Gallo-Tuscan

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All4Ɇn
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Imperfect Subjunctive
The imperfect subjunctive is formed by taking the 1p stem and adding the following endings. Neither the /t/ -> /t͡s/ change nor the -esc- infix occur in this tense.
1s: -asse/-esse/-isse/-pîsse
2s: -asses/-ésses/-isses/-pîsses
3s: -asse/-esse/-isse/-pîsse
1p: -assons/-essons/-issons/-pîssons
2p: -asset/-esset/-isset/-pîsset
3p: -asson/-esson/-isson/-pîsson

Sample Verbs: Smutar/Terger/Partir/Aprir/Empîr
Spoiler:
1s: Smutasse/Tergesse/Partisse/Aprisse/Empîsse
2s: Smutasses/Tergésses/Partisses/Aprisses/Empîsses
3s: Smutasse/Tergesse/Partisse/Aprisse/Empîsse
1p: Smutassons/Tergessons/Partissons/Aprissons/Empîssons
2p: Smutasset/Tergesset/Partisset/Aprisset/Empîsset
3p: Smutasson/Tergesson/Partisson/Aprisson/Empîsson
Irregular Verbs
1. Both Dar and Star are completely regular in this tense unlike most tenses
2. Potér/Venir/Tenir/Volér use the irregular stems pot-/ven-/ten-/vol-
3. Esser and Agliar are completely irregular:
1s: Fosse/Isse
2s: Fósses/Isses
3s: Fosse/Isse
1p: Fossons/Issons
2p: Fosset/Isset
3p: Fosson/Isson

Use of the Imperfect Subjunctive
The imperfect subjunctive's use is fairly similar to that of Italian:
1. After se and alongside the conditional: se fosse mistrol "if I were a boy"
2. To express the subjunctive when the main verb is in a past tense or the conditional: èra spresse che non venisses "I was sad that you didn't come"
3. To express the subjunctive when the main verb is in the present and the subjunctive verb is used in an imperfect case (habitual, ongoing etc.): me pianghe che piovesse tôte giôrne "I'm mad that it rained every day

Because the imperfect subjunctive is used alongside the present tense in the 3rd use in addition to other uses, and the past subjunctive (present subjunctive + past participle) is only used alongside the present tense in perfect cases (completed etc.), the imperfect subjunctive has also largely taken over the past subjunctive. With the exception of expressing something happen "by" another time such as in commands/orders/etc, the imperfect subjunctive can always replace the present subjunctive but the opposite is never the case.
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 18 Aug 2021 02:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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Future/Conditional
I'm going to breeze through this because it's so similar to other Romance languages and the perfect tenses are much more interesting. The future/conditional stem is formed by taking the infinitive and adding the following ends (left for future, right for conditional):
1s: -ò/-é
2s: -ai/-és
3s: -à/-é
1p: -ons/-ans
2p: -et/-at
3p: -on/-an

Irregular Stems
Agliar: Ir-
Avér: Avr-
Chèrer (Need/Require): Cherr-
Esser: Sar-
Potér: Potr-
Sapér: Sapr-
Tenir: Terr-
Venir: Verr- (not to be confused with vér's regular future/conditional stem of ver-)
Viver: Vivr-
Volér: Vorr-
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 18 Aug 2021 09:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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Perfect Tenses
Discounting the present perfect (which functions closer to a preterite) there are 7 perfect verb forms. These are formed by conjugating the respective auxiliary verb in the appropriate tense and then following it with the past participle of the verb in question. The perfect tenses and their a-perfect equivalents (I'm not sure what the correct phrase here is as imperfect seems wrong) are shown below:
Pluperfect: Present Perfect
Past Subjunctive: Present Subjunctive (typically replaced by the imperfect subjunctive unless a commander or expressing an action being done by a specific time)
Pluperfect Subjunctive: Imperfect Subjunctive
Future Perfect: Future
Conditional Perfect: Conditional
Imperative Perfect: Imperative
Past Infinitive: Infinitive

Use of the Perfect Tenses
While individual tenses will have (use of perfect here completely coincidental) their own separate meanings in general the perfect tenses are used, as you would expect, to indicate that an action occurred before another one. Very important to note, however, that unlike in French and even more so in Italian, the perfect forms are only used when context does not provide adequate information to deduce this being the case. The most obvious case of this is alongside the preposition depò & conjunction depò che (both mean "after"):
:con: Lo farò depò partirne
:fra: Je le ferai après en être parti
Both of these sentences translate to "I will do it after I leave" but in Gallo-Tuscan the present infinitive is used instead of the past infinitive like in French. Because the preposition depò tells us that the event is occurring afterwards, there's no need to put it in the perfect form.

Lo farò quand en partirai
Lo farò quand en sarai partì
Both of these sentences translate to "I will do do it when you leave" but in the sentence sentence the addition of the future perfect specifies that the action will be done after the person's left not potentially simultaneously as the first sentence may potentially mean.

Garcìe de farlo - Thanks for doing it (something ongoing)
Garcìe d'avér fattilo- Thanks for doing/having done it (something already done)

The preposition por and its related conjunction porché (both mean "before") are typically preceded by a-perfect tenses:
Lo finirò porché arrives- I will finish it before you arrive
(Note that arrives is in the present subjunctive because there is no future subjunctive and all possible instances of a future subjunctive are assumed into the present subjunctive)

However, por/porché are also used alongside perfect tenses and when used alongside these tenses the meaning changes slightly from "before" to "by/by the time that"
L'avrò finì porché arrives- I will finish it by the time you arrive


Specific Perfect Tense Uses
1. The pluperfect is used alongside sé "if" to express wishes of past actions: Sé zi èra aglià "if only I had gone there."
2. The pluperfect subjunctive and past conditional are used in conjunction for conditional 3: Sé zi avesse parià co' lor, saran essùe men triste "if I had spoken with them, they would have been less sad."
3. The present conditional can be used much like in French to express an uncertain/alleged action. The perfect conditional is used to express this use of the tense in the past: Avré vizù in Nappel por la guerra "he allegedly lived in Naples before the war"
4. The future perfect expresses hypotheticals and is often translated to must have: Avrà contà un bel sóld "it must've been worth a lot of money" (literally: it will have counted a pretty penny)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 21 Aug 2021 15:02, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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All4Ɇn wrote: 17 Aug 2021 23:41a-perfect equivalents (I'm not sure what the correct phrase here is as imperfect seems wrong)
Think I usually say "nonperfect".
:fra: Je le ferai après en être partir
This is probably a typo, but just FYI [:D]
The preposition por and its related conjunction porché (both mean "before") are typically preceded by a-perfect tenses:
Lo finirò porché arrives- I will finish it before you arrive
(Note that arrives is in the present subjunctive because there is no future subjunctive and all possible instances of a future subjunctive are assumed into the present subjunctive)
Does the subjunctive have perfect forms, and can they be used in the subordinate clause of porché?

Another well thought-out post! :mrgreen:
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Dormouse559 wrote: 18 Aug 2021 01:25Think I usually say "nonperfect".
[tick] [:D]
Dormouse559 wrote: 18 Aug 2021 01:25This is probably a typo, but just FYI [:D]
Thanks for pointing this out it was definitely a typo!
Dormouse559 wrote: 18 Aug 2021 01:25Does the subjunctive have perfect forms, and can they be used in the subordinate clause of porché?
Thanks for bringing this up because this case specifically is kind of confusing now that I think about it and I misspoke a bit. I'll go back to the list of verbs and add it. If the main verb is in the present tense, the perfect form of the subjunctive is the past subjunctive but confusingly the past subjunctive can virtually always be replaced by the imperfect subjunctive except with giving orders, commands, etc. or when expressing that something happens by the time another event happens (in other words alongside por/porché). If the main verb is in a past tense or the conditional, the perfect form is instead the pluperfect subjunctive. So alongside porché when meaning "by the time that" it's always either the past subjunctive or the pluperfect subjunctive, but considering the past subjunctive's slowly being overtaken by the imperfect subjunctive there would certainly be people using that instead too even if it's not technically correct [;)]
Dormouse559 wrote: 18 Aug 2021 01:25Another well thought-out post! :mrgreen:
Garcìe Gir! (gir is dormouse in Gallo-Tuscan)
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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All4Ɇn wrote: 18 Aug 2021 02:00Thanks for bringing this up because this case specifically is kind of confusing now that I think about it and I misspoke a bit. […]
Sounds about par for the course with subjunctive tenses! Thanks for going into detail on that. Languages in and around the Gallo-Italic range do like the imperfect subjunctive, don't they? It's replaced the present subjunctive in some Arpitan varieties.

Dormouse559 wrote: 18 Aug 2021 01:25Another well thought-out post! :mrgreen:
Garcìe Gir! (gir is dormouse in Gallo-Tuscan)
[:3] A reférï. (You're welcome.)

EDIT: I had another question that I forgot to ask: What form is used when expressing "What if …?"
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Dormouse559 wrote: 18 Aug 2021 18:52It's replaced the present subjunctive in some Arpitan varieties.
I haven't heard of this actually! If you have any sources for it I'd love to read it.
Dormouse559 wrote: 18 Aug 2021 18:52I had another question that I forgot to ask: What form is used when expressing "What if …?"
Typically the imperfect subjunctive but if the added nuance "by then" is wanted or if it's followed by por/porché with the meaning of "by" then the pluperfect subjunctive is used:
E sé issons a Canadà?- What if we went to Canada?
E sé fossons agliàe a Canadà?- What if we went to Canada by then?

Another thing I want to note is that the use of the sé + pluperfect only works for expressing wishes of past actions. Otherwise you have to switch to the pluperfect subjunctive:
Sé zi èra aglià- If only I had gone there
Sé zi fosse aglià, saré essù contente- If I had gone there, I would've been happy
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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All4Ɇn wrote: 21 Aug 2021 15:04
Dormouse559 wrote: 18 Aug 2021 18:52It's replaced the present subjunctive in some Arpitan varieties.
I haven't heard of this actually! If you have any sources for it I'd love to read it.
Of course! Here's a link to the conjugation of âmâ "love" in Savoyard varieties. Look near the bottom of the page for "Subj. prés." This note is comes after the forms:
Dans beaucoup de villages […], le subj. prés., reste d'un parler très ancien, n'est plus employé ; il se confond avec le subj. imp., le seul employé aujourd'hui ; comme en français où le subj. imp. est remplacé par le subj. prés., de même ici le subj. prés. est remplacé par le subj. imp..

[In many villages, the present subjunctive, what remains of a very old way of speaking, is no longer used; it gets confused with the imperfect subjunctive, the only form used nowadays; like in French, where the imperfect subjunctive is replaced with the present subjunctive, in this case, the present subjunctive is replaced with the imperfect subjunctive.]
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Dormouse559 wrote: 21 Aug 2021 22:04Dans beaucoup de villages […], le subj. prés., reste d'un parler très ancien, n'est plus employé ; il se confond avec le subj. imp., le seul employé aujourd'hui ; comme en français où le subj. imp. est remplacé par le subj. prés., de même ici le subj. prés. est remplacé par le subj. imp..
I never would've made the connection between this and French doing the opposite & replacing the imperfect subjunctive with the present subjunctive!
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

4 Major Stem Changes
I know I'm in the middle of verbs right now, but this is something I thought I'd bring up. The first two changes apply to verbs and are completely regular phonotactically but I still thought would be worth going over. The later two can't easily be guessed by phonetics.

/ɛ ɛ̃ ɔ ɔ̃/ -> /e ẽ o õ/
All stems with a stressed vowel that is one of /ɛ ɛ̃ ɔ ɔ̃/, will pronounce them instead as /e ẽ o õ/ whenever they occur in an unstressed syllable. This can most easily be seen in verbs, as the infinitive typically does not indicate which of the two sounds a verb will take:
meciar /meˈt͡ʃɑ/ (to mix) -> mècia /ˈmɛt͡ʃɑ/ (he mixes)

Addition of epenthetic /e/
All stems ending in a complex noun cluster separate the cluster with an /e/ whenever it occurs word finally. I mentioned this with feminine plurals but it's a universal rule. For now all of the words this applies to have a stem ending in Cl or Cɾ but I'm not 100% sure if other clusters might show up in other words or not.
lucrar /luˈkɾɑ/ (to earn) -> lucchere /ˈlukeɾ/ (I earn)

/ɛ/ -> /ɑ/
Nouns which underwent the change of /ɑ/ to /ɛ/ in closed syllables often keep them as /ɑ/ when the vowel is unstressed in derived terms. This never applies to verbs and most commonly occurs with diminutives, augmentatives, and nouns derived from adjectives:
ègher /ˈɛŋeɾ/ (sour) -> agritù /ɑŋriˈθu/ (sourness/sharpness)
chepra /ˈkɛbɾɑ/ (goat) -> capreta /kɑˈbreθɑ/ (kid or goat DIM)
ciève /t͡ʃɛv/ (key) -> ciaveta /t͡ʃɑˈveθɑ/ (car key or key DIM)
lette /lɛt/ (milk) -> lattin /lɑˈtĩ/ (milk DIM)
mègher /ˈmɛŋeɾ/ (thin/skinny) -> magreça /mɑŋˈret͡sɑ/ (thinness/skinniness)

/fjo fjɔ bjo~fjo bjɔ~fjɔ/ -> /fi bi~fi/
Nouns with a stressed syllable containing either /fjo fjɔ/ or the arch-phoneme P's realizations of /bjo~fjo bjɔ~fjɔ/ turn them into /fi/ and /bi~fi/ when a stressed diminutive or augmentative ending is added. I like to call this the "Firenze rule" as it's the same sound change found in that word.
fioc /fjɔc/ (flock/tuft) -> fichet /fiˈhɛt/ (snowflake)
fiór /fjoɾ/ (flower) -> firón /fiˈɾõ/ (flower AUG)
piogia /ˈbjod͡ʒɑ/ (rain) -> pigeta /biˈd͡ʒeθa/ (rain DIM)
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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All4Ɇn wrote: 23 Aug 2021 20:09
Dormouse559 wrote: 21 Aug 2021 22:04Dans beaucoup de villages […], le subj. prés., reste d'un parler très ancien, n'est plus employé ; il se confond avec le subj. imp., le seul employé aujourd'hui ; comme en français où le subj. imp. est remplacé par le subj. prés., de même ici le subj. prés. est remplacé par le subj. imp..
I never would've made the connection between this and French doing the opposite & replacing the imperfect subjunctive with the present subjunctive!
Yeah, it's a neat parallel!
All4Ɇn wrote: 23 Aug 2021 20:59 Nouns with a stressed syllable containing either /fjo fjɔ/ or the arch-phoneme P's realizations of /bjo~fjo bjɔ~fjɔ/ turn them into /fi/ and /bi~fi/ when a stressed diminutive or augmentative ending is added. I like to call this the "Firenze rule" as it's the same sound change found in that word.
Oh, that's fun [:D]
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Khemehekis »

All4Ɇn wrote: 18 Aug 2021 02:00 Garcìe Gir! (gir is dormouse in Gallo-Tuscan)
Is this related to the word Glires (as in, rodents + lagomorphs), by any chance?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Khemehekis wrote: 24 Aug 2021 00:15
All4Ɇn wrote: 18 Aug 2021 02:00 Garcìe Gir! (gir is dormouse in Gallo-Tuscan)
Is this related to the word Glires (as in, rodents + lagomorphs), by any chance?
It's derived from it. Why scientists chose to use the Latin word for dormice for such a broad group, I have no idea.
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Khemehekis »

All4Ɇn wrote: 24 Aug 2021 01:28
Khemehekis wrote: 24 Aug 2021 00:15
All4Ɇn wrote: 18 Aug 2021 02:00 Garcìe Gir! (gir is dormouse in Gallo-Tuscan)
Is this related to the word Glires (as in, rodents + lagomorphs), by any chance?
It's derived from it. Why scientists chose to use the Latin word for dormice for such a broad group, I have no idea.
Yeah, I'd've expected something like Ratti, since people sometimes call chipmunks or beavers or hamsters "rats".
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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Imperative
The imperative has a number of irregularities, some of which I'm still working on. For all verbs the 2s imperative is the only one with a completely distinct form. The 3s and 1p forms are always identical to their present subjunctive forms while the 2p imperative is identical to the present subjunctive for -ar verbs and is identical to the present tense for all other verbs. This can be summarized here:
1s: n/a
2s: -a/-e (+metaphony)/-e (+metaphony)/-êsce/-pie
3s: -e/-a/-a/-pia
1p: -ins (-îns after t͡ʃ)/-ians (-ans after t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ɲ ʎ j)/-ians (-ans after t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ɲ ʎ j)/-pîans
2p: -it (-ît after t͡ʃ)/-et (palatalization of stem final /(s)k ŋ/ to /t͡s d͡ʒ/-et/-pît
3p: n/a

Sample Verbs: Smutar/Terger/Partir/Aprir/Empîr
Spoiler:
1s: n/a
2s: Smuta/Térge/Parte/Aprêsce/Empie
3s: Smute/Tergia/Parta/Apresçia/Empîa
1p: Smutins/Tergians/Parçans/Apresçans/Empians
2p: Smutit/Terget/Partet/Apret/Empît
3p: n/a
Notes:
-When negated, the 2s form always becomes the infinitive. This applies to irregular verbs too. If a pronoun is suffixed, the silent final -r is dropped in the orthography unlike with the infinitive.
-When a pronoun is suffixed, final -s in the 1p forms is dropped


Short Stem -Er Verbs
Those verbs which have a short stem in the infinitive form the 2s imperative by simply using that stem, e.g:
Assér: Assiè (slightly irregular, expected form would be assé)
Attrar: Attrà
Bér: Be
Conclur: Conclù
Condur: Condù
Crér: Cre
Ler:
Vér: Vé (accent written to avoid confusion with the pronoun ve)

Notes:
-When the pronoun te is attached to verbs of this conjugation, it becomes -tte. This comes from the now lost consonant fusing with the pronoun, thus preventing lenition. E.G: assiette! (sit down) & conclutte! (make your mind up)
-Prender and its derivatives have the irregular 2s imperative form prè which follow the same rule about -tte above


Irregular 2s Forms
These verbs have irregular 2s imperatives and don't undergo the -te to -tte rule
Agliar: Va
Avér: Ave (technically regular but worth noting given the verb's irregularities)
Dir: Di
Essér: Si
Far: Fa
Sapér: Sape (technically regular but worth noting given the verb's irregularities)
Tenir: Tien
Venir: Vien


Irregular 1p and 2p Forms
-Agliar's 1p imperative is always aglians and never vadians even though both forms are valid in the present subjunctive
-Agliar's 2p imperative is it. This is identical to the present instead of the present subjunctive as would be expected from an -ar verb
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by Backstroke_Italics »

Loving this thread. I like aposteriori conlangs, especially ones that are creative without losing sight of realism. I'm looking forward to more!
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Backstroke_Italics wrote: 31 Aug 2021 04:21 Loving this thread. I like aposteriori conlangs, especially ones that are creative without losing sight of realism. I'm looking forward to more!
Thank you! I really appreciate that. I'd say my conlanging style in general is a lot like how you explained this one, just with differing degrees of realism. [:)] If there's any topics you wanna see covered feel free to let me know.

Edit:
I just added two new nouns to the irregular nouns section on page 1: fil /fil/ (son) -> figlie /fiʎ/ (sons) & on /ɔ̃/ (man) -> òmene /ˈɔmen/ (men)
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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Just thought I'd do a little post about the digraph <cî> since it's one of the most odd parts of the orthography. In Gallo-Tuscan the digraph <ci> is used for indicating /t͡ʃ/ before a vowel. This even applies to /t͡ʃe t͡ʃɛ/ which are written <cie~cié~ciè>. Thus the expected form before <i> would be <cii> but this looks extremely strange and so is replaced with <cî> with <î> mirroring it's (albeit now outdated) use in Italian, that is to say the orthographic coalescence of two <i> pronounced as just /i/. There are 4 situations where we find this digraph:

1. The subjunctive and imperative of verbs ending in -ciar:
Che lo cercîn- That they encircle it
Sorcînili!- Let's surpass them!
Che li mecît- That you mix them

2. Diminutives formed with the suffix -in/-ina of nouns ending in -cie/-cia:
Orecia (ear) -> Orecîna (ear DIM)

3. Loanwords:
Cîcòria- Chicory
Cîli- Chile
Cîna- China
Cîpper- Cyprus

4. A small number of words derived from Vulgar Latin /kli/ which was an extremely uncommon combination (below are all of them):
Cîn /t͡ʃĩ/- Hill (from a conflation of collis, collīnus, collīnā, clīnō, & clīvus)
Cînar /t͡ʃiˈnɑ/- To lower/bow
Incînar /ĩt͡ʃiˈnɑ/- To incline or bow (for respect etc.)
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

Post by All4Ɇn »

Italian City Names
Gallo-Tuscan has a large number of unique names for various cities in Italian. Some of the changes may be slight such as Sièna simply taking an accent mark. Others may be more noticeable. Below are some of the most notable:
Milan /miˈlɑ̃/- Milan
Nappel /ˈnɑbel/- Naples
Torin /toˈɾĩ/- Turin
Palerm /bɑˈlɛɾ/- Palermo
Génua /ˈd͡ʒenwɑ/- Genoa
Firença /fiˈɾɛ̃t͡sɑ/- Florence
Venèza /veˈnɛd͡zɑ/- Venice
Patua /ˈbɑθwɑ/- Padua
Bressa /bɾɛsɑ/- Brescia
Pret /bɾɛt/- Prato
Perusa /beˈɾuzɑ/- Perugia
Leórn /leˈoɾ/- Livorno/Leghorn
Cagliere /ˈkɑʎeɾ/- Cagliari
Sagliern /sɑˈʎɛɾ/- Salerno
Berghem /ˈbɛɾŋẽ/- Bergamo
Vizença /viˈd͡zɛ̃t͡sɑ/- Vicenza
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Re: Gallo-Tuscan

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Possessive Pronouns
I've run into a bit of a problem with the topic of possessive pronouns, so I figured I'd go over them:

1s:
Masculine singular: mò/mon
Feminine singular: ma/m'
Plural of both genders: mièi

2s:
Masculine singular: tò/ton
Feminine singular: ta/t'
Plural of both genders: tòi

3s
Masculine singular: sò/son
Feminine singular: sa/s'
Plural of both genders: sòi

1p:
Masculine singular: noster
Feminine singular: nostra
Plural of both genders: nostere

2p:
Masculine singular: loster
Feminine singular: lostra
Plural of both genders: lostere

3p:
invariable: lor

The problem that I run into with these is that morphosyntactically I would expect these to behave like articles and adjectives, meaning that the single syllable forms would be pronounced as secondarily stressed clitics, meaning that <tò nóm> would not be pronounced /tɔ nõ/ like I indicated in the Lord's Prayer, but instead as /ˌtoˈnõ/. This additionally would mean the accent marks in the words are largely counterintuitive and would also cause tò to sound identical to to' meaning all: tò pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (your bread), to' pan /ˌtoˈfɑ̃/ (all the bread). I'm largely fine with these changes but want to know what other people think.
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