Урданорос/Urdanoros:: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

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Урданорос/Urdanoros:: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by Shemtov »

Урданорос/Urdanoros: is a Satem IE language, belonging to its own branch, Üryäneric, that has been heavily influenced by Turkic. It is spoken in the Russian Republic of Urdanoristan, which is the IRL Orenburg Oblast, north and west of the Ural River, by around 800,000 speakers.

This post will focus on changes from PIE to Modern Üryäneres, and the phonology of the modern language.

To Pre-Proto-Üryäneric:
Labialvelars fuse with plain velars
Postvelars become postalveolar
Plain Voiced stops merge with Unvoiced
Breathy Voiced stops become voiced
RUKI rule- given the later evolution of the descendents of this rule, it is believed that the RUKI-affected */s/ became */ç/
H1e eH1>ē
H1o oH1>ē
H2e eH2>a
H2o oH2>a
H3e eH3>ō
H3o oH3>ō
m̩>n̩
l̩>r̩

To Proto-Üryäneric:
n̩>an
r̩>ri
ŏy>/ø/
ōy>y
ĕ̄w>ɯ
s>θ
t͡ʃ ʃ>t͡s s
d͡ʒ> d͜z
ki ke ky kø>t͡ʃi t͡ʃe t͡ʃy t͡ʃø
gi ge gy d͡ʒø> d͡ʒi d͡ʒe d͡ʒy d͡ʒø
RUKI "breaking"- if triggered by u or k>q (kq>q) by r or i>ʃ

To Old Üryäneräs:
/y ø/ in a word fronts all back vowels
/ɯ / in a word without /y ø/ backs all front vowels, e>ɤ>o
/q/ before a front vowel in a word without /y ø/ backs all front vowels in word, e>ɤ>o
Postalveolars and /j/ before a back vowel in a word without /ɯ q/ fronts all back vowels in word
w>ʋ
b>β
d>ð
g>ɣ
d͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜z>z

d͡ʒ>ʒ

To Modern Üryäneräs:
ĕ>æ
ŏ>ɑ
ð in front vowel words>j
β>ʋ
Rounding harmony for high vowels devolops.
Voiced stops reenter via new loans.
/f/ enters via new loans
Syllable-final ʋ> w, ʒ>j

Phonology (for "native" that is, non-Russian, words):
/p b t d t͡s t͡ʃ k g q/ <п б т д ц ч к г ҡ>
/m n/ <м н>
/f θ ð s z ʃ ʒ ɣ/ <ф ҫ ҙ с з ш ж ғ>
/r/ <р>
/l/ <л>
/ʋ j/ <в й>


/i y u ɯ/ <и ү у ы>
/e ø o/ <э ө о>
/æ ɑ/ <ә а>



EDIT:Redone diachronics/phonology
Last edited by Shemtov on 21 Jun 2021 21:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Үрйәнэрэс/Üryäneres: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by Shemtov »

While Üryäneräs has lost gender, it preserves three declensions: äth nouns, a nouns, and plain nouns.

Regular äth noun: Врикәҫ "wolf"
Singular:
Nominative: Врикәҫ
Accusative: Врикәҫ
Dative-Locative: Врикәҫе
Genetive-Ablative: Врикәҫөҫ
Plural:
Nominative: Врикөҫ
Accusative: Врикөҫ
Dative-Locative: Врикөмәҫ
Genetive-Ablative: Врикөҫөм

Regular a noun Чэна "woman"
Singular:
Nominative: Чэна
Accusative: Чэнам
Dative-Locative: Чэнәй
Genetive-Ablative: Чэнәҫ
Plural:
Nominative: Чэнәй
Accusative: Чэнәй
Dative-Locative: Чэнәмәҫ
Genetive-Ablative: Чэнөмәҫ

Regular plain noun Пот "foot"

Singular:
Nominative: Пот
Accusative: Потан
Dative-Locative: Пото
Genetive-Ablative: Потаҫ
Plural:
Nominative: Потаҫ
Accusative: Потант
Dative-Locative: Потмаҫ
Genetive-Ablative: Потом
Last edited by Shemtov on 21 Jun 2021 21:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Үрйәнэрэс/Üryäneres: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by WeepingElf »

Shemtov wrote: 15 Jun 2021 20:56 Үрйәнэрәс/Üryäneräs is a Satem IE language, belonging to its own branch, Üryäneric, that has been heavily influenced by Turkic. It is spoken in the Russian Republic of Üryäneristan, which is the IRL Orenburg Oblast, north and west of the Ural River, by around 800,000 speakers.

This post will focus on changes from PIE to Modern Üryäneres, and the phonology of the modern language.
The sound changes you give below have several issues. First of all, your language fits poorly into the general picture of the IE languages, because neighbouring branches tend to show similar features as they all evolved from a dialect continuum (Anatolian and Tocharian are exceptions, probably because Anatolian split off early, and Tocharian lost contact to the IE dialect continuum later, but still fairly early).
To Pre-Proto-Üryäneric:
Labialvelars fuse with plain velars
Postvelars become postalveolar
Plain Voiced stops merge with Unvoiced
Breathy Voiced stops become voiced
Phonetically possible, but unusual, and not to be expected from an IE language which one would expect by its location to follow similar developments as Iranian and Slavic.
RUKI rule- given the later evolution of the descendents of this rule, it is believed that the RUKI-affected */s/ became */ç/
What happens to */ç/ in your language? You list no sound change affecting it, and it doesn't occur in the final inventory. Also, /ç/ is IMHO an unlikely result of RUKI. RUKI is not a palatalization, rather a general backing change, perhaps originally yielding a retroflex /ʂ/ as preserved in Indo-Aryan, which secondarily became /ʃ/ in Iranian and Baltic, and /x/ in Slavic. Of course, nobody would expect things like /k/, /r/ or /u/ to palatalize anything!
H1e eH1>ē
H1o oH1>ē
H2e eH2>a
H2o oH2>a
H3e eH3>ō
H3o oH3>ō
This is bizarre. In all non-Anatolian IE languages, laryngeals lengthen the vowel if and only if they follow the vowel. You have *h1 and *h3 lengthen even following vowels, and *h2 not lengthen vowels at all. Why? Also, it is misleading to think of *h1 as "e-colouring" - it is better thought of as non-colouring. And *o is not coloured by any laryngeal. Think about it: *h1 does nothing to vowel qualities, *h2 backs the vowel, and *h3 backs and rounds it. Now *o is already back and round, so the laryngeals do nothing to it.
m̩>n̩
l̩>r̩

To Proto-Üryäneric:
n̩>an
r̩>ri
ŏy>/ø/
ōy>y
ĕ̄w>ɯ
s>θ
t͡ʃ ʃ>t͡s s
d͡ʒ> d͜z
ki ke ky kø>t͡ʃi t͡ʃe t͡ʃy t͡ʃø
gi ge gy d͡ʒø> d͡ʒi d͡ʒe d͡ʒy d͡ʒø
RUKI "breaking"- if triggered by u or k>q (kq>q) by r or i>ʃ
What do the last line's changes apply to? Perhaps the */ç/ I commented above about that I don't see where it goes? And ç > q is quite a stretch, isn't it?
To Old Üryäneräs:
/y ø/ in a word fronts all back vowels
/ɯ / in a word without /y ø/ backs all front vowels, e>ɤ>o
/q/ before a front vowel in a word without /y ø/ backs all front vowels in word, e>ɤ>o
Postalveolars and /j/ before a back vowel in a word without /ɯ q/ fronts all back vowels in word
If these changes attempt to emulate Turkic vowel harmony, try again. Especially front rounded vowels, but not front unrounded ones, fronting all back vowels in a word seems weird to me.
w>ʋ
b>β
d>ð
g>ɣ
d͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜z>z

d͡ʒ>ʒ

To Modern Üryäneräs:
ĕ>æ
ŏ>ɑ
ð in front vowel words>j
β>ʋ
Rounding harmony for high vowels devolops.
Voiced stops reenter via new loans.
/f/ enters via new loans
Syllable-final ʋ> w, ʒ>j

Phonology (for "native" that is, non-Russian, words):
/p b t d t͡s t͡ʃ k g q/ <п б т д ц ч к г ҡ>
/m n/ <м н>
/f θ ð s z ʃ ʒ ɣ/ <ф ҫ ҙ с з ш ж ғ>
/r/ <р>
/l/ <л>
/ʋ j/ <в й>


/i y u ɯ/ <и ү у ы>
/e ø o/ <э ө о>
/æ ɑ/ <ә а>
The final inventory is fine, but as I laid out above, some of your sound changes are questionable.
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Re: Үрйәнэрэс/Üryäneres: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by Shemtov »

First point:
The original draft of the language was a Satem Tocharian, and all the stop series were to fuse. However, I wanted a voiced series to continue. Therefore, I made the following assumption: I would speculate that in Pre-Proto-Tocharian the plain voiced series fused first, and it also underwent the same shift to the stop series that Üryäneres did, and then the aspirates fused. This is only speculation, not an opinion about the actual history of Tocharian, based on the idea that the unvoiced and plain voiced series share the feature -aspiration. Now, I was going to note that Üryäneres had contact with Pre-Proto-Tocharian, and there were clearly IE words that don't fit the sound changes unless they were borrowed from a Tocharian-like branch.

Second:
The actual reflex of RUKI doesn't matter, as long as in some cases it shifted to the same as the Baltic and Iranian reflexes, and in others to the same as the Slavic reflex. That latter one was /X/ and since one of the cases where it reflects the Slavic route is /kX/ I stated that /kX/>q. If it seems more reasonable, I could say that only after /u/ does RUKI stay something like /x/. I could implement that change to my diachronics. Add in /x/ and say that RUKI /ʂ/ originally split into /ʃ/ and /X/, and the latter in the sequence /kX/>q. I could keep the synchronic system and say that if it didn't become /q/, /X/>h>∅, but now I think it's better to add /x/ or /X/ synchronically.
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Re: Үрйәнэрэс/Üryäneres: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by Nortaneous »

Shemtov wrote: 18 Jun 2021 20:28 First point:
The original draft of the language was a Satem Tocharian, and all the stop series were to fuse. However, I wanted a voiced series to continue. Therefore, I made the following assumption: I would speculate that in Pre-Proto-Tocharian the plain voiced series fused first, and it also underwent the same shift to the stop series that Üryäneres did, and then the aspirates fused.
Probably not - Tocharian has a total and unconditional merger of the voiced aspirates into the unvoiced stops, but shows different sets of reflexes for *t and *d. The only evidence that Tocharian ever distinguished unvoiced stops and voiced aspirates is that there are two or three words that might show Grassmann's Law.
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Re: Үрйәнэрэс/Üryäneres: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by Shemtov »

I have considered everything, and I think that this language, in its current form, was DOA. I did it very hastily, trying to connect it to branches of IE that I don't know enough about to affect the diachronics of a conlang.

I do think that there is a good conlang in here struggling to get out. I like the idea of a Turkic-influenced IE language, and the idea that RUKI */ʂ/ underwent a conditioned split between its reflex in Iranic and its reflex in Slavic is an interesting one. However, this language is not it.

Therefore, I declare it dead.
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Re: Үрйәнэрэс/Üryäneres: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by eldin raigmore »

Shemtov wrote: 20 Jun 2021 19:00 I have considered everything, …
This is usually an overstatement, but OK.
I look forward to your next attempt!
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Re: Үрйәнэрэс/Üryäneres: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by Vlürch »

Shemtov wrote: 20 Jun 2021 19:00I do think that there is a good conlang in here struggling to get out. I like the idea of a Turkic-influenced IE language, and the idea that RUKI */ʂ/ underwent a conditioned split between its reflex in Iranic and its reflex in Slavic is an interesting one. However, this language is not it.
Well, there could be many different possible ways to make an Indo-European language more Turkic-esque and fitting in that region even without wonky sound changes. Something you could do is make it kind of "semi-creolised", similar to how Finnish is with several layers of heavy Indo-European influence with a long history of intermarriage and whatnot, to justify making it more Turkic-esque than would be expected of an Indo-European language even in that region.

Another thing that could justify weirdness would be to make it more or less halfway between Slavic and Indo-Iranian as a kind of transitional variety in a continuum between them, so having a more "Slavic-leaning" dialect and a more "Indo-Iranian-leaning" dialect and them merging into a koine during the process of Turkification (and possibly some degree of Uralicisation as well). Some irregularities could then be analogised out with "unexpected" results.

Combine those two options, and... well, I imagine you could get away with basically "it's an Indo-European language but sounds and looks exactly like a Turkic language and even works exactly like a Turkic language, but it is Indo-European (source: trust me bro)".

Unrelated, but since it's pretty much the same sound change you want in this IIUC and in a somewhat similar conlang... last year I started working on a Turkic conlang set in the Karakoram where one of the sound changes was that /*ĺ/ became /ʃ/ in front vowel words and /x/ in back vowel words (and then /e/ and /ɑ/ merged so they became phonemic). It just seems like a perfectly plausible consonant split, regardless of what the exact conditions that lead to it are. That conlang didn't really go anywhere thanks to my idiotic choices regarding sound changes with vowels, though.
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Re: Үрйәнэрэс/Üryäneres: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by WeepingElf »

You may want to take a look at Zamanic, a language I made (but never completed) together with a collaborator a few years ago. Zamanic was meant to be spoken in a location about 1,000 km north of Orenburg, and is a rather conservative IE language intermediate between Slavic and Iranian, but with vowel harmony (inspired more by Uralic than Turkic, so not the same, but close). That Zamanic is unfinished and currently dormant has no language-internal reasons; we simply turned our attention to other projects.
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Урданорос/Urdanoros:: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by Shemtov »

Ressurected with the following diachronics, inspired by Zamanic (I hope WeepingElf doesn't mind), renamed Урданорос/Urdanoros:
To Pre-Proto-Urdanoric:
Labialvelars fuse with plain velars
Postvelars become postalveolar
Breathy Voiced merge with plain voiced
RUKI rule- s>ʂ /(i,u,r,k)_
H1e eH1>ē
Syllabic H1>e
Syllabic H2>a
Syllabic H3>a
VH > V:
AH1 and H1A>e
m̩>n̩
l̩>r̩

To Proto-Urdanoric:
n̩>an
r̩>ri
ŏy>/ø/
ōy>y
ĕ̄w>ɯ
s>θ
t͡ʃ ʃ>t͡s s
d͡ʒ> d͜z
ki ke ky kø kj>t͡ʃi t͡ʃe t͡ʃy t͡ʃø t͡ʃ
gi ge gy gø gj> d͡ʒi d͡ʒe d͡ʒy d͡ʒø d͡ʒ
RUKI "breaking"- ʂ>ʃ _(r,i) ʂ >X _(k,u)
sp>f
zd>z
st>s
st͡ʃ>ʃ
sk>X

To Old Urdanoros:
V > [+front] /first vowel is [+front]
V > [-front] /first vowel is [-front]
w>ʋ
b>β
d>ð
g>ɣ
Nasal+stop clusters>voiced stops
d͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜z>z
d͡ʒ>ʒ
/kX>q

To Modern Urdanoros:
ĕ>æ
ŏ>ɑ
ɤ>ɑ
i:>i
u:>u
ð in front vowel words>j
β>ʋ
Rounding harmony for high vowels devolops.
X>x
Syllable-final ʋ> w, ʒ>j

Phonology (for "native" that is, non-Russian, words):
/p b t d t͡s t͡ʃ k g q/ <п б т д ц ч к г ҡ>
/m n/ <м н>
/f θ ð s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ/ <ф ҫ ҙ с з ш ж х ғ>
/r/ <р>
/l/ <л>
/ʋ~w j/ <в й>


/i y u ɯ/ <и ү у ы>
/e ø o/ <э ө о>
/æ ɑ/ <ә а>
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Re: Урданорос/Urdanoros:: A Turkic-Influenced IE lang

Post by Flavia »

H1e eH1>ē
But laryngeals never lengthen the following vowel, only the preceding one in IE languages...
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