n l r j}){y i u ø e o ä}({s h N})

What morpho-phonological alternations could appear between the consonant phonemes? There is no palatalization, which is the usual suspect for morpho-phonological alternations.
Aside from voicing assimilation, e.g. /tm/ > [tm̥] or /s.d/> [z.d], you could maybe have some form of consonant gradation, e.g. /tran.ta/ > /tran.das/. Or maybe even have consonant gradation not be so obviously conditioned by assuming that, say, syllables used to also be able to end in /ʔ/ (which surfaced as gemination in the plosives), which were eventually just dropped, so you get something like /tran.ta/ > /tran.ta/ vs. /tran.ta-ʔ/ > /tran.da/. You could also use this to have exceptions to consonant gradation, e.g. /flaʔ.ta/ > /flat.ta/ > /fla.ta/ vs. /flaʔ.ta-ʔ/ > /flat.ta-ʔ/> /fla.ta-ʔ/ > /fla.ta/, and that way. If you also had /ʔ/ between vowels, and was then dropped (and vowel hiatus was resolved in such a way as to result in monophthongs), then you could get "inverse" consonant gradation to, like. /se.teʔ/ > /se.de/ vs. /se.te.ʔ-Vh/ > /se.teh/. So you end up with two "grades", a strong and a weak one and, for the most part, the strong one would shift to the weak one when the syllable closes, but there would also be conditions where this shift either doesn't happen, or happens in reverse (but much more rarely)
Gradation is of course one thing. There is only one voiced-voiceless pair, that of /d/ and /t/. Of coerce /f/ can be historically *p and thus alternate with /b/.
I just somewhat try avoiding Finnishynesses.

Am also thinking about a POA alternation between /k/ and /q/. I just haven't seen it in any language. Probably some very open-back vowel could have caused *k -> q and later merged with some other vowel?
I'm not 100% sure I've seen the alternation either, at least where /k/ and /q/ are distinct phonemes but at least some dialects of Turkish and I thing Classical Mongolian(?) have [q] and an allophone of /k/ before (some) back vowels, so it wouldn't be impossible for that to turn into a morphophonological alternation in some environments (like palatalisation in Romance and Slavic languages did), and probably does exist in at least some language (I tried to find an alternation similar to it in some modern Mongolian language, but no such luck yet)
Thank you! Turkic and Mongolian are at least starting points for hunting for more info.
At least in seems theoretically possible.

Back to gradation.
In Finnic at least, gradation is a stress-related phenomenon. I have to reread Kielen vuosituhannet. I think this lang could have some kind of a tonal accent. Is gradation more unlikely in a language without SAE stress?
Wikipedia claims that there is some degree of postvelar contact in English /k/ before /ʊ oː ɔ oɪ ʊə/ in Australian English, after back vowels in Multicultural London English, and after /æ/ in (exurban Dublin?-unclear) Hibernian English
OK. /k/ having post-velar allophones shouldn't be very uncommon, I think. Or how /q/ generally comes about?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus »

Omzinesý wrote: 07 Sep 2022 21:11
In Finnic at least, gradation is a stress-related phenomenon. I have to reread Kielen vuosituhannet. I think this lang could have some kind of a tonal accent. Is gradation more unlikely in a language without SAE stress?
Am I missing something here?

Firstly, what does stress have to do with syllabic gradation? Isn't the idea just that weak grades reflect original following closed syllables, and strong grades open ones? I know that in Finnish the results of this gradation are conflated with the results of rhythmic gradation, which might have something to do with stress, but that's a different phenomenon - in some Uralic languages, the two forms of gradation, if both are present, give different outcomes. So even if you couldn't have rhythmic gradation you could still have syllabic gradation.

But more importantly: why would the current stress system be relevant? Indeed, the change or removal of the cause of an allophonic distinction is precisely what causes a phonemic distinction. So there is still rhythmic gradation in Uralic languages with fixed stress - and of course in Germanic languages that now have fixed stress!

[assuming Proto-Germanic gradation WAS caused by stress. If it arose when the parent language still had a tonal system, then that would answer your question even more directly!]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Znex »

Salmoneus wrote: 07 Sep 2022 23:38
Omzinesý wrote: 07 Sep 2022 21:11
In Finnic at least, gradation is a stress-related phenomenon. I have to reread Kielen vuosituhannet. I think this lang could have some kind of a tonal accent. Is gradation more unlikely in a language without SAE stress?
Am I missing something here?

Firstly, what does stress have to do with syllabic gradation? Isn't the idea just that weak grades reflect original following closed syllables, and strong grades open ones? I know that in Finnish the results of this gradation are conflated with the results of rhythmic gradation, which might have something to do with stress, but that's a different phenomenon - in some Uralic languages, the two forms of gradation, if both are present, give different outcomes. So even if you couldn't have rhythmic gradation you could still have syllabic gradation.

But more importantly: why would the current stress system be relevant? Indeed, the change or removal of the cause of an allophonic distinction is precisely what causes a phonemic distinction. So there is still rhythmic gradation in Uralic languages with fixed stress - and of course in Germanic languages that now have fixed stress!

[assuming Proto-Germanic gradation WAS caused by stress. If it arose when the parent language still had a tonal system, then that would answer your question even more directly!]
Lol I don't see them saying specifically "syllabic" gradation, so yes rhythmic gradation is caused by stress/tonal accent/whathaveyou, while syllabic gradation is a different thing, and both happen to occur in Finnic. The exact conditions synchronically are not absolutely clear due to elision and some syllable contraction, but it's still functioning.

Verner's law definitely occurred while Proto-Germanic still had lexical accent (the whole law hinges on that supposition) and seems to be particularly close to the rhythmic gradation process that happened in Uralic. Rhythmic gradation affected every odd syllable from the first syllable: eg. CV́CVCV̀CV > CV́CVGV̀CV, ie. after every unstressed syllable not secondarily stressed, while Verner's law more specifically affects every syllable after an unstressed syllable, regardless of its relative position otherwise in the word, eg. CV́CVCV > CVCVGV, CVCV́CV > CVGVCV, CVCVCV́ > CVGVGV.

I think both types of gradation are more transparent in some Samoyedic languages, eg. Nganasan.
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 20:27Am also thinking about a POA alternation between /k/ and /q/. I just haven't seen it in any language. Probably some very open-back vowel could have caused *k -> q and later merged with some other vowel?
This is very common in Eskimo-Aleut iirc, you might want to check out the Aleut language and Greenlandic. In both languages for instance, /q/ commonly lowers adjacent vowels (a i u > ɑ e o). A note on the Greenlandic wiki page seems to indicate that this is common in Quechua as well.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus »

Znex wrote: 08 Sep 2022 06:07 Lol I don't see them saying specifically "syllabic" gradation
No need to get arsey about it.

But in any case, I didn't say that they said specifically syllabic gradation. I thought my point was pretty clear that so long as any type of gradation in Finnish was NOT based on stress, that would answer the "can I have gradation not based on stress?" question, even though Finnish does have another sort of gradation that IS possibly based on stress*. So I don't think your gotcha really applies.
Verner's law definitely occurred while Proto-Germanic still had lexical accent (the whole law hinges on that supposition)

Obviously, that was exactly the point that I was making - assuming you include 'stress' as a form of 'accent'. The allophonic distinction arose when accent was lexical, and was phonemicised by delexicalisation of the accent. Although you mean Pre-Proto-Germanic, as PGmc is usually assumed to have initial stress already - otherwise you'd have to explain it arising independently in all daughters. If by 'accent' you mean pitch accent, then I don't see how we could know that, however.




*some people don't think any gradation in Finnish has anything to do with stress. The alternative idea is that it's all metrical, based on foot shapes, and the fact that one type of gradation happens to line up with stress is most (but not all) Uralic languages is then just a coincidence, due to stress also being based on foot shapes.

So, gradation could be the result of only three metric rules:
- feet are bisyllabic where possible
- the first syllable of a foot should be heavy
- no foot should have more than four morae

Using made up words because I don't know Finnish, applying the second rule via gemination gives us:
meto > metto (gemination to make first syllable heavy)
meton > metton (gemination to make first syllable heavy)
metoka > mettoka (no gemination of *k because it follows a second syllable, which does not need to be heavy)

Then applying the third rule gives us:
metton > meton (degemination to prevent tetramoraic foot)

This theory allows us to explain why gradation only occurs foot-internally in Sami (we can assume analogy to other consonants in Finnish), why some Uralic languages don't have syllabic gradation (the second rule applies but the third rule was never added) or have productive rhythmic gradation that doesn't match stress (stress has become fixed but foot structure remains an active constraint), why some languages have different results of the two gradations for clusters (because one 'weak' grade is original and the other is a subsequent lenition of an original fortition), and perhaps why some languages have those ridiculous coda geminates and overlong consonants (because single codas weren't seen as sufficiently moraic, so needed to be lengthened to produce unambiguously heavy syllables).


Sadly this makes the Uralic system look less like Verner, but Verner could still be an areal analogy from rhythmic gradation in Finnic (or a related language now extinct)?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Znex wrote: 08 Sep 2022 06:07
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 20:27Am also thinking about a POA alternation between /k/ and /q/. I just haven't seen it in any language. Probably some very open-back vowel could have caused *k -> q and later merged with some other vowel?
This is very common in Eskimo-Aleut iirc, you might want to check out the Aleut language and Greenlandic. In both languages for instance, /q/ commonly lowers adjacent vowels (a i u > ɑ e o). A note on the Greenlandic wiki page seems to indicate that this is common in Quechua as well.
But they are allophonic changes caused by [-high] consonants on [+high] vowels. Not the other way around. Arabic(s) has very similar allophony.
I'm more interested in changes of the consonants (and partial mergers) of the consonants.

I return to gradation when I have thought/read a bit.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sequor »

Omzinesý wrote: 06 Sep 2022 16:20 I have the following phoneme inventory (inspired by Ket):

t k q
b d
f s h
m n
l r j

y i u
ø e o
ä

({t k q b d f s h})({m n l r j}){y i u ø e o ä}({s h N})

What morpho-phonological alternations could appear between the consonant phonemes? There is no palatalization, which is the usual suspect for morpho-phonological alternations.
The most obvious one is /n/ ~ /m/ when they're the first member of a cluster, but it's trivial.

/b d/ ~ /m n/ could alternate, maybe as a remnant of what used to be phonemic nasalized vowels, or consonant clusters with a nasal, or nasalization harmony between a root with /m n/ and an affix with /-b -d/.

/t k/ ~ /s h/ due to lenition.

/t k f s/ ~ /h/ due to debuccalization. Maybe /m/ also alternated with [ŋ] at some point as its "debuccalized" allophone, which then dentalized/alveolarized to [n] interpreted as /n/ (syllable-final [ŋ] > [n] seems attested in southern varieties of Mandarin).

/n d/ ~ /m b/ due to buccalization (cf. my father's dialect of Spanish, where sentence-final /n/ is [m]: Ya nos vieron [ˈɟʝa noh ˈbjeɾom]).

/d r/ ~ /l/ due to lambdacism. Latin has a prefix -ālis that becomes -āris after a root that contains an /l/ (dissimilation), e.g. hiem-ālis but balne-āris. You could have the opposite: køh-ado, sa-ado, but nir-alo, dek-alo.

/t d/ ~ /s/ (or /l/ or /r/) as MOA dissimilation with other /t d/, cf. Latin cad-ere ~ cās-um (< originally cad-tum, dt > s is a regular thing).

Rhotacism with /t/ or /d/ (or /l/) becoming /r/ in some contexts, cf. t/d-flapping in North American / Australian English. Also between /s/ and /r/, after an intermediate stage where /s/ was sometimes [z]: [mis-ta mis-u] > [mis-ta miz-u] > [mis-ta mir-u].

I can also imagine palatalization followed by lenition, giving the alternations /t k/ ~ /s/ and /d/ ~ /j/. Namely, [t k] > [tɕ] (before /i y ø/ or such) > [ s], and [d] > [dʑ] > [j] (cf. [ɟʝ ~ ʝ] in standard Spanish, [ɟʝ ~ j] in my dialect).

There's a prefix in Tibetan (marking animal nouns among other things, IIRC) that alternates d- with g- depending on the following consonant, reflecting dissimilation (I don't know Tibetan but let's imagine d-gik but g-thom). I can imagine /t k/, /b d/, /m n/ entering POA dissimilation that way too, like maybe you could have a prefix with /k b m/ before a root that starts with a coronal, and /t d n/ before a labial or dorsal.

And there is always the possibility of alternating with zero, due to consonant dropping, but this kind of avoids your question...
Last edited by Sequor on 08 Sep 2022 18:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Znex »

Salmoneus wrote: 08 Sep 2022 14:36No need to get arsey about it.
Ah, fair though. I think I took what you were saying another way, and I've been in a bit of a mood as of late. Sorry about that. [:S]
Salmoneus wrote: 08 Sep 2022 14:36*some people don't think any gradation in Finnish has anything to do with stress. The alternative idea is that it's all metrical, based on foot shapes, and the fact that one type of gradation happens to line up with stress is most (but not all) Uralic languages is then just a coincidence, due to stress also being based on foot shapes.

So, gradation could be the result of only three metric rules:
- feet are bisyllabic where possible
- the first syllable of a foot should be heavy
- no foot should have more than four morae

Using made up words because I don't know Finnish, applying the second rule via gemination gives us:
This sounds good, but I dunno how far that's supported in Uralic? At least I got the impression that first syllables in Proto-Uralic roots are often either light or heavy, though certainly the other syllable is normatively light and limited to a few vowels.

I don't know much about the Saamic sound changes, but for Finnic at least, I don't think consonants after a light first syllable are really geminated? In Modern Finnish certainly, bimoraic words with a light first syllable are not uncommon.

On the other hand, I also recall a number of medial consonants in Proto-Uralic (ie. following a light syllable) are voiced and resemble the later gradated consonants as emerge in Finnic, Saamic, and Samoyedic. Markedly, some appear most often medially rather than initially.

That said the metric rules including gemination do seem to resemble the situation in the hypothetical Temematic and some related hypothetical substrate languages, which I have a soft spot for... [:3]
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Post by Omzinesý »

Those are good ones!
Sequor wrote: 08 Sep 2022 17:48 /b d/ ~ /m n/ could alternate, maybe as a remnant of what used to be phonemic nasalized vowels, or consonant clusters with a nasal, or nasalization harmony between a root with /m n/ and an affix with /-b -d/.
That is a good and simple idea that I didn't occur to me.
Does the alteration appear in some language?

I think the idea of nasal harmony works better if the alteration appears in affixes.

kara-bo 'houses'
mara-mo 'road-s'

Could the alternation b~m, d~n somehow appear in roots as well?
Sequor wrote: 08 Sep 2022 17:48 /t k/ ~ /s h/ due to lenition.

/t k f s/ ~ /h/ due to debuccalization. Maybe /m/ also alternated with [ŋ] at some point as its "debuccalized" allophone, which then dentalized/alveolarized to [n] interpreted as /n/ (syllable-final [ŋ] > [n] seems attested in southern varieties of Mandarin).
Yes, lenition/general weakening of consonants is of course possible. There just has to be a context initiating the alternation. Maybe the aforementioned gradation.
Sequor wrote: 08 Sep 2022 17:48 /t d/ ~ /s/ (or /l/ or /r/) as MOA dissimilation with other /t d/, cf. Latin cad-ere ~ cās-um (< originally cad-tum, dt > s is a regular thing).
With the initial phonotactics I gave, the only allowed geminates would be /ss/ and /hh/. It could well lead to that alternation.
Sequor wrote: 08 Sep 2022 17:48 There's a prefix in Tibetan (marking animal nouns among other things, IIRC) that alternates d- with g- depending on the following consonant, reflecting dissimilation (I don't know Tibetan but let's imagine d-gik but g-thom). I can imagine /t k/, /b d/, /m n/ entering POA dissimilation that way too, like maybe you could have a prefix with /k b m/ before a root that starts with a coronal, and /t d n/ before a labial or dorsal.
Just interested, what language/phase of Tibetan? Do you have an interesting grammar book to recommend?

Thank you for the other ideas I didn't comment, as well.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

I checked Kielen vuosituhannet. It is a somewhat outdated introduction to the history of Finnish.

It seems that the initial context of gradation is debated.

It certainly appeared after stressed syllables (sc. radical gradation):
Modern Finnish: kota - kodat 'tent - tents (kind of)'

And the weak grade of a single consonant appeared between the second and third syllable (both unstressed) regardless of the third syllable being closed or open (sc. suffixal gradation).

tule-vi 'come-s'
saa-pi 'get-s, arrive-s'

But the tricky example are words with -CCV derivation, which do have gradation in Modern Finnish.

emäntä 'woman of the house, hostess' (from emä 'mother')
emännät 'women of the house'

So the last one is not conditioned by stress and its debated if it is later analogy.

(Xonen will probably arrive and tell I have understood wrong. :wat: )

My understanding is that in most Uralic languages intervocalic consonants have lenited (fin. pato - padot; Hungarian fál). So the question is not why vowels in the beginning of non-initial closed syllables weakened but that why they did not weaken in the beginning of all non-final syllables in Finnic and Saami (and Samoyed?)
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Post by Ahzoh »

Would it be naturalistic for monosyllabic words ending in a vowel to take on longer forms of case endings than other types of words?

e.g. kú-mma (3fs-NOM) but nā́tu-m (night-NOM) and lúmbu-m (human-NOM)
Stress marked by acute accent.
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Post by Creyeditor »

Yes, definitely. Kimatuumbi is an example that I found. Perfective is marked by a suffix -ite for monosyllabic verbs but by an infix -i- for polysyllabic verbs. You might want to google "syllable counting allomorphy".
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

I continue with my question about morphophonological alternations.

If the proto-lang had prenasalized voiced stops

mb nd

Could there dissimilation that they become voiced stops if the following syllable has nasals but nasals in other environments?

ambana -> abana, ambata -> amata

Or they become nasals if there are stops in the following syllable and voiced stops in other environments?

ambara -> abara, ambata -> amata

Does one of those ideas sound plausible?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

mp nd
What about mb and nt ?
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Post by Omzinesý »

eldin raigmore wrote: 14 Sep 2022 22:03
mp nd
What about mb and nt ?
Typo as usual
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore »

Does one of those ideas sound plausible?
I’m too ignorant for anything to sound implausible to me.
So, yes. FWIW to the best of my knowledge those sound plausible.
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