(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here [2010-2020]

[ɶʙ ɞʛ]

I'd say that /kr gr/ are likely to become /ʀ̥ ʀ/ if /pr br/ become /ʙ̥ ʙ/. However, you can then have /ʀ̥ ʀ/ > /χ ʁ/ > /x ɣ/ unconditionally without affecting /ʙ̥ ʙ/.

[yangfiretiger121]

Okay.

Currently, I have <CiuV> [PwV]/[PʷV], with [P] as a palatal consonant, in the setting's Galactic language. Is [PwV]/[PʷV] acceptable, or does in have to be [CɥV]/[CᶣV]? The final realization will depend o my allowance of [C-infix-G].

[Ahzoh]

Yes

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How might the numeral words influence each other phonetically/phonemically?:

https://www.frathwiki.com/Vrkhazhian#Numerals

[yangfiretiger121]

nudiowain [ŋu.ʑoˈwä.iŋ] doesn't use capital letters, instead marking proper nouns with the prefixed particle nu- [ŋu-]. While [​i u] usually yield [j w] before vowels, nu blocks the change, like other particles. Is this morphological or purely phonotactical?

[zyma]

nudiowain [ŋu.ʑoˈwä.iŋ] doesn't use capital letters, instead marking proper nouns with the prefixed particle nu- [ŋu-]. While [​i u] usually yield [j w] before vowels, nu blocks the change, like other particles. Is this morphological or purely phonotactical?

If all particles block the change, I'd say it has more to do with morphology.

[sangi39]

Yes

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How might the numeral words influence each other phonetically/phonemically?:

https://www.frathwiki.com/Vrkhazhian#Numerals

Are the stem forms for the cardinal forms the forms that numbers appear in when counting? That seems to be thing that most influenced numbers affecting each other in Indo-European languages (adjacent numbers seem to have had the most affect on each other, which some have suggested it happened as the result of counting more than anything else).

[Ahzoh]

Are the stem forms for the cardinal forms the forms that numbers appear in when counting? That seems to be thing that most influenced numbers affecting each other in Indo-European languages (adjacent numbers seem to have had the most affect on each other, which some have suggested it happened as the result of counting more than anything else).

Well they would be said with the gender vowel like -a, so tibsa, śiṭṭa, maǧla, ṣebāsa, etc.

[Sequor]

[...]

[...]

I'd say that /kr gr/ are likely to become /ʀ̥ ʀ/ if /pr br/ become /ʙ̥ ʙ/. However, you can then have /ʀ̥ ʀ/ > /χ ʁ/ > /x ɣ/ unconditionally without affecting /ʙ̥ ʙ/.

Regarding linguistic bilabial trills, here is an interesting post from someone on the ZBB:

I will say that I do not believe the reports of this-and-that South American language having /t̪ʙ̥/ as a phoneme. I'm not saying that as a joke, either: like "haha that is so outrageous, anadew amirite?". I am being serious: I literally do not believe it. Napoleon Chagnon in one of his books talks about an entire village making up fake and lewd-sounding names for each member of their tribe as a prank to pull on Chagnon, and sustaining that prank for months without anyone ever breaking character. Methinks the [t̪ʙ̥] business is another example of Amazonian tribal humor.

I don't know what merit there could be for this in Amazonian languages other than Pirahã where phonemic bilabial trills have been reported, but it'd plausibly explain why Daniel Everett reported hearing /ʙ/ in Pirahã only after several years had passed, about which he then said Pirahã people had hidden the sound from him out of embarrassment. Elsewhere, Everett mentions an anecdote where early on in his contact with the Pirahã, he overheard a meeting where some men where deciding what to do with him, a foreign implant, whether they'd shoo him away or kill him (he allegedly proceeded to hide their weapons away while they were talking). Surely he would've heard some /ʙ/ in there?

[sangi39]

Are the stem forms for the cardinal forms the forms that numbers appear in when counting? That seems to be thing that most influenced numbers affecting each other in Indo-European languages (adjacent numbers seem to have had the most affect on each other, which some have suggested it happened as the result of counting more than anything else).

Well they would be said with the gender vowel -a, so tibsa, śiṭṭa, maǧla, ṣebāsa, etc.

Hmmmm, well, since the ordinals and fractionals are formed regularly, regardless of whether there's a second vowel or not in the stem, I wonder how much rhythm and "rhyme" might play into how they affect each other (think sheep counting). I could see, for example, see maǧla becoming maǧāla (gaining the long medial vowel under influence from ṣebāsa) which would give you a rhythm of S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S from 1 to 4. kurēya could similarly become kurya under influence from tiǧta, and switching back to the S-S S-S part of the rhythm scheme, which if extended further could have ḳerda pick up a long medial to become ḳerāda, filling out a second S-L-S S-L-S section.

That gets a bit trickier with 9 through to 12... yasīna could become yasna if the pattern continued (and since it's followed by ʾañla that's not much of a stretch), but then the question becomes what to do with lamma after pisāwa. Oo, other than I guess a sort of "clipped" rhythm of S-L-S S-S.

So you'd get:

tibsa, śiṭṭa, maǧāla, ṣebāsa
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
kurya, tiǧta, menāpa, ḳerāda
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
yasna, ʾañla, pisāwa, lamma
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-S)

While I think something like the initial vowels in 3 and 4 irregularly becoming identical (so meǧāla, ṣebāsa or maǧāla, ṣabāsa) might be less likely as a sort of "next step", I'm not sure how implausible it is either, so ending up with something like:

tibsa, śiṭṭa, meǧāla, ṣebāsa
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
kurya, tuǧta, menāpa, ḳerāda
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
yasna, ʾañla, pesāwa, lamma
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-S)

which gives you this sort of assonance in the S-S vowels that also groups them into three different sets based on vowel (which you sort of get in sheep counting, but that's more heavily based on rhyme, such that 1 and 2 form one rhyming couple, 3 and 4 make a section rhymic couplet, 5 is distinct, 6 and 7 form a third rhymic couplet, 8 and 9 a fourth one, and then 10 is distinct).

Anyway, that's where I'm on that at the moment, but I think I've relied too heavily on sheep counting, lol. IIRC, that took the "numbers influencing each other" thing further than you might expect because they were used almost exclusively for counting (so they weren't used, for example, to modify nouns, unlike in Welsh where numbers haven't developed in nearly the same way because they were still being used in other environments). And then, of course, there's Arabic, where its ordinals and fractionals are formed regularly, but the cardinals don't seem to have affected each other all that much.

I suspect, that in terms of "small" influences, like the kind seen in, say, Russian or Latin, there might not be any at all in Vrkhazhian. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of similarities between adjacent forms (they all share a common ending anyway, so you won't see things like "novem" under influence of "decem") and the initials are all different enough from number to number (so nothing like "pinque" to "quinque" or "nevjat'" to devjat').

[yangfiretiger121]

Okay, Thanks.

I introduced phonemic high, mid, and low tones into Galactic Standard because I didn't like how fast words gained syllables with eleven phonemes. As stated above, [​i u] yielded [j w] preceding vowels before I did so unless a particle was involved. Is it plausible for just the mid-tone [ī ū] to yield [j w], or do all tones have to change that way?

[Ahzoh]

tibsa, śiṭṭa, meǧāla, ṣebāsa
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
kurya, tuǧta, menāpa, ḳerāda
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-L-S)
yasna, ʾañla, pesāwa, lamma
(S-S S-S S-L-S S-S)

I like this, but I wonder if stress accent dependent on syllable weight would affect things too? Because stress would be on the last heavy or superheavy syllable.

Anyway, that's where I'm on that at the moment, but I think I've relied too heavily on sheep counting, lol. IIRC, that took the "numbers influencing each other" thing further than you might expect because they were used almost exclusively for counting

Well, the Vrkhazhians are pastorialists, so maybe they do a lot of herd counting. Also given that Vrkhazhian is prone to analogizing ablaut/has a triconsonantal root system, maybe the numerals develop a "template".

[All4Ɇn]

Given the contact between the North Germanic and Celtic languages, does it seem probable to make a North Germanic language with initial consonant mutation? Or is this too unlikely given that it was mostly North Germanic languages that influenced the Celtic ones?

[Ælfwine]

Given the contact between the North Germanic and Celtic languages, does it seem probable to make a North Germanic language with initial consonant mutation? Or is this too unlikely given that it was mostly North Germanic languages that influenced the Celtic ones?

I have tried this.

I agree that Old Norse would be the one spreading its features than the other way around. For example, the Gaelic spoken in northern Scotland did converge with Norse through its phonology. I believe preaspiration was gained through Norse influence, and Scots Gaelic devoiced its consonants (c.f. Icelandic.) But you might know this already. On the other hand the influence Gaelic had on the Norse spoken there seems to have been limited to loanwords (cf Faroese tarvur < tarbh). I cant pinpoint anything in Faroese or Norn that is evidence of Gaelic influence. Lenition maybe? But even the lenition did not cross word boundaries.

Best bet is to turn Norse from a superstrate to a substrate. Then you might get initial mutations and the like.

[Porphyrogenitos]

Given the contact between the North Germanic and Celtic languages, does it seem probable to make a North Germanic language with initial consonant mutation? Or is this too unlikely given that it was mostly North Germanic languages that influenced the Celtic ones?

I have tried this.

I agree that Old Norse would be the one spreading its features than the other way around. For example, the Gaelic spoken in northern Scotland did converge with Norse through its phonology. I believe preaspiration was gained through Norse influence, and Scots Gaelic devoiced its consonants (c.f. Icelandic.) But you might know this already. On the other hand the influence Gaelic had on the Norse spoken there seems to have been limited to loanwords (cf Faroese tarvur < tarbh). I cant pinpoint anything in Faroese or Norn that is evidence of Gaelic influence. Lenition maybe? But even the lenition did not cross word boundaries.

Best bet is to turn Norse from a superstrate to a substrate. Then you might get initial mutations and the like.

While external influence would be one factor affecting the likelihood of developing initial mutations, I don't think initial mutations need to be externally motivated. There are a number of Romance varieties with initial consonant mutations (including Standard Italian, with its raddoppiamento sintattico) and all of them are clearly the product of internal developments, not external influence. And there's nothing early Romance had that Old Norse didn't have, in terms of potential sources of mutation. In fact, Old Norse had a richer case system than early-ish Romance, which could make development of initial mutations even more likely.

Worldwide, initial mutations are sporadic, but not confined to one area, and not rare enough to be truly unusual. In fact, when you consider that they're just another possibility for stem alternations, which are not unusual at all, especially in IE, it's really no surprise to see them develop.

[Ælfwine]

Given the contact between the North Germanic and Celtic languages, does it seem probable to make a North Germanic language with initial consonant mutation? Or is this too unlikely given that it was mostly North Germanic languages that influenced the Celtic ones?

I have tried this.

I agree that Old Norse would be the one spreading its features than the other way around. For example, the Gaelic spoken in northern Scotland did converge with Norse through its phonology. I believe preaspiration was gained through Norse influence, and Scots Gaelic devoiced its consonants (c.f. Icelandic.) But you might know this already. On the other hand the influence Gaelic had on the Norse spoken there seems to have been limited to loanwords (cf Faroese tarvur < tarbh). I cant pinpoint anything in Faroese or Norn that is evidence of Gaelic influence. Lenition maybe? But even the lenition did not cross word boundaries.

Best bet is to turn Norse from a superstrate to a substrate. Then you might get initial mutations and the like.

While external influence would be one factor affecting the likelihood of developing initial mutations, I don't think initial mutations need to be externally motivated. There are a number of Romance varieties with initial consonant mutations (including Standard Italian, with its raddoppiamento sintattico) and all of them are clearly the product of internal developments, not external influence. And there's nothing early Romance had that Old Norse didn't have, in terms of potential sources of mutation. In fact, Old Norse had a richer case system than early-ish Romance, which could make development of initial mutations even more likely.

Worldwide, initial mutations are sporadic, but not confined to one area, and not rare enough to be truly unusual. In fact, when you consider that they're just another possibility for stem alternations, which are not unusual at all, especially in IE, it's really no surprise to see them develop.

It's worth pointing out that Germanic has a strong initial stress accent, however. In Celtic and Romance words without a strong initial stress, I can see mutation happen quite easily, but this might be a limiting factor for Germanic languages.

Then again stress might not play any roll in the development of mutations, this is just speculation from my part. All you need is lenition.

[Zekoslav]

Yea, Irish has had a Germanic-like initial stress (complete with reduction and loss of unstressed vowels) before, during and after the period it developed initial mutations.

All you need for initial mutations is for word-medial sound changes to apply to phrases instead of individual words. This probably means entire phrases behaving like one phonological word, as in French. In fact, French liaison, which synchronically prefixes a consonant (usually /z/ or /t/) to vowel-inital words in some grammatical contexts, is very similar to a type of Irish initial mutation.

[ixals]

Is /θ/ > /ts/ possible?

[yangfiretiger121]

Standard Jêêuwan has initial mutation after [ʔ] descending from coda [ħ, l, ɾ]. Vowel-initial words take the glottal stop prothetically. Is it more natural for all three former codas to have the same effect or for [ħ] to have one effect on consonant-initial words while [l, ɾ] have another, and what are potential outcomes in either situation? Additionally, former coda [l, ɾ] lengthen all precedent vowels in a compensatory process.

[Birdlang]

Is /θ/ > /ts/ possible?

It is. Maybe /θ/ > /tʰ/ > /ts/ with the aspirated stop being an intermediate step. Hebrew has /θ/ > /s/ which is similar.

[VaptuantaDoi]

Is /θ/ > /ts/ possible?

Some idiolects of English have /θ/ → [tθ], which is only a step away from /ts/.

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Does anyone know of any examples of Vulgar Latin /u/ in closed syllables other than frūctus?