A South-Romance Romlang

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Omzinesý
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A South-Romance Romlang

Post by Omzinesý »

A South-Romance Romlang

As usual with my new langs, this project does not have a name yet.

Geographically, the lang is positioned on an island in Ionian Sea. The number of its speakers is between 200000 and 500000.

It is affected by Greek and sounds very similar. It basically has many fricatives.

It can be classified as a South Romance language. That is, vowels of Classical Latin just lose length distinction ā => a, ē => e, ī => i, ō => o, ū => u.

Grammatically it is conservative. It preserves three noun cases: nominative, accusative, and dative.


Phonology and Phonological History
Consonant inventory
p t t͡s c k
f θ s ç x
v ð z ʝ ɣ
m n ɲ ŋ
l r (j)

Vowel inventory:
i u
e o
ä

Allophony
Velars (k, x, ɣ) merge with the corresponding palatals before front vowels (i, e).
The distinction between /j/ and / ʝ/ is a bit questionable.

Stress always falls on the penultimate syllable.




Sound changes affecting vowels
1. Loss of Classical Latin vowel length
With exception of ē => i in last (unstressed) syllables
Lat. rēgēs => reʝis <regis> ‘kings’
2. Tendency to regularize paradigms by bringing stress to the stem
Lat. cantámus => cántamus (=> canthaus) ‘we sing’
3. Antepenultimate stress becomes penultimate stress
a) “Loss of second open syllable”
Lat. dóminus => domnus => dounus ‘mister’
b) Loss of a (voiced) consonant between the ultima and penultimate syllable.
(Lat. cantámus =>) cánthamus => canthaus ‘we sing’


Sound changes affecting consonants (The ordering is not historical but one where rules have the right input.)

1. Labialized velars become labials
Lat. aqua => apa (=> afa) ‘water’
LateLat. que => pe ‘what?’

2. Latin velars become palatals (but not affricates) before front vowels (i and e).

3. /tj/ and /dj/, often older /te/+V and /te/+V become affricates /ts/ and /dz/, respectively.
Lat. deus => djus => dzus (=> zus) ‘god‘

4. Voiced stops and affricates lenite to fricatives in all positions.
Lat. dominus => ðominus (=> θounus) ’mister’
Lat. bebeba => veveva (=>vevja) ’drank’

5. Voiced fricatives are lost after nasals but the nasal assimilates with it.
From Old French man.ʝo => maɲo ‘I eat’

6. Voiceless stops lenite to fricatives between vowel (V_V) and between a resonant and a vowel (R_V).
Lat. mater => maθer ‘mother’
Late Lat. <canto> kanto => kanθo ’I sing’

7. /kt/ => tt
lactem => latte (=> late)

8. Geminate stops become short.
/vakka/ => /vaka/ <vaca> ‘cow’

9. /j/ becomes / ʝ/ in many (all?) positions.

10. Non-strident voiced stops (ð ʝ ɣ) are devoiced word-initially.
(Lat. domum =>) ðomu => θomu <domu> ‘house/home’
(Lat. juvenem =>) ʝune => çune <giune> ‘young’


Orthography
Vowels are simple written with <a, e, i, o, u>.
Consonants
p <p>, t <t>, t͡s <ts>, c <c>(before front-vowels) <ci> (before non-front vowels), k <c> (before non-front vowels)
f <f> (when from Lat. /f/) <ph> (when from Lat. /p/), θ <d> (word-initially) <th> (elsewhere), s <s>, ç <g> (before front-vowels word-intially) <ch> (before front vowels non-word-initially) <gi> (before non-front-vowels word-intially) <chi> (before non-front vowels non-word-initially), x <g> (word-intially) <ch> (non-word-initially)
v <v>, ð <d>, z <z>, ʝ <g> (before front-vowels) <gi> (before front vowels), ɣ <g>
m <m>, n <n>, ɲ <ng> (before front vowels) <ngi> before non-front vowels) ŋ <ng>
l <l>, r <r>, j <i>

<h> is sometimes used after <i> to mark that it is not pronounced /j/. <teologiha> [te.o.lo.’ʝi.a]
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Omzinesý
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Re: A South-Romance Romlang

Post by Omzinesý »

I found up name Palchoria for the island and the lang should then be Palchorian.
It sounds like a good name for an island in Mediterranean.

But does such a place happen to already exist?
Google links Theophanis Chronographia, when searching with "palchorian" but I don't know.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 27 Aug 2021 00:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Pabappa
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Re: A South-Romance Romlang

Post by Pabappa »

Very nice. I like that you kept the -s. And the noun case system. That's a lot of fricatives, though .... considering how rare geminates were in classical Latin, it seems like your words will not have a lot of stops left.
I'll take the theses, and you can have the thoses.
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Re: A South-Romance Romlang

Post by Omzinesý »

Declensions

The lang preserves Latin 1st, 2nd, and 3rd declensions.

It preserves the two numbers: singular and plural. It preserves three cases: nominative, accusative, and dative. The dative later also takes the function of modifying nouns from the genitive, too.


Let us start from the 2nd declension because it is probably best preserved.

Latin Declension, amicus ‘friend’

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	amicus	amici 
ACC	amicum	amicos
DAT	amico	amicis 
1) Word-final m is lost SG.ACC amicu
2) Plural nominative is replaced by plural accusative (analogically with 3rd declension).
3) Singular nominative -s is dropped when the noun is inanimate (analogically with neuter nouns).

The Modern Declension

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	amichus	amichos 
ACC	amichu	amichos
DAT	amicho	amichis 

3rd Declension

Latin declension, rex 'king'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	rēx	regēs	
ACC	rēgem	regēs
DAT	rēgi	regibus 	
1) In final syllables ē => i. PL.NOM & PL.ACC regis
2) The singular nominative is usually generalized based on the singular accusative. SG.NOM reges*
3) b => v, later it is dropped altogether in PL.DAT to preserve penultimate stress.
4) Singular nominative -s is dropped when the noun is inanimate, or rather SG.ACC. is generalized for SG.NOM., in the beginning.

Modern Declension

Code: Select all

	SG		PL
NOM	/reʝes/ reges	/reʝis/ regis	
ACC	/reʝe/ rege	/reʝis/ regis
DAT	/reʝi/ regi	/reʝus/ regius**
* There could be an alternative form rets(e) from the old nominative.
** Usually the plural dative ending is /jus/. After /ʝ/, the /j/ is just dropped.

1st declension is the one that undergoes the most drastic changes, most of which are analogical with the other tho declensions.

Latin Declension, amica 'friend'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	amica	amicae 
ACC	amicam	amicas
DAT	amicae	amicis 		
1) Word-final /m/ is lost. SG.ACC. amica
2) /s/ is added to SG.NOM of animate nouns, analogically with the other declensions, to maintain distinction between SG.NOM. and SG.ACC.
3) PL.NOM. and PL.ACC are replaces by -es. It can also be seen as a combination of the old endings /e/ and /as/. The motivation between replacing them is that they are identical with SG.DAT. and PL.NOM.

Modern Declension

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	amichas	amiches 
ACC	amicha	amiches
DAT	amiche	amichis 		

General remarks on the declensions

Singular nominative is the singular accusative for inanimate nouns.
Singular nominative is the singular accusative + /s/ for animate nouns.
(There might be some singular nominatives deriving from the old Latin singular nominatives in the 3rd declension.)

Plural nominative and plural accusative are always identical.

The plural nominative-accusative always is the singular dative + /s/.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: A South-Romance Romlang

Post by Omzinesý »

Pabappa wrote: 26 Aug 2021 23:38 Very nice. I like that you kept the -s. And the noun case system. That's a lot of fricatives, though .... considering how rare geminates were in classical Latin, it seems like your words will not have a lot of stops left.
Thank you for your comment.


Word-initial voiceless stops are still there.
cavalus 'horse'

Latin /kt/ also realizes as /t/.
Latin: lactem
Spanish: leche
Italian: latte
This lang: late

Stops after /s/s are also preserved. I don't know know is word-internal coda /s/s are preserved themselves (pasta or pâtée?).

New voiceless stops are also borrowed, from Classical Latin and Greek in culture words, from Italian, etc.


Actually, this lang makes the same voiceless stops voiceless fricatives as what West-Romance makes voiced stops/fricatives.
Spanish: /amiɣo/
This lang: /amixus/

Voiced stops do not exist, even allophonically, but that was my purpose. I think there are Spanish dialects where they are voiced fricatives even word-initially.
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Re: A South-Romance Romlang

Post by Omzinesý »

Verbs

First the stress shifts to the stem, and then the syllable between the stressed syllable and the last syllable dissappears. In the infinitive, e is elided. In pl1 and pl2 the consonant is lost.

Canthre 'to sing'

PRESENT
Cantho 'I sing'
Canthas 'you sing'
Cantha 's/he sings'
Canthaus 'we sing'
Canthais 'you sing'
Canthan 'they sing'

The future is formed with prefix vol-, which derives from verb 'to want'.

FUTURE
Volcantho 'I will sing'
Volcanthas 'you will sing'
Volcantha 's/he will sing'
Volcanthaus 'we will sing'
Volcanthais 'you will sing'
Volcanthan 'they will sing'

[Past tenses are not ready. There are two roads they can take.]
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Re: A South-Romance Romlang

Post by Backstroke_Italics »

I'm sure it's intentional, but that is one extremely conservative language. If I may offer some feedback:

good: I like that some of the changes are found in other perpheral Romance languages, and in generally most of them feel very justified.

not so good: I think if you used more of the common changes that swept through the majority of late VL dialects, the language would feel more connected to the rest of the family. Also your ratio of vowel to consonant changes is very unusual, and causes the end result to feel artificial to me. Hint, hint: I hear Greek has some famous vowel shifts you could steal.
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Re: A South-Romance Romlang

Post by Omzinesý »

Backstroke_Italics wrote: 16 Sep 2021 03:29 I'm sure it's intentional, but that is one extremely conservative language. If I may offer some feedback:

good: I like that some of the changes are found in other perpheral Romance languages, and in generally most of them feel very justified.

not so good: I think if you used more of the common changes that swept through the majority of late VL dialects, the language would feel more connected to the rest of the family. Also your ratio of vowel to consonant changes is very unusual, and causes the end result to feel artificial to me. Hint, hint: I hear Greek has some famous vowel shifts you could steal.
Thank your for your constructive feedback.
I partially agree with it.

I don't see how it is extremely conservative.
The lang is conservative in having the three cases, much analogically altered. Its verbs might be even more innovative than those of West-Romance (I have two alternative ways to proceed with them).
Italian consonants surely have less changes than that language.

My understanding is that vowels in South Romance languages are the ones this lang has. I think the ratio of consonant/vowel changes is similar in all South Romance languages. I may be wrong because I don't know them at all.
Greek vowel shift copied in Non-South Romance could probably have /e/ => /i/ or /ɛ/ => /i/, but that's not south Romance. It is worth considering. Long /e:/ in final syllables already became /i/.

I, myself, still find the stress shifts the most atypical for romance languages, and maybe the analogical use of the nominative -s.
I think lenition of voiceless stops to voiceless fricatives does not appear in any Romance language, but it is such a common change typologically, that it could well happen.
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Re: A South-Romance Romlang

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

Omzinesý wrote: 16 Sep 2021 19:57 I think lenition of voiceless stops to voiceless fricatives does not appear in any Romance language, but it is such a common change typologically, that it could well happen.
/p t k/ > [ɸ θ h] happens allophonically (intervocalically when not blocked by a pause) in Tuscan dialects, occasionally combined with /b d g/ > [β ð ɣ]; not exactly a sound change, but halfway there.
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