Gallo-Tuscan

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ixals
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by ixals »

Isn't this problem solved by articles? Of course, only if Gallo-Tuscan uses articles before the possessive pronouns like Italian or, IIRC, it used an article after to' like all of the romlangs I know about: to' il pan (??) 'all the bread' vs. (il) tò pan 'your bread'.
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All4Ɇn
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

ixals wrote: 07 Sep 2021 20:07 Isn't this problem solved by articles? Of course, only if Gallo-Tuscan uses articles before the possessive pronouns like Italian or, IIRC, it used an article after to' like all of the romlangs I know about: to' il pan (??) 'all the bread' vs. (il) tò pan 'your bread'.
I chose not to use it alongside articles but maybe something like to’l pan could be used for disambiguation or using the definite article alongside a possessive could stress that it’s a possessive
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Dormouse559 »

All4Ɇn wrote: 07 Sep 2021 16:46The problem that I run into with these is that morphosyntactically I would expect these to behave like articles and adjectives, meaning that the single syllable forms would be pronounced as secondarily stressed clitics, meaning that <tò nóm> would not be pronounced /tɔ nõ/ like I indicated in the Lord's Prayer, but instead as /ˌtoˈnõ/. This additionally would mean the accent marks in the words are largely counterintuitive and would also cause tò to sound identical to to' meaning all: tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (your bread), to' pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (all the bread). I'm largely fine with these changes but want to know what other people think.
I don't think the ambiguity is much of an issue; it affects a rather specific set of forms, so the chance for confusion is contained.

On a more Celtic note: Does the apostrophe in to' represent an elided consonant? If so, maybe to' doesn't trigger lenition on the following word (tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ vs. to' pan /ˌtoˈbɑ̃/).
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All4Ɇn
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Dormouse559 wrote: 08 Sep 2021 07:43
All4Ɇn wrote: 07 Sep 2021 16:46The problem that I run into with these is that morphosyntactically I would expect these to behave like articles and adjectives, meaning that the single syllable forms would be pronounced as secondarily stressed clitics, meaning that <tò nóm> would not be pronounced /tɔ nõ/ like I indicated in the Lord's Prayer, but instead as /ˌtoˈnõ/. This additionally would mean the accent marks in the words are largely counterintuitive and would also cause tò to sound identical to to' meaning all: tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (your bread), to' pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (all the bread). I'm largely fine with these changes but want to know what other people think.
I don't think the ambiguity is much of an issue; it affects a rather specific set of forms, so the chance for confusion is contained.

On a more Celtic note: Does the apostrophe in to' represent an elided consonant? If so, maybe to' doesn't trigger lenition on the following word (tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ vs. to' pan /ˌtoˈbɑ̃/).
Dormouse, I am so excited right now I can’t contain myself! I never would’ve ever thought about introducing initial consonant mutations!!! This is an excellent idea and gives me much to think about. I am officially making this the rule with to’ at the very least :)
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Dormouse559 »

All4Ɇn wrote: 08 Sep 2021 17:49 Dormouse, I am so excited right now I can’t contain myself! I never would’ve ever thought about introducing initial consonant mutations!!! This is an excellent idea and gives me much to think about. I am officially making this the rule with to’ at the very least :)
[:D] [:D] That's wonderful! Looking forward to seeing where you might take this.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Words Preventing Metaphony / Demonstratives
As of right now there are 5 words which stop the lenition of an intervocalic, word-initial /b t k/ to /f θ h/. More will probably pop up along the way. Before going over them it's important to note that before a word final apostrophe, accent marks are never put on <e o> regardless of the pronunciation. Thus to' is /to/ and stressed po' is /bɔ/. As the words that fall into this category are typically unstressed, this problem doesn't come up much.

Ca'
The invariable determiner ca' means each/every and becomes cat before a word starting with a vowel. E.G: ca' pucella /ˌkɑ‿buˈt͡sɛlɑ/ (every girl)

Mo'
Mo' (from Latin modo and related to mod meaning style/manner) means now or first. From it comes the preposition mocché /moˈke/ meaning "now that". E.G: È mo' più frazì /ɛ mɔ bju fɾɑˈd͡zi/ (It's now worse)

Po'
Po' occurs either as part of the inflection paradigm below and means not much/not many/little/few or occurs in the expression un po' meaning a bit/a little/not much. E.G: Non ho po' tempe /ˌnon‿ˈo ˌfo‿ˈtɛ̃b/ (I don't have much time)

Masculine singular: po'/poc (before a vowel)
Feminine singular: pòca/poc' (before a vowel)
Masculine plural: poche
Feminine plural: pòche

To'
To' is a form of the adjective/pronoun tót (fully paradigm below) meaning all/all the/every/everything. E.G: To' carn è vernà /ˌto‿ˈkɑɾ ɛ veɾˈnɑ/ (All of the meat is rotten)
Masculine singular: to'/tót (before a vowel or always when used as a pronoun)
Feminine singular: tota/tot' (before a vowel)
Masculine plural: tôte
Feminine plural: tote

Zo'
Zo' is a form of the demonstrative zoc (full paradigm below) and is both the proximal and medial demonstrative pronoun/determiner. E.G: Ha ragarçà zo' Pataven /ɑ rɑŋɑɾˈt͡sɑ ˌd͡zo‿bɑθɑˈvɛ̃/ (He thanked that Paduan)
Masculine singular: zo'/zoc (before a vowel when a demonstrative)
Feminine singular: zòca/zoc' (before a vowel)
Masculine plural: zoche
Feminine plural: zòche


Quel
As I covered the proximal and medial demonstrative, I figured I'd go over the distal one too. This term does not stop consonant lenition
Masculine singular: Quel/Quello
Feminine singular: Quella/Quell'
Masculine plural: Quéglie/Quei
Feminine plural: Queglie/Quei
-Quell' is used before nouns starting with a vowel when used as a demonstrative
-Quello and Quei are used before /t͡s d͡z ɲ ʎ/, consonant clusters starting with /s/, and a number of other complex consonant clusters including many from Greek loans such as /ks bs bn bt/ when used as a demonstrative

Qui, Qua, Là, Lì
These four words are commonly used alongside demonstratives for stressing the location of something:
Qui: The main word for "here". Used alongside zo' to stress the proximal meaning: Zo' mistrol-qui (this boy)
Qua: Largely interchangeable with qui albeit less used. Most commonly seen in the expression qua e là (hither and thither) and for prosody reasons alongside singular feminine nouns: Zòca pucella-qua (this girl)
Là: Means "there" in the medial sense of the term, e.g: Zo' can-là (that dog (close to you))
Lì: Means "there" in the distal sense of the term. Used alongside quel to stress that an object is far from both the speaker and listener: quella curbe-lì (that basket over there)
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Dormouse559 »

All4Ɇn wrote: 09 Sep 2021 17:48 Words Preventing Metaphony / Demonstratives
[…]
Very cool!
Po' occurs either as part of the inflection paradigm below and means not much/not many/little/few or occurs in the expression un po' meaning a bit/a little/not much. E.G: Non ho po' tempe /ˌnon‿ˈo ˌfo‿ˈtɛ̃b/ (I don't have much time)
That's an intriguing twist, pairing po' with negative concord.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Dormouse559 wrote: 10 Sep 2021 07:47That's an intriguing twist, pairing po' with negative concord.
I didn't even think about that. :wat: Just seemed natural to do it with a negative particularly given "ne que" & "ne guère" in French. I imagine that it would also be seen unnegated when po' appears at the beginning of the sentence like in Spanish, or among some speakers due to influence from Italian.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Initial /mn bn kn bt bs/
In effort to avoid having to add a minor phoneme /p/ or even an allophone [p] into Gallo-Tuscan, I've decided to reach a sort of compromise between Spanish and Italian with how /mn bn kn bt bs/ <mn pn cn pt ps> are handled in the language. I looked for awhile and could not find any language with an initial [bt bs] and initial [bn] is significantly rarer than initial [ps]. Thus the only realistic paths for these sounds were either devoicing or dropping the consonant initially. Because /mn kn/ occur in the same sort of situations I've added them to this group too. Because words starting with these sounds typically occur after vowels (given their article forms etc.), I went with the following compromise:
1. When they occur after an oral vowel even across a word boundary they are pronounced as /mn bn kn bt bs/, e.g: li pschiatter /ˌlibsiˈkjɑteɾ/ (the psychiatrist)
2. When they occur anywhere else the initial sound is dropped, e.g: frequente psicologia /fɾeˈkwɛ̃t sikoloˈd͡ʒiɑ/ (I'm attending psychology). Given how uncommon it is, it's not something noticeable to many speakers, similar to how many speakers of English pronounce /ðz/ as just /z/ without really noticing it phonetically.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Numbers
All single syllable numbers when preceding a noun are pronounced as secondarily stressed clitics, and all numbers that end in a consonant sound and do not have a marked impure s form, are followed by the particle <ì> when before "impure s". This is identical to how adjectives work.

1
As expected, the forms of the number one also function as the indefinite articles

Masculine singular: un/uno
Feminine singular: una/un'
Plural of both genders: une/une ì
-Uno is used before impure s (i.e: /t͡s d͡z ɲ ʎ/, consonant clusters starting with /s/, and a number of other complex consonant clusters including many from Greek loans such as /ks bs bn bt/)
-Un' & Une ì are used before vowels
-Une is used either as a plural indefinite pronoun or as a plural indefinite article. Its use as an article is much more infrequent than in French or Spanish.


0, 2-19
Note that both unze and quinze feature the usually extremely rare combination of a nasal vowel followed by /d͡z/
0: Zèro
2: Dòi
3: Tre
4: Quattor/Quatr' (before vowels)/Quatr'ì (before "impure s")
5: Cincùe
6: Sèi
7: Sette
8: Otte/Otto (before "impure s")
9:
10: Diez
11: Unze
12: Dòze
13: Treze
14: Quattorize
15: Quinze
16: Seze
17: Diezessette
18: Diezotte/Diezotto (before "impure s")
19: Diezenò

20-29
The -e- in 22-27, 29 is pronounced as /e/ and is derived from the conjunction e
20: Vênte
21: Ventun
22: Ventedòi
23: Ventetré
24: Ventequattor/Ventequatr' (before vowels)/Ventequatr'ì (before "impure s")
25: Ventecincùe
26: Ventesèi
27: Ventessette
28: Ventotte/Ventotto (before "impure s")
29: Ventenò

30-99
Formed much in the same way as above with the -un and -otte forms dropping the final vowel of the tens place form, -tré taking a final accent mark, & -sette being spelled -ssette
30: Trénta
40: Quaranta
50: Cinquanta
60: Sesçanta (originally sessanta but became conflated with the word for 600)
70: Settanta
80: Ottanta
90: Novanta

100-999
Numbers 100-999 are all written together as a single word. This principle also applies for hundreds used in higher numbers (such as 300.000). The second form is form used before nouns or other numbers starting with a vowel. When the <é> is unstressed the accent is (as expected) removed. Note that the hundreds above 100 are plural and take a sort of metaphony
100: Cen/Cent
200: Dozén/Dozént
300: Trezén/Trezént
400: Quattorizén/Quattorizént
500: Cincucén/Cincucént
600: Sescén/Sescént
700: Settizén/Settizént
800: Ottocén/Ottocént
900: Nocén/Nocént

1000+
Numbers starting from a thousand are written separately with each string of a hundred written together as one word. Any single syllable number becomes an unstressed clitic on the number before it. E.G: nò migliône dozentun mille quarantotte (9.201.048). Numbers starting at a million do not function as numerals and are always followed by the preposition de when used attributively
1000: Mille
2000: Dòi mille (mille is the same in the singular and plural)
1.000.000: Miglión
2.000.000: Dòi migliône
1.000.000.000: Migliarde
2.000.000.000: Dòi migliarde
1.000.000.000.000: Biglión
2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
1.000.000.000.000.000 Bigliarde
2.000.000.000.000.000 Dòi bigliarde

Question
Trying to figure out what to do about the number . Before a vowel the expected form would be nov' but this causes it to sound the same as the word for new in the same situation. Any suggestions on what I should do here? Also, should I add nò to the group of words that stops lenition and potentially spell it as no'?
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 21 Sep 2021 14:57, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Khemehekis »

All4Ɇn wrote: 19 Sep 2021 20:27 2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
Is there some difference between the two that I'm missing?
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Khemehekis wrote: 20 Sep 2021 00:34
All4Ɇn wrote: 19 Sep 2021 20:27 2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
Is there some difference between the two that I'm missing?
Whoops! Accidentally repeated that one
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