My Introduction and Conlang

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Post Reply
Johnathan_4
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Jul 2021 22:14

My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Johnathan_4 »

Hello,

My name is Johnathan Palmer and I used to be a little involved here years back. I have since finished my B.A. degree in Applied Linguistics with a minor in Psychology. I graduated from Ashford University which is now the University of Arizona global campus. I just filled out the form to become a member of the LCS and will be sending in my payment at the beginning of next month. I don't know if anyone remembers me but that's okay. I have been working on a couple of conlangs for about five years now. I have finished one and would like to explain it from a linguistic point of view. It is a poly-synthetic language that I have named Taljruk with an accent on the a. If anyone is interested let me know and Ill share how it works.

Example: King = Afer (a as in after) - Noun
Wiley = Kiznihk (Wiley, first i sounds like y in symbol) - adj

The Wiley king = Kizafernihk
Do you see what I did there? I inserted the noun afer in the middle of the adj kiznihk
NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, GET UP, DRESS UP. SHOW UP, AND NEVER GIVE UP. [:D]
Khemehekis
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3884
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Khemehekis »

I'm guessing you're typing at a device that doesn't let you type non-ASCII characters?

Why do you use unrelated forms of proper names like Wilex? Or did you mean the "wily" king?

A question: You say "Afer" has the A in "after". Is your "after" with an A like in "cat" /æ/, as it is for most Americans? Or an A like in "party" /ɑ/, as it is in much of the U.K.? Or is it /a/, halfway in between, the Philadephian "bath" vowel, like the way I pronounce it (think of the song "Alouette" and how the A in the title word is pronounced)?
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Johnathan_4
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Jul 2021 22:14

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Johnathan_4 »

Thank you for your reply. Sorry that was a typo - I meant to say wily. I meant the wily king. I can use the International phonetic alphabet for the correct pronunciations of the words in Tɐ ́lʒrəK language.

Afer as in æfr. Regular r sound at the end. It is æ as in cat as in the American pronunciation. Not A as in party. No A sound that is halfway in between either.

Here is another example;

ɪfɪk means black (as in the color black). King is æfr. If I wanted to say black king or the black king. I would say ɪfæfrɪk. I placed the noun within the description which is the color black.
NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, GET UP, DRESS UP. SHOW UP, AND NEVER GIVE UP. [:D]
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5091
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Creyeditor »

I think infixing a noun into an adjective is rather unique. It looks like a combination of infixation and incorporation.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Johnathan_4
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Jul 2021 22:14

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Johnathan_4 »

Thanks. The language is fully documented and has a working grammar like verb conjugation as well. It also has its own script and cursive as well. I am about to type it up and make a book of it as well as a dictionary. Maybe one day I can present it at a language conference. When you say incorporation - I would agree, since if people were to speak it to each other fluently it would be natural.

I have a couple of questions; Does the LCS publish peoples work with a copyright or do I have to get a copyright myself?
AND
have you Creyeditor and Khemehekis ever published your languages with a copyright to protect your creative works?
NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, GET UP, DRESS UP. SHOW UP, AND NEVER GIVE UP. [:D]
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3021
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by elemtilas »

Johnathan_4 wrote: 26 Jul 2021 00:52 Thanks. The language is fully documented and has a working grammar like verb conjugation as well. It also has its own script and cursive as well. I am about to type it up and make a book of it as well as a dictionary. Maybe one day I can present it at a language conference. When you say incorporation - I would agree, since if people were to speak it to each other fluently it would be natural.

I have a couple of questions; Does the LCS publish peoples work with a copyright or do I have to get a copyright myself?
AND
have you Creyeditor and Khemehekis ever published your languages with a copyright to protect your creative works?
Just for future reference: CBB is not affiliated with the LCS in any way other than that both promote the art and craft of glossopoetry.

But to get to your questions: I do not believe that the LCS actually publishes invented language grammars in book form, though it's entirely possible you could seek a grant to do such a project. Hopefully you're aware by now that the LCS does provide a very generous web space for any member that wants it, and you can certainly publish your language online.

Copyright: Sai is the expert on the legalities of invented languages and copyright laws. Primarily in the US, but is probably aware of such laws in the EU and other places around the world. The short answer seems to be: you can not copyright a language, as it is a system of communication and thus a matter of public domain. You can, however, and should assert copyright over your presentation of your language: the format and layout of your book or website, the verbiage used in your descriptive sections, stories or texts that you have written either in your language or translated into it.

All you need to do in the US is place a copyright (c) statement in your book or on the main page of your online version. There are other possibilities for you as well, such as Creative Commons. As for publishing, I have not published any of my invented languages in book form, but if I did, I would most likely use CC simply to assert my moral rights as creator of the languages. Basically "if on the astronomically miniscule chance you happen to write a story in one of my languages, just acknowledge the fact I made the language." Other books I've written, being either narratives or encyclopedic in nature, I have copyrighted.

Lastly, I'd strongly encourage you to present it at a future LCC!
Johnathan_4
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Jul 2021 22:14

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Johnathan_4 »

Thank you for all of that information. It was very helpful!

I two more questions; how can I be involved in this online forum with you guys? I used to help this group working on a language called "honey..." - I forgot the last part of it but it was about five years ago and I do not know if they were on this forum or a different one. Does anyone by chance know these people? I would like to get back in touch with them if I can. If not that is okay I would like to be of any assistance to anyone needing help with their conlang or however I can get involved. [:D]
NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, GET UP, DRESS UP. SHOW UP, AND NEVER GIVE UP. [:D]
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2945
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Dormouse559 »

Johnathan_4 wrote: 26 Jul 2021 05:43I two more questions; how can I be involved in this online forum with you guys? I used to help this group working on a language called "honey..." - I forgot the last part of it but it was about five years ago and I do not know if they were on this forum or a different one. Does anyone by chance know these people? I would like to get back in touch with them if I can. If not that is okay I would like to be of any assistance to anyone needing help with their conlang or however I can get involved. [:D]
Welcome, Johnathan! Are you talking about Sajem Tan ("Common Honey")? Shanoxilt was the main person who posted about that on the forum; they apparently haven't logged in in a while, but it looks like they've linked a Sajem Tan Discord server near the bottom of their profile page.

Good ways to participate here include sharing information about your conlang, or replying to others' conlang threads to point out features you're curious about or find interesting. You can also practice using your conlang in areas like the Translations subforum. A lot of possibilities.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3021
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by elemtilas »

Johnathan_4 wrote: 26 Jul 2021 05:43 Thank you for all of that information. It was very helpful!

I two more questions; how can I be involved in this online forum with you guys? I used to help this group working on a language called "honey..." - I forgot the last part of it but it was about five years ago and I do not know if they were on this forum or a different one. Does anyone by chance know these people? I would like to get back in touch with them if I can. If not that is okay I would like to be of any assistance to anyone needing help with their conlang or however I can get involved. [:D]
Indeed you are already involved in this forum. Every time you post here, you become further drawn into its web!

If you are talking about Sajem Tan, I know Shanoxilt is active at The Abbey Glossopoeia on Discord. He's a regular poster there. CBB also has a Discord channel which you might also consider.
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3031
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Salmoneus »

CAVEAT: I AM NOT A LAWYER.

But...


On copyright: it's unclear whether you can copyright a language. Logically, you shouldn't be able to. However, the corporate 'owners' of celebrity conlangs, like Klingon, have traditionally claimed that you can, and that they have. Last time I looked into it, the question hadn't been settled by the courts - people have been sued, or threatened with suit, but it's not in anyone's interest to actually go to trial (fans might be right, but they'll lose because Paramount and Disney and company have a lot more money; the studios might win, but the PR of pummelling enthusiastic fans into the ground for geeking out in Klingon would cost them far more than the victory would be worth).

However, you can definitely copyright the specific documents in which you present the language.

Regarding 'getting' copyright: you already have. Anything you make is automatically copyrighted under the Berne convention. You do NOT need to put a copyright notice on anything.

However, putting a copyright notice on something means:
- people are maybe less likely to copy it, because the notice warns them. Then again, if someone's going to copy conlangs off the internet, I'm not sure a copyright notice will stop them.
- if you need to take someone to court because they've copied you, being able to point to a copyright notice makes it easier to prove that you're the original author. That said, it's not the only way.
- if you need to take someone to court because they've copied you, in some countries (including in the US) you can only claim monetary compensation for damages if the perpetrator cannot claim the copying was an innocent mistake. Having a highly visible copyright notice makes it much harder for them to claim they didn't realise they were infringing copyright, so in practice a copyright notice makes a big difference if you're seeking damages.

Note that although in theory copyright 'should' identify your legal name, at least in the UK it's accepted that pseudonyms and trading names can validly be used in copyright notices to retain anonymity.

There's also the issue of 'registering' copyright. You can put a copyright notice on anything you have copyright on. You can also pay various bodies in different countries to register your copyright. This might be more intimidating for infringers, and it will provide an extremely strong form of evidence of your ownership of the copyright. In some countries, it may also affect the ability to seek damages (in the US, you must register to seek damages and attorney's fees - however, you can register AFTER infringement to seek both lost profits and actual damages... but to seek statutory damages you need to have registered BEFORE the infringement).




However, I personally wouldn't worry about it that much. Conlangs have very little financial value, and it's hard to imagine a scenario in which it would actually be worth suing someone over one. There have been one or two people online who have stolen other people's work... but since there's no money in it, nor really any prestige (and any prestige for the perpetrator is demolished by being outed), it's not worth going after them (not to mention that it would be expensive even to work out the perpetrator's real identity!). Sure, we could all dream of Disney coming in and stealing our conlang to use in the next big megafranchise... but there's very few 'successful' conlangs in that sense, Disney know enough not to just steal something, if they did they'd probably offer a settlement just to avoid the bad publicity, if it came to trial they'd crush you by weight of attorneys anyway, and in any case I'm not sure how substantial the damages could really be anyway (they would argue that any financial value comes from the exposure they provide - it's not like you'd actually be losing anything). So...
Johnathan_4
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Jul 2021 22:14

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Johnathan_4 »

Thank you guys so much! I did a calligraphy piece of the orthography of the Common Honey language and they found it. Thank you Salmoneus for all of that information! Yeah I would like to start looking at other people's languages on here too! I've looked at a couple already and really like what I see! [:D]
NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, GET UP, DRESS UP. SHOW UP, AND NEVER GIVE UP. [:D]
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3021
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by elemtilas »

Regarding lawyers: You can read the pertinent legals here as regards what's been done in US law thus far. It's not that it's unclear in the US at least, it's just that the issue has not been ruled on.

EU (and presumably peri-Brexit-UK law) may vary.

Basically, nullum crimen sine lege. It's therefore up to you whether you want to risk publication. But on the other hand, really, apart from us here and in a few other forums, no one's really going to care all that much!
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3031
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Salmoneus »

elemtilas wrote: 26 Jul 2021 21:54 Again, the long and short of it is that languages in and of themselves are not copyrightable
But again, while this is the LCS' position, I can't find anything saying that that's actually the law. I agree with the LCS that that's what the law SHOULD be, but only a court can decide whether that's actually what the law IS. Paramount in this case, once challenged, realised they had no interest in wading into untested waters and muddying the more straightforward parts of their case, particularly since it could have resulted in the court ruling against them. But by not pressing that issue into court, they didn't give up their potential rights - on the contrary, they preserved their right to make that argument in future, by avoiding having their argument ruled against now. Where an issue has not been decided by the court, it remains unclear how the court would rule, and hence what the law is - as witnessed by the various court rulings on digital intellectual property over the last decade or two that have widely surprised experts!

It should in particulary be mentioned that Paramount DOES hold a registered legal copyright over Klingon. The LCS believes - and I agree - that they shouldn't have been granted registration of this copyright, because Klingon is not copyrightable. If a court agreed with this position, it would invalidate Paramount's claims to copyright over the language. But that hasn't happened yet.

I think it's fair to say that when the US government, through the copyright office, says that one thing is the case, yet common sense and several lawyers claim that it is not the case, and no judge has actually ruled on whether it's the case or not, it's not unfair to describe it as "unclear" whether or not it's the case!

[the Klingon case is in any case not entire generalisable to the rest of us - as the LCS case argued, Klingon, like Esperanto, may have become a living language, and this may seriously influence copyrightability.]
Johnathan_4
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Jul 2021 22:14

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Johnathan_4 »

I agree that one cannot own a language even if it was created by a sole person. If I wanted to speak in Klingon to you guys (which I can't since I don't know how to) it would be ridiculous to think that I am "stealing" Klingon and the persons ideas who created it initially. I wouldn't want to be sued for speaking Klingon because its not mine. I think that is absurd. So, I agree that it is absurd to try to copyright a conlang because everyone knows that languages change and evolve over time anyway. The only reason why I brought this topic up initially is because I was acting cautious for one and second I am genuinely interested in sharing with the conlang community. It's amazing to be around like minded people who share the same enthusiasm I have for constructed languages!
NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, GET UP, DRESS UP. SHOW UP, AND NEVER GIVE UP. [:D]
Johnathan_4
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Jul 2021 22:14

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Johnathan_4 »

Once I finish typing up my grammar and dictionary Ill send you guys a link to check out the Tɐ ́lʒrəK language. It shouldn't be too long of a wait. I know you guys will like it! Thank you for the support! [:)]
NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, GET UP, DRESS UP. SHOW UP, AND NEVER GIVE UP. [:D]
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3021
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by elemtilas »

(in error)
Last edited by elemtilas on 27 Jul 2021 02:27, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3021
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by elemtilas »

But again, while this is the LCS' position, I can't find anything saying that that's actually the law.
Of course, I never said there was any law regarding whether or not an invented language can be copyrighted. What I said was that Paramount was moved in some way to withdraw their claim to be able to copyright Klingon, an invented language. I also said that, because of that stance, the court did not rule on the issue. You can read exactly what's happened by following the link.

What this means realistically is someone like Jonathan (a small fish in a very deep ocean) will be unable to enforce that which Paramount (a very large fish in a small lake) could not or would not.

I agree with the LCS that that's what the law SHOULD be, but only a court can decide whether that's actually what the law IS.
Yes and no. One path is for two big fish to fight it out in court (Tolkien Estate vs Amazon, perhaps?) in which case a precedent would be set. The other is for an enterprising congressman who happens to either be a language inventor or loves the art to sponsor a bill or sneak it into some massive barrel of porkulosity, thus actually making a law about it.

It's neither here nor there, but while I'm happy to read and analyse and advertise the LCS's position as best I can, I rather lean towards being of the opinion that this NOT what the law should be. I believe that a language inventor has created a work of art or skilled craft and ought to be able to assert rights over it. For most of us, this is a moot point. While I understand that languages in general are systems of communication and the LCS opines that they ought not be copyrightable, to be frank, a language like Queranarran or Talarian is not actually designed to be a "communication system" the way Esperanto is. I should be able to determine whether I keep it private & copyrighted or whether I release it into the wild, which I've also done in the past.


Paramount in this case, once challenged, realised they had no interest in wading into untested waters and muddying the more straightforward parts of their case, particularly since it could have resulted in the court ruling against them. But by not pressing that issue into court, they didn't give up their potential rights - on the contrary, they preserved their right to make that argument in future, by avoiding having their argument ruled against now. Where an issue has not been decided by the court, it remains unclear how the court would rule, and hence what the law is - as witnessed by the various court rulings on digital intellectual property over the last decade or two that have widely surprised experts!
Indeed, and they can certainly try. There are no guarantees, but you're correct that it's untested waters. What it is mostly is the most backside of the Moon of untested waters. I personally doubt they'll bother making it an issue again. And we're back to square one: no law no crime.
It should in particular be mentioned that Paramount DOES hold a registered legal copyright over Klingon. The LCS believes - and I agree - that they shouldn't have been granted registration of this copyright, because Klingon is not copyrightable. If a court agreed with this position, it would invalidate Paramount's claims to copyright over the language. But that hasn't happened yet.
Indeed.
I think it's fair to say that when the US government, through the copyright office, says that one thing is the case, yet common sense and several lawyers claim that it is not the case, and no judge has actually ruled on whether it's the case or not, it's not unfair to describe it as "unclear" whether or not it's the case!
Yet this is the world we live in. Until a court decides or a law is made, it's perfectly clear that there is no law. Both sides take a risk, of course, and either side could lose. Again, for most of us, the point is moot. No one wants to steal our invented languages, and most of us are simply too busy to bother with trying to steal anyone else's. There is, of course, always the exception to prove the rule. Namely the by now forgotten but once infamous neography thief.
the Klingon case is in any case not entire generalisable to the rest of us - as the LCS case argued, Klingon, like Esperanto, may have become a living language, and this may seriously influence copyrightability.
That's a whole nother kettle of fish!
Johnathan_4
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 54
Joined: 24 Jul 2021 22:14

Re: My Introduction and Conlang

Post by Johnathan_4 »

elemtilas,
elemtilas wrote: 27 Jul 2021 02:26
But again, while this is the LCS' position, I can't find anything saying that that's actually the law.
Of course, I never said there was any law regarding whether or not an invented language can be copyrighted. What I said was that Paramount was moved in some way to withdraw their claim to be able to copyright Klingon, an invented language. I also said that, because of that stance, the court did not rule on the issue. You can read exactly what's happened by following the link.

What this means realistically is someone like Jonathan (a small fish in a very deep ocean) will be unable to enforce that which Paramount (a very large fish in a small lake) could not or would not.

I agree with the LCS that that's what the law SHOULD be, but only a court can decide whether that's actually what the law IS.
Yes and no. One path is for two big fish to fight it out in court (Tolkien Estate vs Amazon, perhaps?) in which case a precedent would be set. The other is for an enterprising congressman who happens to either be a language inventor or loves the art to sponsor a bill or sneak it into some massive barrel of porkulosity, thus actually making a law about it.

It's neither here nor there, but while I'm happy to read and analyse and advertise the LCS's position as best I can, I rather lean towards being of the opinion that this NOT what the law should be. I believe that a language inventor has created a work of art or skilled craft and ought to be able to assert rights over it. For most of us, this is a moot point. While I understand that languages in general are systems of communication and the LCS opines that they ought not be copyrightable, to be frank, a language like Queranarran or Talarian is not actually designed to be a "communication system" the way Esperanto is. I should be able to determine whether I keep it private & copyrighted or whether I release it into the wild, which I've also done in the past.


Paramount in this case, once challenged, realised they had no interest in wading into untested waters and muddying the more straightforward parts of their case, particularly since it could have resulted in the court ruling against them. But by not pressing that issue into court, they didn't give up their potential rights - on the contrary, they preserved their right to make that argument in future, by avoiding having their argument ruled against now. Where an issue has not been decided by the court, it remains unclear how the court would rule, and hence what the law is - as witnessed by the various court rulings on digital intellectual property over the last decade or two that have widely surprised experts!
Indeed, and they can certainly try. There are no guarantees, but you're correct that it's untested waters. What it is mostly is the most backside of the Moon of untested waters. I personally doubt they'll bother making it an issue again. And we're back to square one: no law no crime.
It should in particular be mentioned that Paramount DOES hold a registered legal copyright over Klingon. The LCS believes - and I agree - that they shouldn't have been granted registration of this copyright, because Klingon is not copyrightable. If a court agreed with this position, it would invalidate Paramount's claims to copyright over the language. But that hasn't happened yet.
Indeed.
I think it's fair to say that when the US government, through the copyright office, says that one thing is the case, yet common sense and several lawyers claim that it is not the case, and no judge has actually ruled on whether it's the case or not, it's not unfair to describe it as "unclear" whether or not it's the case!
Yet this is the world we live in. Until a court decides or a law is made, it's perfectly clear that there is no law. Both sides take a risk, of course, and either side could lose. Again, for most of us, the point is moot. No one wants to steal our invented languages, and most of us are simply too busy to bother with trying to steal anyone else's. There is, of course, always the exception to prove the rule. Namely the by now forgotten but once infamous neography thief.
the Klingon case is in any case not entire generalisable to the rest of us - as the LCS case argued, Klingon, like Esperanto, may have become a living language, and this may seriously influence copyrightability.
That's a whole nother kettle of fish!
I hear you
NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, GET UP, DRESS UP. SHOW UP, AND NEVER GIVE UP. [:D]
Post Reply