Gallo-Tuscan

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ixals
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by ixals »

Isn't this problem solved by articles? Of course, only if Gallo-Tuscan uses articles before the possessive pronouns like Italian or, IIRC, it used an article after to' like all of the romlangs I know about: to' il pan (??) 'all the bread' vs. (il) tò pan 'your bread'.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

ixals wrote: 07 Sep 2021 20:07 Isn't this problem solved by articles? Of course, only if Gallo-Tuscan uses articles before the possessive pronouns like Italian or, IIRC, it used an article after to' like all of the romlangs I know about: to' il pan (??) 'all the bread' vs. (il) tò pan 'your bread'.
I chose not to use it alongside articles but maybe something like to’l pan could be used for disambiguation or using the definite article alongside a possessive could stress that it’s a possessive
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Dormouse559 »

All4Ɇn wrote: 07 Sep 2021 16:46The problem that I run into with these is that morphosyntactically I would expect these to behave like articles and adjectives, meaning that the single syllable forms would be pronounced as secondarily stressed clitics, meaning that <tò nóm> would not be pronounced /tɔ nõ/ like I indicated in the Lord's Prayer, but instead as /ˌtoˈnõ/. This additionally would mean the accent marks in the words are largely counterintuitive and would also cause tò to sound identical to to' meaning all: tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (your bread), to' pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (all the bread). I'm largely fine with these changes but want to know what other people think.
I don't think the ambiguity is much of an issue; it affects a rather specific set of forms, so the chance for confusion is contained.

On a more Celtic note: Does the apostrophe in to' represent an elided consonant? If so, maybe to' doesn't trigger lenition on the following word (tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ vs. to' pan /ˌtoˈbɑ̃/).
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Dormouse559 wrote: 08 Sep 2021 07:43
All4Ɇn wrote: 07 Sep 2021 16:46The problem that I run into with these is that morphosyntactically I would expect these to behave like articles and adjectives, meaning that the single syllable forms would be pronounced as secondarily stressed clitics, meaning that <tò nóm> would not be pronounced /tɔ nõ/ like I indicated in the Lord's Prayer, but instead as /ˌtoˈnõ/. This additionally would mean the accent marks in the words are largely counterintuitive and would also cause tò to sound identical to to' meaning all: tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (your bread), to' pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (all the bread). I'm largely fine with these changes but want to know what other people think.
I don't think the ambiguity is much of an issue; it affects a rather specific set of forms, so the chance for confusion is contained.

On a more Celtic note: Does the apostrophe in to' represent an elided consonant? If so, maybe to' doesn't trigger lenition on the following word (tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ vs. to' pan /ˌtoˈbɑ̃/).
Dormouse, I am so excited right now I can’t contain myself! I never would’ve ever thought about introducing initial consonant mutations!!! This is an excellent idea and gives me much to think about. I am officially making this the rule with to’ at the very least :)
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Dormouse559 »

All4Ɇn wrote: 08 Sep 2021 17:49 Dormouse, I am so excited right now I can’t contain myself! I never would’ve ever thought about introducing initial consonant mutations!!! This is an excellent idea and gives me much to think about. I am officially making this the rule with to’ at the very least :)
[:D] [:D] That's wonderful! Looking forward to seeing where you might take this.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Words Preventing Lenition / Demonstratives
As of right now there are 7 words which stop the lenition of an intervocalic, word-initial /b t k/ to /f θ h/. More will probably pop up along the way and I'll add them to this post when they do. Before going over them it's important to note that before a word final apostrophe, accent marks are never put on <e o> regardless of the pronunciation. Thus to' is /to/ and stressed po' is /bɔ/. As the words that fall into this category are typically unstressed, this problem doesn't come up much.

Ca'
The invariable determiner ca' means each/every and becomes cat before a word starting with a vowel. E.G: ca' pucella /ˌkɑ‿buˈt͡sɛlɑ/ (every girl)

I'
This word, i', is a colloquial form of the definitive article il. Its use is largely discouraged but it does still occur and most commonly before /b (/P/) t k/ as the blocking of lenition prevents any confusion with the plural form alongside these consonants

Mo'
Mo' (from Latin modo and related to mod meaning style/manner) means now or first. From it comes the preposition mocché /moˈke/ meaning "now that". E.G: È mo' più frazì /ɛ mɔ bju fɾɑˈd͡zi/ (It's now worse)

No'
No' is a form of the number nòve meaning nine and is discussed more in detail in the numbers post below

Po'
Po' occurs either as part of the inflection paradigm below and means not much/not many/little/few or occurs in the expression un po' meaning a bit/a little/not much. E.G: Non ho po' tempe /ˌnon‿ˈo ˌfo‿ˈtɛ̃b/ (I don't have much time)

Masculine singular: po'/poc (before a vowel)
Feminine singular: pòca/poc' (before a vowel)
Masculine plural: poche
Feminine plural: pòche

To'
To' is a form of the adjective/pronoun tót (fully paradigm below) meaning all/all the/every/everything. E.G: To' carn è vernà /ˌto‿ˈkɑɾ ɛ veɾˈnɑ/ (All of the meat is rotten)
Masculine singular: to'/tót (before a vowel or always when used as a pronoun)
Feminine singular: tota/tot' (before a vowel)
Masculine plural: tôte
Feminine plural: tote

Zo'
Zo' is a form of the demonstrative zoc (full paradigm below) and is both the proximal and medial demonstrative pronoun/determiner. E.G: Ha ragarçà zo' Pataven /ɑ rɑŋɑɾˈt͡sɑ ˌd͡zo‿bɑθɑˈvɛ̃/ (He thanked that Paduan)
Masculine singular: zo'/zoc (before a vowel when a demonstrative)
Feminine singular: zòca/zoc' (before a vowel)
Masculine plural: zoche
Feminine plural: zòche


Quel
As I covered the proximal and medial demonstrative, I figured I'd go over the distal one too. This term does not stop consonant lenition
Masculine singular: Quel/Quello
Feminine singular: Quella/Quell'
Masculine plural: Quéglie/Quei
Feminine plural: Queglie/Quei
-Quell' is used before nouns starting with a vowel when used as a demonstrative
-Quello and Quei are used before /t͡s d͡z ɲ ʎ/, consonant clusters starting with /s/, and a number of other complex consonant clusters including many from Greek loans such as /ks bs bn bt/ when used as a demonstrative

Qui, Qua, Là, Lì
These four words are commonly used alongside demonstratives for stressing the location of something:
Qui: The main word for "here". Used alongside zo' to stress the proximal meaning: Zo' mistrol-qui (this boy)
Qua: Largely interchangeable with qui albeit less used. Most commonly seen in the expression qua e là (hither and thither) and for prosody reasons alongside singular feminine nouns: Zòca pucella-qua (this girl)
Là: Means "there" in the medial sense of the term, e.g: Zo' can-là (that dog (close to you))
Lì: Means "there" in the distal sense of the term. Used alongside quel to stress that an object is far from both the speaker and listener: quella curbe-lì (that basket over there)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 03 Nov 2021 15:21, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Dormouse559 »

All4Ɇn wrote: 09 Sep 2021 17:48 Words Preventing Metaphony / Demonstratives
[…]
Very cool!
Po' occurs either as part of the inflection paradigm below and means not much/not many/little/few or occurs in the expression un po' meaning a bit/a little/not much. E.G: Non ho po' tempe /ˌnon‿ˈo ˌfo‿ˈtɛ̃b/ (I don't have much time)
That's an intriguing twist, pairing po' with negative concord.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Dormouse559 wrote: 10 Sep 2021 07:47That's an intriguing twist, pairing po' with negative concord.
I didn't even think about that. :wat: Just seemed natural to do it with a negative particularly given "ne que" & "ne guère" in French. I imagine that it would also be seen unnegated when po' appears at the beginning of the sentence like in Spanish, or among some speakers due to influence from Italian.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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Initial /mn bn kn bt bs/
In effort to avoid having to add a minor phoneme /p/ or even an allophone [p] into Gallo-Tuscan, I've decided to reach a sort of compromise between Spanish and Italian with how /mn bn kn bt bs/ <mn pn cn pt ps> are handled in the language. I looked for awhile and could not find any language with an initial [bt bs] and initial [bn] is significantly rarer than initial [pn]. Thus the only realistic paths for these sounds were either devoicing or dropping the consonant initially. Because /mn kn/ occur in the same sort of situations I've added them to this group too. Because words starting with these sounds typically occur after vowels (given their article forms etc.), I went with the following compromise:
1. When they occur after an oral vowel even across a word boundary they are pronounced as /mn bn kn bt bs/, e.g: li pschiatter /ˌlibsiˈkjɑteɾ/ (the psychiatrist)
2. When they occur anywhere else the initial sound is dropped, e.g: frequente psicologia /fɾeˈkwɛ̃t sikoloˈd͡ʒiɑ/ (I'm attending psychology). Given how uncommon it is, it's not something noticeable to many speakers, similar to how many speakers of English pronounce /ðz/ as just /z/ without really noticing it phonetically.
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 17 Oct 2021 22:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Numbers
All single syllable numbers when preceding a noun are pronounced as secondarily stressed clitics, and all numbers that end in a consonant sound and do not have a marked impure s form, are followed by the particle <ì> when before "impure s". This is identical to how adjectives work.

1
As expected, the forms of the number one also function as the indefinite articles

Masculine singular: un/uno
Feminine singular: una/un'
Plural of both genders: une/une ì
-Uno & Une ì are used before impure s (i.e: /t͡s d͡z ɲ ʎ/, consonant clusters starting with /s/, and a number of other complex consonant clusters including many from Greek loans such as /ks bs bn bt/)
-Un' is used before vowels
-Une is used either as a plural indefinite pronoun or as a plural indefinite article. Its use as an article is much more infrequent than in French or Spanish.


0, 2-19
Note that both unze and quinze feature the usually extremely rare combination of a nasal vowel followed by /d͡z/
0: Zèro
2: Dòi
3: Tre
4: Quattor/Quatr' (before vowels)/Quatr'ì (before "impure s")
5: Cincùe
6: Sèi
7: Sette
8: Otte/Otto (before "impure s")
9: Nòve/No' (before any noun not starting with a vowel, words ending in no' are stressed on the last syllable and block lenition)
10: Dièze
11: Unze
12: Dòze
13: Treze
14: Quattorize
15: Quinze
16: Seze
17: Diezessette
18: Diezotte/Diezotto (before "impure s")
19: Diezenòve/Diezeno' (before any noun not starting with a vowel, words ending in no' are stressed on the last syllable and block lenition)

20-29
The -e- in 22-27, 29 is pronounced as /e/ and is derived from the conjunction e
20: Vênte
21: Ventun
22: Ventedòi
23: Ventetré
24: Ventequattor/Ventequatr' (before vowels)/Ventequatr'ì (before "impure s")
25: Ventecincùe
26: Ventesèi
27: Ventessette
28: Ventotte/Ventotto (before "impure s")
29: Ventenòve/Venteno' (before any noun not starting with a vowel, words ending in no' are stressed on the last syllable and block lenition)

30-99
Formed much in the same way as above with the -un and -otte forms dropping the final vowel of the tens place form, -tré taking a final accent mark, -sette being spelled -ssette, & -nòve becoming -no' before a noun not starting with a vowel and consonant stopping lenition.
30: Trénta
40: Quaranta
50: Cinquanta
60: Sesçanta (originally sessanta but became conflated with the word for 600)
70: Settanta
80: Ottanta
90: Novanta

100-999
Numbers 100-999 are all written together as a single word. This principle also applies for hundreds used in higher numbers (such as 300.000). The second form is form used before nouns or other numbers starting with a vowel. When the <é> is unstressed the accent is (as expected) removed. Note that the hundreds above 100 are plural and take a sort of metaphony
100: Cen/Cent
200: Dozén/Dozént
300: Trezén/Trezént
400: Quattorizén/Quattorizént
500: Cincucén/Cincucént
600: Sescén/Sescént
700: Settizén/Settizént
800: Ottocén/Ottocént
900: Nocén/Nocént

1000+
Numbers starting from a thousand are written separately with each string of a hundred written together as one word. Any single syllable number becomes an unstressed clitic on the number before it. E.G: no' migliône dozentun mille quarantotte (9.201.048). Numbers starting at a million do not function as numerals and are always followed by the preposition de when used attributively
1000: Mille
2000: Dòi mille (mille is the same in the singular and plural)
1.000.000: Miglión
2.000.000: Dòi migliône
1.000.000.000: Migliarde
2.000.000.000: Dòi migliarde
1.000.000.000.000: Biglión
2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
1.000.000.000.000.000 Bigliarde
2.000.000.000.000.000 Dòi bigliarde

Obsolete
Spoiler:
Question
Trying to figure out what to do about the number . Before a vowel the expected form would be nov' but this causes it to sound the same as the word for new in the same situation. Any suggestions on what I should do here? Also, should I add nò to the group of words that stops lenition and potentially spell it as no'?
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 03 Nov 2022 07:38, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Khemehekis »

All4Ɇn wrote: 19 Sep 2021 20:27 2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
Is there some difference between the two that I'm missing?
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Khemehekis wrote: 20 Sep 2021 00:34
All4Ɇn wrote: 19 Sep 2021 20:27 2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
2.000.000.000.000: Dòi bigliône
Is there some difference between the two that I'm missing?
Whoops! Accidentally repeated that one
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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All4Ɇn wrote: 19 Sep 2021 20:27Question
Trying to figure out what to do about the number . Before a vowel the expected form would be nov' but this causes it to sound the same as the word for new in the same situation. Any suggestions on what I should do here? Also, should I add nò to the group of words that stops lenition and potentially spell it as no'?
I wouldn't worry about the ambiguity. It occurred to me the other day that French has sept choses "seven things" vs. cette chose "this thing" and does fine. And I say "yea" to having block lenition.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Dormouse559 wrote: 01 Oct 2021 08:36I wouldn't worry about the ambiguity. It occurred to me the other day that French has sept choses "seven things" vs. cette chose "this thing" and does fine. And I say "yea" to having block lenition.
I've never noticed that before with French before! I've made the changes to the previous post concerning this :). Sorry for the long wait, I've been taking a conlanging break for a few weeks
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Farm Animals
Here are the words for various farm animals in Gallo-Tuscan [:)]. For each grouping the top one is the generic word for the animal while those after are used for gender specific meanings. It's worth pointing out that in Gallo-Tuscan every animal young is feminine.

Asen- Donkey (m)
Asna- Female Donkey (f)
Asnina- Donkey Foal (f)

Can- Dog (m)
Cagna- Bitch (f)
Cacella- Puppy (f)

Caval- Horse (m)
Cavalla- Mare (f)
Vallina- Foal/Colt/Filly (f)

Chepra- Goat/Nanny Goat (f)
Boc- Billy Goat (m)
Capreta- Kid (f)

Conecie- Rabbit (m)
Conecia- Female Rabbit (f)
Conecieta- Bunny (f)

Gatta- Cat (f)
Gat- Tomcat (m)
Miaseta- Kitten (f)

Òca- Goose (f)
Ocón- Gander (m)
Ocheta- Gosling (f)

Pabressa- Duck (f)
Paber- Drake (m)
Pabrina- Duckling (f)

Pau- Turkey or Tom Turkey (m)
Pavella- Turkey Hen (f) (also typically used for the meat)
Pavina- Turkey Chick (f)

Polen- Chicken (m)
Gal- Rooster (m)
Gallina- Hen (f)
Potrella- Chick (f)

Porc- Pig (m)
Lotessa- Sow (m)
Porcella- Piglet (f)

Rabecia- Sheep or Ewe (f)
Cornà- Ram (m)
Agnella- Lamb (f)

Vaca- Cow (f)
Torrón- Bull (m)
Bòi- Ox (m)
Vetella- Calf or Veal (f)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 03 Nov 2021 15:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Added another word that blocks lenition in the form of the colloquial definite article i'

Another random question, how should I go about referring to /b/ when used as /P/'s unlenited form?
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Preposition Contractions
A few common prepositions contract with the various forms of the definite article

A- To/At
A+Il= Al
A+L'= Al
A+Li= Alli
A+La= Alla
A+I= Ai
Note: This preposition becomes ad before a vowel

Con- With
Con+Il= Col
Con+L'= Col
Con+Li= Colli
Con+La= Colla
Con+I= Coi
Note: This preposition becomes co' before /t͡s d͡z ɲ ʎ/, consonant clusters starting with /s/, and a number of other complex consonant clusters including many from Greek loans such as /ks bs bn bt/

De- Of/From
De+Il= Del
De+L'= Del
De+Li= Delli
De+La= Della
De+I= Dei
Note: This preposition becomes d' before a vowel

In- In/Inside Of
In+Il= Nel
In+L'= Nel
In+Li= Nelli
In+La= Nella
In+I= Nei
Note: This preposition becomes ne' before /t͡s d͡z ɲ ʎ/, consonant clusters starting with /s/, and a number of other complex consonant clusters including many from Greek loans such as /ks bs bn bt/, e.g: ne' zuttà (in the city)

Per- For/By
Per+Il= Pel
Per+L'= Pel
Per+Li= Pelli
Per+La= Pella
Per+I= Pei

Su- On/On Top Of
Su+Il= Sul
Su+L'= Sul
Su+Li= Sulli
Su+La= Sulla
Su+I= Sui


Demonstrative Pronouns
These are the pronouns that can be translated variously as the one/that one/he (who)/she (who)/those etc. and are frequently used alongside subordinate clauses

Masculine singular: licì
Feminine singular: lacì
Plural of both genders: icì

Because this pronoun consists of a form of the definite article followed by ci, they also contract with prepositions in the same way as the definite articles: a+licì = allicì, in+icì= neicì etc.


Partitive Article
Gallo-Tuscan does not maintain a partitive article with the sole exception of the verb magar (to eat) which requires a contraction with the preposition de when saying that one is eating part of something. Compare the following:
Maghe il polen- I eat chicken (meaning as a statement of fact, similar to the use of the definite article in French)
Maghe del polen- I eat (some) chicken/I'm eating some chicken
Maghe polene- I'm eating chickens
Maghe i polene- I eat chickens
Vorré polen- I would like (some) chicken
Beve aqua- I'm drinking some water
Beve l'aqua- I drink water
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 23 Jul 2022 08:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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I Giôrne del edemà (The Days of the Week)

*Lundì- Monday
Mardì- Tuesday
Miercordì- Wednesday
Giodì- Thursday
Vendrì- Friday
Sandì- Saturday
Diménga- Sunday

*Traditionally this word was lunì in Gallo-Tuscan but due to influence from French and Italian, as well as to keep it in line with the rest of the days of the week containing /d/, lundì eventually took over. Some older speakers may still pronounce this word as though it was lunì but the spelling lundì is universal
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Just added the slightly irregular plural for water to the plurals section earlier. Here it is repeated:
Aqua /ˈɑkwɑ/ -> Acùe /ɑˈhu/
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

-Al vs. -Ale Adjectives
This post is an addendum to an earlier one about the two groups of adjectives in Gallo-Tuscan
Spoiler:
Group 2
Group 2 consists of some holdouts from the Latin third declension which haven't regularized the feminine ending. Examples include forte (strong), triste (sad), and dolce (sweet). There are only two distinct possible forms:
The Latin adjective ending -ālis has developed two possible forms in Gallo-Tuscan: -al and -ale which are pronounced identically but differ grammatically. -al is the inherited form, creates group 1 adjectives (they take the feminine -a), and is used for a fairly small number of adjectives compared to -ale. -ale is borrowed directly from Latin and forms group 2 adjectives.

The lack of the feminine -a in the Latin, Italian, & modern French equivalents of this ending hindered the widespread adaption of -a as an analogous feminine ending in the majority of -al adjectives. Some more common adjectives did however develop the analogous ending, with these being spelled -al while the spelling -ale caught on as a way to indicate the adjective belonged to group 2.

Examples:
Agual/Aguala- Equal
Leal/Leala- Loyal/Faithful
Real/Reala- Royal/Kingly

Estivale- Summer (as an adjective)
Regale- Royal/Regal
Reale- Real
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