Dleesoop

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Omzinesý
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

I'm again trying to translate the Bible text from https://www.easyenglish.bible/bible/easy/genesis/38/

6 Judah found a wife for his oldest son, Er. Her name was Tamar.
Iuuda', tzáapike' kip-wapa',zeet Tamar, hii hetl, zeet Ede.
Iuuda', tzáapi-ke' kip-wapa',zeet Tamar, hii hetl, zeet Ede
Judah, look.for-RESULT SPOUSE, call "T", for CHILD, call "E"
lit. 'Duhad found a spouse, who was called Tamar, for his son, who was called Er.'

7 But the Lord saw that Er, Judah's firstborn son, was very bad. So the Lord made him die.
[hat'ka:hi:t , atki:'ɾe:ke'eɾe , 'ha:po:ta:]
Hat-kaaiit, atkiidéeke "Ede", háapootaa.
hat-kaa-iit, atkii-dee-ke Ede, haap-oot-aa
spirit-exist-CAUS be_bad-PERCEIVED-RESULT ede, live-make_stop-sg3

8 Then Judah said to Onan, ‘You should marry your dead brother's wife and have sex with her.
Iuuda', eed Onan: "wápiiko' kip-wapa ( ) zewoo' ".
Iuuda', eed Onan: "wapa-iik-o' kip-wapa ( ) zewa-o' "
"J", say "O": marry:INCH-OPT spouse-marry (of your brother?) have_zex_OPT

You are her dead husband's brother.
Muumu, nuut-puudde tee kip-wapa, uuno.
sg2 sibling-male belong.to spouse.married, be.dead

You must have a son who will become your dead brother's descendant.’
Zawatoo'ke het-puudde, hetl tee nuutmuu, uuno.
zawa-too-o'-ke hetl-puudde, hetl tee nuut-muu, uuno
have.sex-PROSP-IMP-RESULT child-male, child belong.to sibling-sg2, be dead

9 But Onan did not want Tamar to give birth to his child.
Onana, kesadloko waake Tamata hetl tee Ede.
Onana, kesa-dloko waa-ke Tamata hetl tee Ede
O, want-NEG.RESULT give.birth-RESULT T child belong.to E

He knew that the child would not belong to him.
Petteeke, teetoohiitsuu hetl.
['pe.t̪e:.ke (.) t̪e:.ɾ̪o:.'hi:.t̪͡s̪u: 'het̪͡ɬ̪]
pettee-ke, tee-too-hiits-uu hetl
know-RESULT, belong.to-PROSP-NEG.IRRESULT-sg3O child

So when he had sex with his brother's wife Tamar, he made his semen go onto the ground.
Záwawon na Tamata; hátziitke suuk-puudde mo'.
zawa-won na Tamata; hatza-iit-ke suuk-puudde mo'
have.sex with T; on-CAUS-RESULT liquid-male ground

Onan did this so that Tamar would not give birth to a child for his dead brother.
Hip, waadoodloko hetl, tee nuut, uuno.
hip, waa-doo-dloko hetl, tee nuut, uuno.
do.that, give.birth-PROSP-NEG.RESULT child, belong.to sibling, be.dead


What Onan did was bad, and the Lord was not pleased with him. So the Lord caused Onan to die too. 11 Then Judah said to his son's widow, Tamar, ‘Go back to your father's house and live there as a widow. Stay there until my son Shelah grows older.’ Judah thought, ‘I do not want Shelah to die in the way that his brothers died.’ So Tamar went to live in her father's house.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 26 Aug 2022 18:18, edited 18 times in total.
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by eldin raigmore »

Omzinesý wrote: 26 Jul 2022 15:50 ….
1) It codes the complement of mane verbs. Many of them use 'about': to think about, to speak about ...
….
What are mane verbs?
Apparently that’s not a typo for “main”.
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Re: Dleesoop

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eldin raigmore wrote: 26 Jul 2022 18:11
Omzinesý wrote: 26 Jul 2022 15:50 ….
1) It codes the complement of mane verbs. Many of them use 'about': to think about, to speak about ...
….
What are mane verbs?
Apparently that’s not a typo for “main”.
Corrected
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

There is verb tlep 'to mark, to draw a sign'

- tzuu (-dsuu) is a V -> V suffix meaning 'to do repeatedly'.

tleptzuu 'to write' (to drow sevelar marks/letters)

duud is the simple noun 'professional'.

duud-tleptzuu 'secretary' (professional of making several marks)

mik is a simple verb meaning 'a concrete result of V-ing'

mik-tlep 'a letter, a sign, a mark'
mik-tleptzuu 'a book (as the concrete object, not the content)'
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote: 26 Jun 2022 13:30
Keenir wrote: 23 Jun 2022 17:28 this is a very enjoyable read. kudos!
Omzinesý wrote: 16 Jun 2022 17:58My current problem with the syntax.
'Horse' could be "le'-tezuuk" 'a riding animal'
But how do I say 'The animal is a horse.'
"Le', tezuuk." means 'The animal rides.' or 'The animal is ridden.' but not 'The animal is a horse.'
Compound nouns can be more ideosyncratic and specific than clauses which must be somewhat compositional.
hmm...maybe This a-riding-animal is a-riding-animal...removing or cancelling whichever part says its about riding (assuming its a separateable part of the noun - sadly i forget if it was already mentioned)
le' is a classifier/nominalizer/generic noun 'animal'
tezuuk is a verb 'ride'

So the compound is le'-tezuuk 'a riding animal, i.e. horse'

Many verbs are static, like nawe 'to be a cat', so it's easy to say

le'-nawe 'a cat' (an animal that is a cat)
and Le' nawe. 'The animal is a cat.'

but you cannot do the same with 'horse' because tezuuk is not a static verb meaning 'to be a horse' but a dunamic verb meaning 'to ride'. There is no copula in Dleesoop.

But I think I solved the problem by adding the classifier/nominalizer/generic noun as a suffix.
tezuuk-le' 'to be a horse'


Thank you, anyway.
I think the solution could be that all simple nouns (I decided to use that term) have a short vowel and they can be made stative verbs by lengthening the vowel.

Dlo', tezuuk le'.
person, ride animal
'The person rides an animal.'

Dlo', lee'-tezuuk.
person, be_animal-ride
'The person is a horse (i.e. a riding-animal)'
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Preposition

etek 'in'
more prepositions will appear later


Prepositions can be used as adjuncts, much like in English.

etek at-haat
in building-spirit
'in a/the temple'


They can also agree persons.

eteklo 'in me'
etko 'in it'
...


They can also be used as predicates. They thus resemble those of, say, Vietnamese.

Dlo', etek at-haat.
person, (be_)in building-spirit
'The person is in the temple.'

At-haat, etek od-dsee
building-spirit, is_in place_live
'The temple is in the village.'


There is -construction can also have PPs:

Od-dsee, ka at-haat (etko).
place-live, exist building-spirit (in it)
'There is a temple in the village.'
lit. 'The village has a temple (in it).'
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Re: Dleesoop

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I'm making Dleesoop motion verbs.

They should code
1) direction: enter, leave, move about
2) location: go in, go on the surface etc.
3) manner: walk, swim, run
4) deixis: come here, go there
5) causation: go -> take, come -> bring
6) possibly also some nominal classifier of the thing moving

I think there should be what are called instrumental affixes in North American linguistics.

In Dleesoop they are suffixes. Historically they are incorporated objects (see VO order).

-kll 'by hand'
-so/-zo 'mouth'
-wi 'with a partner, co-, together'

powok 'to take'
-> powokll 'take by hand'
-> powokso 'to take into your mouth'
-> powokwi 'to share together'

seho 'to push'
-> sekokll 'push with hands'
-> sehowi 'to join'

etok 'to enter'
-> etokll 'to stick your hand in'
> etekwi 'to merge'

leme 'to toutch'
-> lemeso 'to kiss'

iino 'to swim'
-> iinowi 'to have sex'


et_k 'inside'
hatza 'on the surface'

They could take prepositions as their stems and use the inchoative etc. suffixes.

etkiik
etek-iik
in-INCHOATIVE
'to enter'

etkiit
etek-iit
in-CAUSATIVE
'to put in'

etkook
etek-ook
in-CESSATIVE
'to leave'

etkoot
etek-oot
in-CESSATIVE.CAUSATIVE
'to take away'

This codes 1), 2), and 5) quite nicely.

4) deixis could also be a feature of the preposition itself. Maybe etek 'in there', etik 'in here' ??

6) Could be based on incorporating a simple noun in the end of the verb.

étkiitmat
etek-iit-mat
in-CAUS-big_object
'to put a big object in'

So, the only category whose coding I haven't found up is 3) manner, the one that is usually coded lexically.
Does anybody know a grammar that describes motion verbs in a polysynthetic lang, that I could get ideas from?
Last edited by Omzinesý on 01 Sep 2022 19:13, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Construct state

Construct state is formed of nouns. It is used when the noun is modified by either another noun (like genitive modifiers) or a relative clause.

Formation
Construct state is formed supra-segmentally by giving the word a rising accent. The placement of the accent does not move.

(1a) hit-íino [hit.ˈʔi:˦˧.no] 'boat'
(1b) hit-iíno duud-neetatz [hit.ˈʔi:˩˥.no.tu:t.'n̪e:˦˧.t̪at̪͡s̪] 'the boat of the fisherman'

The rising accent can appear only on a long vowel. A short vowel is thus lengthened in the construct state.

(2a) le'-nawe [ɬeʔ.'na˦.we] 'cat'
(2b) le'-naáwe dlo' [ɬeʔ.'na:˩˥.we.'t͡ɬoʔ˦] 'the cat of a person'

Edit: I don't know what happens if the accent lies on a syllabic consonant. They cannot be lengthened and thus have a rising tone.



Use
The construct state is used if another noun modifies the noun (the examples above).

It is possible to omit a possessor, if the possessive relation is evident. Construct state is not used in those instances.
(3a) pée-waa '(my) mother'
(3b) peé-waa luu 'my mother'

The construct state is also used when a relative clause modifies the noun.

(4a)
Dlo', dloo hetl.
'The person saw a child.'

(4b)
Dlo', dloo heétl, suukatlono suuk-tzoop.
'The person saw a child who was drinking alcohol.'

Because relative clauses do not internally differ from normal clauses, (4b) without the construct state of hetl is a coordinated clause sharing a topic (4c), i.e. 'the person' is both seeing a child and drinking alcohol.

(4c)
Dlo', dloo hetl, suukatlono suuk-tzoop.
'The person saw a child and was drinking alcohol.'


Edit: I think the modifier could also be a PP, but I am not sure.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 03 Nov 2022 14:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Denominal verbs are derived with prefixes. They are extremely productive, but many coined words have more specific meanings.
Edit: I should think how consonant harmony reacts.


so-/zo- 'to eat/drink N, to consume N'
Sometimes the simple noun is dropped from the compound. Dropping is always idiosyncratic.

suuk 'water, liquid'
-> sosuuk 'to drink water'

suuk-tzoop 'alcohol'
-> sosuuktzoop 'to drink alcohol'
or
-> zotzoop

net 'fish'
-> zonet 'to eat fish'

wo' 'time, period'
-> sowo' 'to spend time'

zeet 'name, word'
-> zozeet 'to get bad reputation'

suuk-wiiho 'tea'
-> sosuukwiiho 'to drink tea'
or
-> sowiiho

o- 'to use'

hit-iino 'boat (floating vehicle)'
-> ohitiino 'to go by boat'

zeet 'name, word'
-> ozeet 'to use a word/name'

sed 'tool'
-> osed 'to use a tool'

duud 'a professional'
-> oduud 'to hire a professional'


we- 'to make, to produce'

sed 'a tool'
-> wesed 'to make a tool'

kaat 'food, a dish'
-> wekaat 'to cook'

dse-/tze- 'to become'

dlo'-puudde
-> dsedlo'puudde 'to become a man'

dsaa-/tzaa- 'to make X Y'

Dsaamiklii mak. 'I made a small object from a big object.'
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

I think I'll return to Dleesoop. It still has very simple unsolved issues.
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

I'm still struggling with the genitive.

But I think Dleesoop doesn't have to have one big genitive construction. It does with several verbs.

Omzinesý's name -> the name that Omzinesý uses
Omzinesý's conlang -> the conlang Omzinesý made
Omzinesý's father -> the father that fathered Omzinesý (yes, repetition but less odd in Dleesoop)

cup of tea -> the cup that is (of) tea (tea is a verb)

...
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote: 17 Apr 2022 00:53 Returning to verb morphology

Dleesoop verb morphology is agglutinative and thus simple. All of the suffixes are "optional".

The slots 1 and 2 are the only real affixes. The slots 3, 4, and 5 are rather clitics.

The pattern:
0 root
1 aspect
2 mood {assumed/inferred, reported, non-factual, counterfactual, certain}
3 person
4 {volitional, nonvolitional, resultative, irresultative, negative volitional, negative nonvolitional, negative resultative, negative irresultative}
5 {imperative, interrogative}

I could add an associated motion suffix. It could appear in a new slot 1 before aspect.
There are two of them and verbs can appear without them.

-ka 'and arrive' VENITIVE
-ku 'and leave' ANDATIVE

They are used to bring new entities to the speech context and to take them out.

Huula-nu-lii-doo, dlo-puudde, huula-iik-ka luupi mut-n.
speak-PROG-1stp-VOL.POSSIT, person-be.male, speak-INCH-VENIT issue own-OBL
'We were discussing willingly, when the man came and started speaking about his own things.'
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Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

I listened to the chapter on Srínawésin of Conlangery podcast.
Srínawésin noun system where all nouns are derived from verbs by class markers seems very similar to Dleesoop. I just didn't find the grammar.
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