Typological voting game

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by eldin raigmore »

I know it’s early.
. I vote for secondary stress; whether rhythmic or polar.
. I vote for it to be weight-sensitive.
. I vote for it to have the same weight-system primary stress has.
. I vote for it to start at the other end of the word from the primary stress.
. I vote rhythm instead of polar stress.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

Okay, everyone, in Round 13, we voted on the Weight-sensitive stress runoff, and the winner is E) Unbounded: Stress can be anywhere in the word. Here is what WALS says about unbounded weight-sensitive stress systems:
These systems are especially interesting because the location of stress is not restricted to syllables that are near the edge of the word. [...]

It turns out that the location of stress in unbounded systems follows exactly the same principles that determine stress location in bounded, weight-sensitive systems. Again there are four types, as shown in (9) (compare (3)). The only difference is that the domain can now contain more than two heavy syllables (since its size is not limited to the size of two syllables):
This gives us an additional thing to vote on in Round 14:

Unbounded stress types

A) Right/Left - Stress the rightmost heavy syllable in the word, and if there are no heavy syllables, stress the first syllable
B) Right/Right - Stress the rightmost heavy syllable in the word, and if there are no heavy syllables, stress the last syllable
C) Left/Left - Stress the leftmost heavy syllable in the word, and if there are no heavy syllables, stress the first syllable
D) Left/Right - Stress the leftmost heavy syllable in the word, and if there are no heavy syllables, stress the last syllable

And since I don't think unbounded stress type if particularly consequential for this, we can go ahead and start voting on rhythm types. This is based on Chapter 17 in WALS and pertains to the assignment of secondary stress. First, we must vote on whether there will be secondary stress or not.

Secondary Stress

A) Secondary stress is present
B) Secondary stress is not present

We also took submissions for vowel length inventories.

Vowel length inventories

Each user may vote for two (but you may not vote for the same one twice).

A)

/i ɨ u/
/e eː/
/a aː/
/ei əɨ ou/

B)

/i i: ɨ u u:/
/e e:/
/a a:/
/ai au ei/

C)

/i iː ɨ ɨː u uː/
/e eː/
/a aː/
/ai au ei eu iu ui ɨu ɨi/

D)

/i iː ɨ ɨː u uː/
/e eː/
/a aː/
/iu ui eu au ei ai ue ua ie ia/

E)

/i iː ɨ ɨː u uː/
/e eː/
/a aː/

Also, as promised, we will also finally start voting on the inflectional questions. We will start with Chapter 20: Fusion of Selected Inflectional Formatives. The data in this chapter is based on case marking and tense-aspect marking, as outlined on the page Sampling Case and Tense Formatives. As you may recall, in the very first round, we voted on Chapter 25: Locus of Marking: Whole-language Typology, and opted for the category Consistently head-marking. What this means is that there is no case-marking, or at least no case marking in nouns. Even if there is case-marking on pronouns, it is ignored in the sampling procedure for Chapter 20. (We can approach the topic of case-marking on pronouns later.)

So what we are doing is voting on the fusion of tense-aspect marking in this language. The "mixed" categories in the WALS sample are for languages where the fusion of case marking and tense-aspect marking differ. We do not have case marking, so these categories will be excluded from the vote.

Chapter 20: Fusion of Selected Inflectional Formatives

A) Exclusively concatenative
B) Exclusively isolating
C) Exclusively tonal
D) Exclusively ablaut

Edit: Another note for clarification. The term "exclusively" here refers to the single sampled TAM formative, which, as described in the link above, is by default the past tense. If there is no past, it refers to the future; if no future, it refers to the present; if no tense, it refers to aspect, and so on. So if we vote "exclusively concatenating", that means the past tense (or whichever other formative) is concatenating, but it still allows for the possibility that other formatives could be tonal, and vice versa. Also, I have added an "ablaut" category - it doesn't appear on its own as a category, but it appears in one of the combined categories, so heck, why not provide it as an option?

(I am not sure what a head-marking isolating language looks like, but I checked WALS and apparently at least some exist...)

Okay! That's a lot. In Round 15 we will continue with the secondary stress/rhythm process and possibly vote on Chapter 21: Exponence of Selected Inflectional Formatives. And after that will come the long-awaited allophony, phonotactics, and tone system submissions.

Voting for Round 14 will close at 5:00 PM GMT (12 noon US Eastern time) on Wednesday, March 3.
Last edited by Porphyrogenitos on 25 Feb 2021 01:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Typological voting game

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Round 14

Unbounded stress type:
1st choice: B) Right/right
2nd choice: C) Left/left
3rd choice: A) Right/left

Secondary stress:
A) 2ndary stress is present

Vowel length (and diphthong) inventory:
1st choice: D)
2nd choice: C)

Chapter 20 Fusion ....
1st choice: A) exclusively concatenating
2nd choice: C) exclusively tonal

......... .......... ..........

Did I do that right?
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

Yes! Although you don't need to list your 2nd, 3rd etc choices. I get why you're doing it, but unless we got everyone to list their choices and ran a whole ranked choice voting system I'm not really able to factor them in.

Edit: I have also added ablaut to the the inflectional formatives vote, if you want to change your vote in light of that.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by eldin raigmore »

Porphyrogenitos wrote: 25 Feb 2021 01:22 Yes! Although you don't need to list your 2nd, 3rd etc choices. I get why you're doing it, but unless we got everyone to list their choices and ran a whole ranked choice voting system I'm not really able to factor them in.
So it only mattered on the vowel-length-and-diphthong inventory question, and even there it doesn’t matter which was first and which was second;
right?

......

Are you still planning to decide what our maximal syllable-weights will be?
In natlangs weights heavier than tetramoraics are damn rare but do occur. In the only instance I can call to mind the weight of a syllable depends partly on the onset as well as the rime.
Ultraheavy tetramoraic syllables occur in some well-known languages, e.g. Japanese; but are also rare, I think.
Superheavy trimoraic syllables aren’t rare at all, but are a minority thing, IIANM. English (for instance) has them.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

eldin raigmore wrote: 25 Feb 2021 01:33
So it only mattered on the vowel-length-and-diphthong inventory question, and even there it doesn’t matter which was first and which was second;
right?
Correct.
eldin raigmore wrote: 25 Feb 2021 01:33 Are you still planning to decide what our maximal syllable-weights will be?
In natlangs weights heavier than tetramoraics are damn rare but do occur. In the only instance I can call to mind the weight of a syllable depends partly on the onset as well as the rime.
Ultraheavy tetramoraic syllables occur in some well-known languages, e.g. Japanese; but are also rare, I think.
Superheavy trimoraic syllables aren’t rare at all, but are a minority thing, IIANM. English (for instance) has them.
We will leave this to the discretion of the individual users who submit proposals for the final tone-stress system.
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Re: Typological voting game

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Round 14

Unbounded stress type:
B) Right/right

Secondary stress:
A) 2ndary stress is present

Vowel length (and diphthong) inventory:
B), D)

Chapter 20 Fusion
A) exclusively concatenating
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by cedh »

Unbounded stress types
B) Right/Right
(second choice: C) Left/Left)

Secondary Stress
B) Secondary stress is not present

Vowel length inventories
First choice: A) /i ɨ u e a/ + /ei əɨ ou eː aː/
Second choice: E) /i ɨ u e a/ + /iː ɨː uː eː aː/

Chapter 20: Fusion of Selected Inflectional Formatives
A) Exclusively concatenative
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Ratsawn »

Unbounded Stress Types: A

Secondary Stress: A

Vowel Length Inventories: A and C

Fusion of Selected Inflectional Formatives: B
Porphyrogenitos wrote: 25 Feb 2021 00:53 (I am not sure what a head-marking isolating language looks like, but I checked WALS and apparently at least some exist...)
If a language required some sort of reduced pronouns to occur with the verb and mark person, but they were still separate words, the language would still be isolating. That's my theory at least, sorta like the equivalent of Spanish a mí me gusta, where even though you have the full pronoun a clitic pronoun is still required.
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Re: Typological voting game

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Porphyrogenitos wrote: 25 Feb 2021 01:45 We will leave this to the discretion of the individual users who submit proposals for the final tone-stress system.
Have those already been submitted?
If not, what are the rules for submitting a proposal or some proposals?
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

eldin raigmore wrote: 25 Feb 2021 22:50
Have those already been submitted?
If not, what are the rules for submitting a proposal or some proposals?
No, they have not. We will take submissions for them once we have finished the process for deciding secondary stress. The rules will simply be that they must conform with everything else we have decided about tone, stress, and other phonological categories; people will be free to suggest what they want within those bounds.

So far we know that the language has a two-category tonal system and predictable, weight-sensitive, unbounded stress.
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Re: Typological voting game

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Unbounded Stress Type: A
Secondary Stress: A
Vowel Length Inventory: C, E

C)
/i iː ɨ ɨː u uː/
/e eː/
/a aː/
/ai au ei eu iu ui ɨu ɨi/

E)
/i iː ɨ ɨː u uː/
/e eː/
/a aː/

Ch. 20: A
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Re: Typological voting game

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Porphyrogenitos wrote: 25 Feb 2021 01:22 Edit: I have also added ablaut to the the inflectional formatives vote, if you want to change your vote in light of that.
I think for Round 14 (or was it round 13?) Chapter 20 the addition of D Ablaut as an option could change my second choice; but my first choice is still A concatenating.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

Okay, so the results are in for Round 14!
  • Unbounded stress types - Right/Right - Stress the rightmost heavy syllable in the word, and if there are no heavy syllables, stress the last syllable
  • Secondary stress - Secondary stress is present
  • Vowel length inventories - Inventory C, "Symetrical length and dipthongs" submitted by Creyeditor
/i iː ɨ ɨː u uː/
/e eː/
/a aː/
/ai au ei eu iu ui ɨu ɨi/
  • Chapter 20: Fusion of Selected Inflectional Formatives - Exclusively concatenative
So I think I will cut down the secondary stress process to just one vote in Round 15, corresponding to the content shown in WALS map 17A. The rest of the details of secondary stress can be decided by users in their submissions for tone-stress systems and allophony, which will happen, finally, in Round 16.

Secondary stress types

A) Trochaic: left-hand syllable in the foot is strong
B) Iambic: right-hand syllable in the foot is strong
C) Dual: system has both trochaic and iambic feet
D) Undetermined: no clear foot type

And we will also vote on one more morphological category before tackling tone-stress and allophony:

21B: Tense-aspect-mood (TAM) exponence

A) monoexponential TAM
B) TAM+agreement
C) TAM+agreement+diathesis
D) TAM+agreement+construct
E) TAM+polarity

Our response to Chapter 20 presumes the existence of TAM, so the option "no TAM" is left out. See Chapter 21 for more details on these categories. 21A is moot, since we do not have case marking.

Voting for Round 15 will close at 5:00 PM GMT (12 noon US Eastern time) on Wednesday, March 10.
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Re: Typological voting game

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2ndary stress type C dual both trochees and iambs

21B C TAM + diathesis + agreement
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Re: Typological voting game

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Secondary stress types
A) Trochaic: left-hand syllable in the foot is strong

As for 21B, shouldn't we vote on all possible combinations? Anyway, I would vote E) TAM+polarity, but if possible I would prefer TAM+Polarity+Diathesis
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Ratsawn »

Secondary Stress: A

TAM Exponence: E
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Re: Typological voting game

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Creyeditor wrote: 03 Mar 2021 21:14
As for 21B, shouldn't we vote on all possible combinations? Anyway, I would vote E) TAM+polarity, but if possible I would prefer TAM+Polarity+Diathesis
I mean, the idea was to stick within the bounds of what's already documented within WALS. But, I acknowledge we're not going to be able to strictly adhere to that, and in fact will move considerably beyond that as we begin to elaborate the language. And we've already taken some liberties. So I think what we will do is have this vote define the minimum of categories exponed simultaneously with TAM - users will be able to propose more once we address verbal morphology in detail.
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Re: Typological voting game

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About agreement.
Most languages not only have agreement with a participant marked on the verb;
Most languages have polypersonal agreement on verbs; that is, bivalent or >=2-valent verbs are marked to agree with >=2 of their participants.
When will we decide how many participants, max, a verb will agree with?
I’ll be in favor of a max of 3; I’ll like tervalent and >=3-valent verbs to agree with up to <=3 of their participants.
(The worldwide max appears to be 4.).
....
How about other bivalent or possible >=2-valent words other than verbs?
Some adpositions are bivalent.
Some adpositions are marked to agree with their object NPs.
Might we like bivalent adpositions to be marked to agree with up to two of their object NPs?
...
Are there such things as tervalent adpositions? Or any other non-verbs with valency more than two?
Will we allow any of them in this project?
...
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Re: Typological voting game

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Secondary Stress Type: A
Ch. 21b: E
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