An IE lang

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Omzinesý
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An IE lang

Post by Omzinesý »

I don't know if this project goes far. No matter.
I don't even know if the lang should be positioned somewhere near Germany or Volga. So this is very primary. Let it be located in Volga area. There are interesting areal features.


*bh -> ph -> f => h
*dh -> th -> ts
*g'h/gh/ghw -> kh -> x

(b -> v )
*d -> z
*g'/g/gw -> ɣ~ʁ

*p
*t
*k'/k/kw -> k

No change
s
n
m
l
r
j


This is thus a centum language. Labialized velars become normal velars but the labialization makes the following vowel rounded.

PIE *gwen -> ʁøn 'woman, wife'


p t t͡s k
s x~χ (h)
z ɣ~ʁ
m n nˠ ŋ
l lˠ r
ʋ j

<п т ц к>
<с х (')> (Traditionally there was a Greek-style spiritus aspis, but /h/ is rarely pronounced or written, in modern language.)
<з г>
<м н/нь н ?> (/n/ is written <н> in onset and <нь> in coda. /nˠ/ is written <н> in coda)
<л л/ль р> (The same for laterals)
<в й>

The velarized, /nˠ/ and /lˠ/ can only appear in coda.

y i u
ø e ə o
ä
Last edited by Omzinesý on 05 Dec 2020 20:13, edited 3 times in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Omzinesý
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Re: An IE lang

Post by Omzinesý »

Some grammar ideas

There are quite few real verbs: one rather 'makes preparation' than 'prepares'.
Real verbs have preserved the old PIE present, aorist and perfect, which rather has an imperfect meaning.

Nouns can, however, be inflected in person
gönga 'I am a woman'
gönta 'You are a woman'
gön 'is a woman'
gönsnos 'we are women'
gönsös 'you are women'
göns 'are women'
The old reduplication perfect has, however, spread to nouns as well.

gagönga 'I was a woman'
gagönta 'You were a woman'
gagön 'was a woman'
gagönsnos 'we were women'
gagönsös 'you were women'
gagöns 'were women'
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Omzinesý
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Re: An IE lang

Post by Omzinesý »

Nouns

- the three IE genders
They are agreement categories rather than inflectional categories.

- five cases: Nominative, Accusative, Dative, Ablative (might have another label), Vocative
Genitive functions are shared by Dative and Ablative somehow. Ablative might resemble Finnish Partitive and code mass nouns and indefinite plurals.

- I'm now thinking about definite suffix articles.
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Re: An IE lang

Post by Backstroke_Italics »

So far, this seems like quite a mish-mash.
* It's a centum language between Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian, which I guess is possible but maybe slightly weird.
* It retains all three tense/aspects, including the reduplicated perfect, which is very "eastern" (i.e. Greek, Indo-Iranian)
* Meanwhile it has the full e/a/o trinity left untouched, which is more typical of southern Europe.
* The inflected nouns are pretty wild. Are those just null-derived denominal verbs? Either way, is it deliberate that the perfect and the imperfect use the same endings?
* The sound changes feel very random and not indicative of the region. No aspiration of s or RUKI rule. Labialization moved to the vowel. A Greek-style /x, k, G/ realization of stop rows. Honestly, it sounds like you don't have any interest in placing the language in Eastern Europe. Why not just put it on a fictional island somewhere?
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Re: An IE lang

Post by Omzinesý »

Did you read my messages or did you just misunderstand? Half of what you criticize I've never said.
Backstroke_Italics wrote: 10 Dec 2020 19:00 So far, this seems like quite a mish-mash.
Remember to be polite. But yes, I'm not interested in making a new Serbo-Croatian.
Backstroke_Italics wrote: 10 Dec 2020 19:00 * It's a centum language between Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian, which I guess is possible but maybe slightly weird.
Satem/centum is not that areal. Tocharian! Languages generally go around much more than peoples.
Backstroke_Italics wrote: 10 Dec 2020 19:00 * It retains all three tense/aspects, including the reduplicated perfect, which is very "eastern" (i.e. Greek, Indo-Iranian)

It does not? It loses PIE Imperfect. The perfect taking the meanings of the imperfect is maybe typologically uncommon but not unnatural I think.
Backstroke_Italics wrote: 10 Dec 2020 19:00 Meanwhile it has the full e/a/o trinity left untouched, which is more typical of southern Europe.
Where do I say so?
Backstroke_Italics wrote: 10 Dec 2020 19:00 The inflected nouns are pretty wild. Are those just null-derived denominal verbs?
See Mordovian verbs! Turkic does not go far either. The endings are just ego, tu ... fused and appear in nouns only.
It's a matter of analyses if they are verbs or nouns or something between. But basically they are just a noun + pronoun, and analogically reduplicalian for Past.
Backstroke_Italics wrote: 10 Dec 2020 19:00 Either way, is it deliberate that the perfect and the imperfect use the same endings?
What do you even mean with "the perfect" and "the imperfect"? I have surely said nothing about their endings.

Backstroke_Italics wrote: 10 Dec 2020 19:00 The sound changes feel very random and not indicative of the region. No aspiration of s or RUKI rule. Labialization moved to the vowel. A Greek-style /x, k, G/ realization of stop rows.
OK. You are free to make a Serbo-Croatian.
Backstroke_Italics wrote: 10 Dec 2020 19:00
Honestly, it sounds like you don't have any interest in placing the language in Eastern Europe. Why not just put it on a fictional island somewhere?
Because there you cannot play with any influence.
Of course, this needs a fictional history. Conlangs are fiction.
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Backstroke_Italics
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Re: An IE lang

Post by Backstroke_Italics »

I'm not going to engage with... all that. I just think I should point out that this is not a great way to respond to feedback. If you feel attacked by feedback, maybe you should be writing all this in your journal. Good luck, and goodbye.
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Re: An IE lang

Post by Dormouse559 »

Backstroke_Italics wrote: 11 Dec 2020 08:25 I'm not going to engage with... all that. I just think I should point out that this is not a great way to respond to feedback. If you feel attacked by feedback, maybe you should be writing all this in your journal. Good luck, and goodbye.
Constructive feedback isn't usually a list of all the decisions someone else made that you don't agree with. Omzinesý isn't obligated to make a conlang the same way you would or to like it when you assume he is insincere.
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Re: An IE lang

Post by spanick »

Omzinesý wrote: 05 Dec 2020 20:00 Some grammar ideas

There are quite few real verbs: one rather 'makes preparation' than 'prepares'.
Real verbs have preserved the old PIE present, aorist and perfect, which rather has an imperfect meaning.

Nouns can, however, be inflected in person
gönga 'I am a woman'
gönta 'You are a woman'
gön 'is a woman'
gönsnos 'we are women'
gönsös 'you are women'
göns 'are women'
The old reduplication perfect has, however, spread to nouns as well.

gagönga 'I was a woman'
gagönta 'You were a woman'
gagön 'was a woman'
gagönsnos 'we were women'
gagönsös 'you were women'
gagöns 'were women'
Well there’s not much to go on yet, but I really love the aesthetic of this language.

I’m curious to see what kinds of influences being surrounded by Satem languages will have on your centum language.
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