Should I/How to add phonotactics to phonotactics - less languages?

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Boka B
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Should I/How to add phonotactics to phonotactics - less languages?

Post by Boka B »

Hello there. I have got a few languages which I made before knowing about the existence of phonotactics,so they obviously lack them. However,they were only very little developed and highly partial. Also,I tried to keep the new words sounding like the rest of the language,so I think that I had the general idea of the concept and that making a set of phonotactics should not be that hard.
Should I:
1. Keep them as they are and continue living?I do not think that phonotactics are really needed actually,unless you want to be quite realistic.
2. Make phonotactics for them?I want to change them as much unchanged as possible,so this may be tough. Hints about that?
3. Discard them?
Enjoy your life and all the best!
Have a suuuuperior day!

Boka B
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Creyeditor
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Re: Should I/How to add phonotactics to phonotactics - less languages?

Post by Creyeditor »

Or 4. Check your existing vocabulary for phonotactics, e.g. syllable structure, word structure, morpheme structure. Then make you intuitive ideas into explicit generalizations.
For example, I recently noted that my conlang Kobardon does not allow root syllables with a complex onset and a complex coda if both contain /r/ or more sucvinclty, the structure CrVrC is not attested as a root. I only noticed this after looking at the roots I created and it emerged naturally from a general feeling before. I only made it explicit afterwards.
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Vlürch
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Re: Should I/How to add phonotactics to phonotactics - less languages?

Post by Vlürch »

Boka B wrote: 21 Sep 2021 20:271. Keep them as they are and continue living?
Conlangs aren't something to die over, so yeah, you should continue living. [:O] Sorry, couldn't resist...

But in all seriousness, what Creyeditor said.

Also keep in mind that it's possible that phonotactics that generally hold aren't absolute. Onomatopoeia/ideophones and loanwords can have more complex syllables than ordinary native vocabulary, and it's possible that under their influence, slang and other neologisms can come to have those kinds of syllables as well. For example, in Finnish there are no word-initial consonant clusters in native vocabulary, but in onomatopoeia and loanwords there can be up to three. At least old Helsinki slang for some reason also has random word-initial clusters.
Boka B
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Re: Should I/How to add phonotactics to phonotactics - less languages?

Post by Boka B »

Vlürch wrote: 21 Sep 2021 23:46
Boka B wrote: 21 Sep 2021 20:271. Keep them as they are and continue living?
Conlangs aren't something to die over, so yeah, you should continue living. [:O] Sorry, couldn't resist...

But in all seriousness, what Creyeditor said.

Also keep in mind that it's possible that phonotactics that generally hold aren't absolute. Onomatopoeia/ideophones and loanwords can have more complex syllables than ordinary native vocabulary, and it's possible that under their influence, slang and other neologisms can come to have those kinds of syllables as well. For example, in Finnish there are no word-initial consonant clusters in native vocabulary, but in onomatopoeia and loanwords there can be up to three. At least old Helsinki slang for some reason also has random word-initial clusters.
It was not meant to suggest that I should kill them,but instead to keep them phonotactics - less. Also,an infinite number of languages already exist, they just have to be discovered.
Enjoy your life and all the best!
Have a suuuuperior day!

Boka B
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Should I/How to add phonotactics to phonotactics - less languages?

Post by eldin raigmore »

Isn’t there a correlation between having a small phoneme-inventory and having few phonotactic rules?
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Flavia
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Re: Should I/How to add phonotactics to phonotactics - less languages?

Post by Flavia »

Enjoy your life and all the best!
Have a suuuuperior day!

Boka B
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Re: Should I/How to add phonotactics to phonotactics - less languages?

Post by Creyeditor »

eldin raigmore wrote: 22 Sep 2021 16:45 Isn’t there a correlation between having a small phoneme-inventory and having few phonotactic rules?
I don't think there is. But there might very well be a correlation between large phoneme inventories and many 'false', i.e. non-systematic/accidental static generalizations. If you have a lot of phonemes, you probably will not have enough words to have every phoneme in every context. Maybe that's the same thing, idk.
Edit: I am afraid, I did not provide any evidence for my claim. So here are some phonotactic generalizations that I can remember of the top of my head. They are from Mee (alias Ekari/Ekagi). Mee has a famously small consonant inventory without any fricatives. Nevertheless, there are some clear phontactic generalizations concerning syllables, morphemes and words.
  • Roots cannot consist of a single consonant. Affixes can, e.g. -p PERF.
  • Roots cannot end in consonant. Again, affixes can, e.g. -eg REC.PST
  • Syllables are either (C)V or (C)VV.
  • Verb and noun roots are at least monosyllabic.
  • Verb and noun words are at least bimoraic, i.e. (C)VV or (C)VCV.
  • Vowel-initial suffixes can only begin with front vowels, e.g. -inee VOL, -eg REC.PST. Other morphemes can start with back vowels, e.g. uwo water.
  • Affixes can be maximally bisyllabic, e.g. -yake SEQ, -yogo SIM, -yawi bring and .... Roots can be longer, e.g. anigo wake up.
  • I think there are further restrictions e.g. on coocurring vowels in consecutive syllables in roots and intervocalic consonants inside affixes but I am not so sure about it.
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