Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Posted: 13 Jun 2021 22:14
That's the thing, though. I don't always know if I'm pronouncing it consistently and correctly.
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English is half way there; for example in the sentence "He doesn't see me", see is unconjugated and instead don't is conjugated. It's only a small step from there to do not becoming a single verb.teotlxixtli wrote: ↑02 Jul 2021 06:59 I had read about how in some languages the word “no”, instead of simply preceding the verb it negates, also takes all the subject and tense/aspect marking of the verb. How does such a thing come about?
Maybe German > English > Finnish would be a possible route.VaptuantaDoi wrote: ↑02 Jul 2021 08:27English is half way there; for example in the sentence "He doesn't see me", see is unconjugated and instead don't is conjugated. It's only a small step from there to do not becoming a single verb.teotlxixtli wrote: ↑02 Jul 2021 06:59 I had read about how in some languages the word “no”, instead of simply preceding the verb it negates, also takes all the subject and tense/aspect marking of the verb. How does such a thing come about?
Yes.LinguoFranco wrote: ↑02 Jul 2021 16:14 I want to add secondary stress to a conlang, but I've hit a few roadblock.s
1. Let's say that in this conlang, the secondary stress starts on the first syllable, and every other syllable after it also is stressed.
So a word like /kanatuke/ is /,ka.na.,tu.ke/.
But what if a word has an odd number of syllables like /tekanu/?
Would it become /,te.ka.,nu/?
No.2. How would it interact with the primary stress? Can there be a /,ka.na,tu.'ke/?
Probably not; why would it?3. If I had a main stress confined to the stem (say, that the final syllable of the stem gets stressed), would that mess up the secondary stress?
That depends on whether or not secondary stress is, or isn’t, weight-sensitive or quantity-sensitive.4. How does vowel length affect it?
Except that it can!eldin raigmore wrote: ↑03 Jul 2021 14:36 A single word cannot contain two consecutive stressed syllables.
Huh?No kind of stress or rhythm occurs in one-syllable words.
This certainly isn't true phonetically in English, and I'm not convinced it's true phonemically either.Primary stress, if your ‘lang has it, occurs in exactly one syllable of every word with two or more syllables.
No offence, but this is sophistry!You can have rhythm without primary stress. Rhythm is always counted as secondary stress. So you can have secondary stress without primary stress.
This isn't true. Latin is a counterexample - a word like "absimilis" has a more-stressed light syllable (-si-) next to an unstressed heavy syllable (ab-).The fundamental rule relating stress to syllable-weight is there can never be a less-stressed heavier syllable next to a more-stressed lighter syllable.
It can be, yes. But it doesn't have to me. In many, if not most languages, there's no need to treat morae as a meaningful category, at least for stress assignment (they might be relevant for timing, perhaps). In Latin, for instance, stress is determined solely by whether the penult is heavy or light - the concept of morae is irrelevant. In other languages, however, the stress is a certain number of morae from the word edge, in which case the concept of morae is relevant (and contrariwise in these cases the concept of 'heavy' and 'light' syllables is probably superfluous, since you just count morae).Weight is counted in morae (morsels or bites).
Oh, not scope, boundedness, that's right. However, you've overlooked that this bit negates your rule above!In many (most?) systems without trimoraic or heavier syllables, primary stress (and maybe polar stress?) is “bounded”; it can occur only in one of the last two syllables, or one of the first two, or one of the last three, or one of the first three, or one of the last four, or one of the first four syllables.
Huh? English doesn't have predictable stress!English is a language with superheavy syllables.
I'm skeptical. For instance, I've definitely heard about languages in which the stress is determined by morae. So for instance, you should be able to have a rule like "stress falls on the fourth mora from the right", which would violate this rule (and indeed your other rule), because it would result in LHL endings to have stress on the antepenult, not the heavy penult (whereas LHH endings would stress the penult). But I don't know of any concrete examples.If primary-stress is weight-sensitive, The primarily stressed syllable will be the heaviest one, or one of those tied for heaviest, if primary stress is unbounded or the word has one or more superheavy or ultraheavy syllables. Or, if primary stress is weight-sensitive and either primary stress is bounded or the word contains no superheavy nor ultraheavy syllables, the primarily stressed syllable will be the heaviest one in the stress window, or one of those tied for heaviest in the stress window.
It’s probably a mood, if what it gets called is mostly governed by its semantic effects.Shemtov wrote: ↑05 Jul 2021 07:20 Reading a grammar of Tamil, I came across the idea of an "attitudinal marker" that basically mark that the action is done maliciously. I want to include this in a conlang, but what should I call it? Is it a mood or something else? There's also an "aspect" that marks that something is done for the benefit of a future time. Is this really an aspect, and what should it be called?
It's something else, probably. Saying "he knocked on the door maliciously" is still indicative!
Yes, this is an aspect. Or at least, it can be. It can be called the preparative aspect. You could also see it as a mood or a tense. Just as the perfect indicates a realis perfective past event with irrealis imperfective non-past relevance, so too the preparative indicates a realis perfective present event with irrealis imperfective future relevance.There's also an "aspect" that marks that something is done for the benefit of a future time. Is this really an aspect, and what should it be called?
Yeah, you're right that it could mean that, but it can also mean this. I'm not sure if there's a better word for it, either. Another possibility is 'prospective', but that's more often used for 'about to', 'fixing to' aspects (near-future action being considered, prepared for or avoided at present)Creyeditor wrote: ↑05 Jul 2021 15:45 Hmm, but wouldn't a preparative aspect mean that the actual action expressed by the verb occurs in the future (relative to some reference time) and some other action ("preparing") might happen at the reference time?
This sounds different from doing something where the actual action denoted by the verb takes place at the reference time and it might be relevant for some future action, IINM.
Edit: I just read on Wikipedia that preparative aspect as a term is actually used for the latter in Japanese. I stand corrected.
Really? In Finnish the difference between eg. the tule in hän ei tule ("he/she doesn't come") and tule! ("come!") is /ˈtule/ and /ˈtuˈle/ AFAIK, or at least that's what it sounds like and I'm sure I've read it described that way. What the actual difference between stressed and unstressed syllables even is in Finnish is something no one can agree on, though, so... hmm...eldin raigmore wrote: ↑03 Jul 2021 14:36A single word cannot contain two consecutive stressed syllables.
I think it's not stressing. Commands surely have a different intonation compared to affirmatives, but if you have Hän ei tule tänne. and Tule tänne!, both tule are similar in the word level. Most dialects have the final gemination in the end of both.Vlürch wrote: ↑05 Jul 2021 20:47Really? In Finnish the difference between eg. the tule in hän ei tule ("he/she doesn't come") and tule! ("come!") is /ˈtule/ and /ˈtuˈle/ AFAIK, or at least that's what it sounds like and I'm sure I've read it described that way. What the actual difference between stressed and unstressed syllables even is in Finnish is something no one can agree on, though, so... hmm...eldin raigmore wrote: ↑03 Jul 2021 14:36A single word cannot contain two consecutive stressed syllables.