Solenja

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Park Bom
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Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

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Last edited by Park Bom on 13 Feb 2022 19:05, edited 57 times in total.
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

First question: Is this a divergent Romance language, or is it a creole (like Lingua Franca Nova)?
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Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

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Last edited by Park Bom on 13 Feb 2022 19:06, edited 1 time in total.
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

Park Bom wrote: 05 May 2021 21:06 I would say yes, i think.
That wasn't a yes-or-no question.

Is it:

(a) A divergent Romance language

or

(b) A creole
?
i didn't know Lingua Franca Nova.
Lingua Franca Nova, or LFN, by the late C. George Boeree, is an auxlang based on Romance lexicon with a creole's grammar.
Solenja is based on: Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Basque, Romanian, maybe Esperanto and one more.
Esperanto? Is this an auxlang? Or is it an artlang? You said it was spoken on an island.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

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Last edited by Park Bom on 13 Feb 2022 19:06, edited 1 time in total.
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

Park Bom wrote: 05 May 2021 21:20 Solenja is a creole.
Ah, I see. That was what I suspected. Romance without genders nor articles!
Esperanto is a auxlang, if you mean this.
Well, no one's debating that Esperanto's an auxlang, but basing your Solenja partially on Esperanto made me wonder if Solenja was an auxlang too.
Solenja was started as a „artlang“ but it would be me happy, if it comes to a auxlang.

Yes, my language is spoken on my fictional island.
So it's a fictional language (artlang) and a creole. Got it.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

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Last edited by Park Bom on 13 Feb 2022 19:06, edited 2 times in total.
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

Park Bom wrote: 05 May 2021 18:48 H = House, but in the Word its silent.
You mean it's silent in the middle of the word, but pronounced /h/ like in "house" at the beginning of a word?
father/feather (the E at the end of many german words)
This is the vowel /ɐ/, as in "bitte".
O = of
So you're saying this is /ʌ/ (the sound of the U in "cut")?

Also: How did Esperanto become a contributing language? Was there a sizeable Esperanto-speaking community on the island, along with the speakers of the Romance natlang from which Solenja evolved and the speakers of the "exotic" language that influenced its simple grammar?
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My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

Park Bom wrote: 05 May 2021 21:32 Solenja has articles, namely La what means The and una what a/an/one is.
Ah, I see, reading it again: no genders, no verb conjugation, and no tenses (tenses are what "times" like past, present, or future are called in English). Somehow I misremembered that as no articles.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

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Last edited by Park Bom on 13 Feb 2022 19:06, edited 1 time in total.
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

Park Bom wrote: 05 May 2021 21:43
You mean it's silent in the middle of the word, but pronounced /h/ like in "house" at the beginning of a word?
Yes :)
OK.
So you're saying this is /ʌ/ (the sound of the U in "cut")?
How you say of? O like in So, or, Ort, Mond etc.
"Of" has a sound that doesn't exist in German. It's the vowel /ʌ/, as on "love", "come", "something", "cut", "cup", "jump", "hug", "brother", "buddy", etc., at least when people want to say the word strongly, like when they're singing a song that rhymes "love" with "dreaming of".

But sometimes we just use the schwa: /əv/. That's in quick, everyday speech, in sentences wherein "of" is an unimportant word.

The O in "or" is /ɔ/, like the vowel in German "Ort". We have the vowel in "horse", "fork", "New York", "dork", "course", "port", "form", "normal", "morning", "mourn", "door", "floor", "pour", and words like that.

The O in German "so" is /o/. Most English dialects don't have /o/ as a standalone vowel, but American English speakers have the diphthong /ou/ for words like "so", "stone", "cold", "joke", "trophy", "sofa", "hope", "gold", "old", "goal", "soul", "low", "go", "toe", "doughnut", and "brooch". This is called "long O" in English.

The letter O can also make the vowel sound /ɑ/, called "short O", like the A in German "Art". This appears in "Tom", "mom", "on", "rob", "Bob", "John", "soft", "clock", "Josh", "God", "pot", "top", "stop", "box", and "off". There's also "dog", although some dialects pronounce the O in "dog" as an /ɔ/. In British English, these words have the vowel /ɒ/.
The Esperanto thing. Not every word is shitty|_|
I used 5 languages and seldom Esperanto.
OK.

Is it descended from proto-Iberian, or languages like French, or languages like Italian? What is its ancestor?

Or did all four of those Romance languages, plus Basque, bring speakers to the island, causing the developers of the creole to borrow different words from different modern Romance languages?
Last edited by Khemehekis on 05 May 2021 22:05, edited 1 time in total.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

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Last edited by Park Bom on 13 Feb 2022 19:06, edited 1 time in total.
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

Here's an idea!

Go to this chart where you can hear the sounds spoken:

https://www.ipachart.com/

and tell me which IPA symbol the O in Solenja sounds like!
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

The Close-mid O.
I think, we have in german only the short and long O...
[:P]
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

We don't have that in English.

Instead of using an English example, just use the IPA symbol and say "This is the sound /o/, as in the German word 'froh'."
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

Thank you, i have edit it. :)
Khemehekis
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Re: Solenja

Post by Khemehekis »

Park Bom wrote: 05 May 2021 22:28 Thank you, i have edit it. :)
You're welcome.

Vowels can be confusing, so they should all use IPA symbols.
A = farm
E = test, father/feather (the E at the end of many german words)
I,Y = in
O = /o/, as in the German word „froh“ or „Mond“
U = full
The A in "farm" is /ɑ/, like the A in German "Art".

The I in "in" is /ɪ/, like the I in German "sind".

The U in "full" is /ʊ/, like the U in the German word "Butter". (We have "butter" in English too, but we pronounce the U as an /ʌ/.)

E is tricky. The E in "test" is /ɛ/. This is the sound in German "besser". The E at the end of German words like "bitte" is /ɐ/. The -er at the end of English "father" and "feather" is an /ɚ/, though.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

i have edit All vowels.
Questions you never asked yourself ^^

[<3]

Edit: now realy, wrong end e symbol^^
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Re: Solenja

Post by Salmoneus »

I'd just like to point out: take some of what Khemehekis says with a big pinch of salt, because he's talking about his own, American dialect.


In particular: Americans usually have the same sound in "of" and "cut", but the rest of the world doesn't. For the rest of us (well, a lot of us, I don't know about, eg, Canadians?), "of" has the same vowel as "dog", "cloth", etc - what Khem calls "short O".

Likewise, the description Khem gives of the final sound of 'father' is accurate for Americans, but in southern England, Africa and the Antipodes, this sound has lost its rhotic quality entirely and merged with the final vowel in 'comma'.





If you want more discussion:
Spoiler:
[I'm a bit confused by Khem's "O"s. First, "short O" is a bit of a misleading name in American, because this category also includes words with "A" - palm, father, car, etc (this vowel set has a different vowel from the 'short O' set outside the US). A couple of his words actually aren't in the "short O" set at all for most Americans - "soft" and "off", as well as "dog", instead have the vowel of "caught" and "law" (as they do in old-fashioned, but not modern, British). This vowel is /ɔ/, and is indeed also the vowel that non-Americans tend to have in "fork", "horse", "port", etc. However, in American dialects, the sound in "horse", "fork", etc is often raised to /o/ instead, particularly in dialects that otherwise merge /ɔ/ with the "short O" vowel. Oh, and in traditional non-American dialects, "mourn" has another vowel from these entirely, but admittedly that's gradually dying out.]

Oh, and in a lot of American, the "long O" sound actually is a monopthongal /o/. Conversely, apparently in parts of northern Germany and Austria, German /o/ can actually be a diphthong, as in most English.

Anyway, traditionally German has two "O" sounds, distinguished by both length and quality: long /o:/ and short /ɔ/. It can also get more complicated before R.
English, however, traditionally has at least THREE "O" sounds: long /o:/ (which is actually more like /ou/ in most dialects) AND /ɔ:/, and short /ɒ/ (which most Americans merge with an "A" sound) - but which words have which sound varies between dialects. I can't speak for Americans, but English people hearing German, because our /ɔ:/ is long, often hear German short /ɔ/ as our short /ɒ/.

So, for me, "fork", "sofa" and "dog" (and "mourn") all have different vowels in them!

[it used to be worse: hoarse and horse used to have different vowels too. Fortunately that's almost extinct now.]
Park Bom
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Re: Solenja

Post by Park Bom »

Thank you Salmoneus for your input / explanation. [:3]
English is just complicated...
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