Dleesoop

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Dleesop ['t͡ɬɛ:so:p] is my newest project.
We will see how far it goes.

Features it will have:
Phonology:
- a dorsal harmony: One word can contain only apicoalveolar or laminodental consonants.
Morphology
- Most nouns consist of a simple noun, which are a closed class, and a verb modifying it. ("Fisherman" instead of just "fisher" is a kind of example in English.)
- Verbs have much morphology but much of it realizes as zero and bare roots are normal.
Syntax
- topic-prominence
- clauses are usually just juxtaposed to form complex sentences.

Phonology

Inflectional morphology
Verb
Noun: Construct State
Noun Oblique form:

Lexicon
Dictionary
Kinship Terms
Last edited by Omzinesý on 30 Aug 2022 16:53, edited 8 times in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Phonology
Consonant phonemes

p t̪ (ɾ̪) t (ɾ) k ʔ
t̪͡s̪ t͡s t͡ɬ
s̪ s ɬ h
m n
w

Word-initially, the phonemic status of the glottal stop /ʔ/ is questionable because it disappears when consonantal prefixes are added, and could thus be analyzed as just a filler of onset.

The language does not have phonetic geminates. When two same stops appear in line, they are pronounced as one short stop, even in slow speech.

The dental and alveolar stops are flapped intervocally. They contrast with plain stops that result from simplification of the respective geminates. It is thus a matter of analysis if
/tt/ => [t] and /t/ => [ɾ]
or
/t/ vs. /ɾ/.

There is a consonant harmony between lamino-dental and apico-alveolar stops, and sibilant affricates and fricatives. That is, dentals and alveolars cannot appear in the same word. Affixes have both dental and alveolar allomorphs. Alveolar laterals and nasals do not have phonemic dental pairs, but they too have dental and alveolar allophones, appearing in words with dentals.
Vowel phonemes
Edit: Dleesoop has five long vowels (basic 5)
i: u: <ii uu>
e: o: <ee oo>
ä: <aa>

and four short vowels (basic 5 minus u)
i <i>
e o <e o>
ä <a>
Phonotactics
Syllables are CV(C).
Only plosives (p t̪ t k ʔ) are allowed in coda in the middle of a word. Plosives (p t̪ t k ʔ) and affricates (t̪͡s̪ t͡s t͡ɬ) are allowed in absolute word ends
Syllabic consonants
There are two syllabic consonants, /n/ and /l/. They work as nucleus of a syllable but the syllable cannot have a coda. Because all Dleesoop words have an onset, also syllables with syllabic consonants do. When they precede a vowel, a consonant identical with the syllabic consonant appears as a hiatus filler/onset.
Syllabic /n/ cannot be preceded by a non-syllabic /n/.
Syllabic /l/ cannot be adjacent to the lateral fricative /ɬ/ or be preceded by the lateral affricate /t͡ɬ/.
Accent
Edit: There is a slight distinction of different tones, so Dleesoop can be described as a pitch-accent language.

Realization of accents
Every word has one and only one accented syllable.
1) When the accent falls on a short vowel or a syllabic consonant, the stress realizes as intensity and a slightly higher pitch.
2) When the accent falls on a long vowel, intensity is one feature but there are two possible distinct tones: i) a flat or slightly lowering tone (written <áa>), and ii) a clearly rising tone (written <aá>). The distinction has mainly morphological uses.

Placement of the accent
In a word without suffixes, the accent is placed on the penultimate syllable. Monosyllabic words, of course, have the accent on the only syllable.

When a monosyllabic suffix is added to a word with a penultimate accent, the accent does not move and the accent lies on the antepenultimate syllable. But when a monosyllabic suffix is added to a word with an antepenultimate accent, the accent moves to the new penultimate syllable of the word.

Orthography
p t̪ (ɾ̪) t (ɾ) k ʔ <p t d k '> (Orthography follows the analyses that the flaps are single stops and intervocalic dorsal stops are geminates.)
t̪͡s̪ t͡s t͡ɬ <tz ds tl/dl*>
s̪ s ɬ h <z s l* h>
m n <m n>
w <w>
Syllabic
n l <n l>

*I'm still considering how to differentiate /t͡ɬ/ and /tl/ word-finally in the orthography.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 30 Aug 2022 14:36, edited 6 times in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
collect_gluesticks
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 27
Joined: 27 Nov 2021 00:49
Contact:

Re: Dleesoop

Post by collect_gluesticks »

It's neat to see someone using consonant harmony. This is the first conlang I've encountered that makes use of it (though there are probably plenty more, and I just live under a rock).

You mention that nouns will have a specific and generic form.
Is there a name for that? Is this different from "agent nouns"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_noun
Is this similar to using a demonstrative or other article?
It sounds intriguing, so I'd love to read up on other languages that do this, if you are aware of any.

Looking forward to seeing more!
:con: website for my conlang, Yeh.
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

collect_gluesticks wrote: 11 Dec 2021 19:25 It's neat to see someone using consonant harmony. This is the first conlang I've encountered that makes use of it (though there are probably plenty more, and I just live under a rock).
Thank you, It's nice to see that someone likes what I do.
I found a grammar book of Nilotic language Uduk https://helda.helsinki.fi//bitstream/ha ... sequence=1 one day. It has a similar consonant harmony and I had to adopt it to my ready-made Nahuatl-inspired consonant inventory.

collect_gluesticks wrote: 11 Dec 2021 19:25 You mention that nouns will have a specific and generic form.
Is there a name for that? Is this different from "agent nouns"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_noun
Is this similar to using a demonstrative or other article?
It sounds intriguing, so I'd love to read up on other languages that do this, if you are aware of any.

Looking forward to seeing more!
"Generic nouns" and "specific nouns" are word classes rather than word forms here. You are right that terms "specific" and "generic" are also used in the same scale as definiteness, but this is (mostly) not about it. (To make things even messier presence of a generic noun could make an NP specific and lack of it could make an NP generic in Dleesoop in some contexts, but let us not go to that yet.)

Specific and generic noun are terms that Dixon uses in his Australian Languages (2002). Generic nouns are kind of noun class / gender markers. They specify a broad category and if needed a specific noun is used to specify the object more. It is a bit redundant but it appears in many Australian languages.

You don't say 'hammer' but you say either 'a hammer tool' or just 'a tool' if it is clear from the context.

Generic nouns can be used as a derivational device and actor nouns could well be derived with one, but the language is not very far yet.

Generic noun is somewhat similar to engendered articles in, say, German that can also be used alone as pronouns, but it is still a noun, not a pronoun, and it does not code definiteness.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Khemehekis
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3883
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Khemehekis »

Your orthography reminds me of Droosem, the official language of the planet Branovia in the Lehola Galaxy!
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
User avatar
collect_gluesticks
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 27
Joined: 27 Nov 2021 00:49
Contact:

Re: Dleesoop

Post by collect_gluesticks »

Omzinesý wrote: 11 Dec 2021 23:23 Specific and generic noun are terms that Dixon uses in his Australian Languages (2002). Generic nouns are kind of noun class / gender markers. They specify a broad category and if needed a specific noun is used to specify the object more. It is a bit redundant but it appears in many Australian languages.
Just when you think you understand languages, you find one from Australia that proves you wrong. This is a concept I've never heard of, and it would be neat to see it show up in a conlang.
:con: website for my conlang, Yeh.
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

collect_gluesticks wrote: 13 Dec 2021 04:33
Omzinesý wrote: 11 Dec 2021 23:23 Specific and generic noun are terms that Dixon uses in his Australian Languages (2002). Generic nouns are kind of noun class / gender markers. They specify a broad category and if needed a specific noun is used to specify the object more. It is a bit redundant but it appears in many Australian languages.
Just when you think you understand languages, you find one from Australia that proves you wrong. This is a concept I've never heard of, and it would be neat to see it show up in a conlang.
Luckily that still happens! Life gets boring when you understand everything.

Khemehekis wrote: 12 Dec 2021 10:14 Your orthography reminds me of Droosem, the official language of the planet Branovia in the Lehola Galaxy!
Probably there is something similar in syllable structure.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

I'm debating with myself if Dleesoop should have a Nahuatl-style interchangeability between nouns and verbs or extensive use of light verbs.

Alternative 1) interchangeability of nouns and verb inspired by Nahuatl
- Generic nouns could be kind of nominalizers/complementizers.
- Specific nouns would be verbs that modify generic nouns as relative clauses.
I have never had a conlang with nouns as a closed class. I have some where verbs are.

The pseudo example has four words.

[use] [tool] [it is a hammer]
'I use a tool that is a hammer'
=> 'I use a hammer tool'
=> 'I use a hammer.'

Alternative B) Light verbs are fused to coverbs (some Australian and some Greenlandic ideas)

There are very productive means of deriving verbs from (specific) nouns. Nearly all verbs are like that. The light verbs - or derivational affixes - can sometimes be used without the nominal stem in analogical context or as elision.

to hammer-have
to hammer-use
to hammer-be


Probably the two could be somewhat combined.
Possession suffixes and verb derivation 'to have N' could be identical.
'my hammer' = 'I have a hammer'
'tool [that is my hammer]' = 'tool [that I hammer-have]'
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

NP syntax

[*demonstrative][generic noun][*stative word(s)][*genitive attribute NP]

*optional

dlo' hápuusi kohíwa zii
PERSON neighbor rich my
'my rich neighbor'

Stative clauses
It is also possible to interpret hápuusi and kohíwa above as participle-like relative clauses: 'the person that liver nearby and is rich'. Stative words (the class that I have been calling specific nouns) can work both as modifiers of generic nouns and as predicates.

The word order is:
[predicate][arguments]

hápuusik dlo'
'the person lives nearby'

kohíwak dlo' hápuusi zii
'my neighbor is rich'

Pnnaa, tzlleet dsooku.
pnn-aa, tzllee-t dsooku
SG1-TOP, beloved-PROX sg2
'I love you.'


The suffixes of predicates are:
-t 'PROXIMATE, the subject is present in the speech context, also first and second persons'
-k 'DISTAL, the subject is not present in the speech context'
-p 'PROTAGONIST, the agent is the protagonist of the discourse, mainly used in narrative genre'
-dl 'IMPERSONAL, the agent is not mentioned'
-' 'IMPERATIVE'
Last edited by Omzinesý on 22 Feb 2022 11:55, edited 1 time in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Some generic nouns / nominal classifiers / classificatory nominalizers (whatever they are)

dlo' (person)
suuk (liquid)
mit (a small thing)
kaat (food, dish)
net (fish)
le' (animal, mammal)
pah (text)
Last edited by Omzinesý on 30 Aug 2022 14:43, edited 2 times in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 22 Feb 2022 12:18, edited 1 time in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Case

Part of nouns have two cases: Nominative (or rather a direct case) and Locative.

a) Most nouns form Locative with suffix: -we.
b) Some nouns, which usually appear in Locative, form Locative by shortening the last vowel.
c) Words referring to persons do not form Locative.

het-wolaat 'house' (heet 'building' wolaat 'dwelling')
het-wolat 'in the house'

modiid 'beautiful, beauty'
ma modid 'is beautiful', lit. 'is in beauty'
Last edited by Omzinesý on 22 Feb 2022 12:18, edited 2 times in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Acipencer
sinic
sinic
Posts: 327
Joined: 27 Jun 2021 08:39
Location: Somewhere

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Acipencer »

How do nouns referring to people express location (e.g. 'in the man')?, or does the Locative case function more like a prepositional case?
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Acipencer wrote: 19 Feb 2022 02:17 How do nouns referring to people express location (e.g. 'in the man')?, or does the Locative case function more like a prepositional case?
You can say 'in the man's body', 'at the man's home', 'in the man's location' etc.

Locative expresses location and some adjectival prediction 'be in happiness'.

Still changed
Last edited by Omzinesý on 22 Feb 2022 12:19, edited 1 time in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

A new attempt for the verb template

-1[person agreement], 0[root], 1[tense] 2[mood 1], 3[mood 2]

Mood 1 expresses speech acts:
- Indicative (assertation, shares information)
- Exclamative (states information known by everybody or visible to everybody in order to start a discourse)
- Interrogative (asks about nformation)
- Imperative (command)
- Optative (request)

Mood 2 expresses codes epistemic categories

My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Dleesoop still screams for merging word class boundaries.
Apparently, I just have to do another lang for Chinese syntax.

Words used
Statives
hápuusi 'live nearby'
kohíwa '(be) rich'
Nouns
dlo' 'person'

Word classes

Statives
Statives is the only open word class and all complex NPs and VPs are derived from them.


Statives are used as static predicates
Dlo' hápuusi
person live.nearby
'The person lives nearby. ~ The person is a neighbor.'

Nouns
Nouns are those I have been calling "Generic Nouns". They are a closed class with around 50 members (I'm planing such a number.)
All NPs must be headed by a noun. It kind of nominalizes the sative.

Dlo'-hápuusi kohíwa.
person-live.nearby rich
'The neighbor is rich.'

Dlo'-kohíwa hápuusi.
person-rich neighbor
'The rich person is a neighbor.'

Nouns can also be used alone if they don't have to be that specific.

Dlo' kohíwa.
person rich
'The person is rich.'

But nouns cannot be used a predicates. There is no copula verb to allow that.

# Dlo'-kohíwa dlo'.
# person-rich person
# 'The rich one is a person.'

Verbs

Verbs are always derived from statives, though many verb roots are hardly ever used as statives in practice. Verbs cannot be derived from nouns.
Verbs are formed by adding tense prefixes.

Dlo' ohápuusi.
dlo' o-hapuusi
person PRS-neighbor
'The person [is being at home next door].'
More idiomatic English: 'The neighbor is at home.'

There are other "verby" affixes that can also appear with stative predicates.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 01 Apr 2022 06:15, edited 2 times in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Testing again Ossicone's Cat story

Le'-nawe zee net
animal-cat and fish
'The Cat and the Fish.'

Poo le'-nawe.
Exist animal-cat
'There was a cat.'


Le' kiti noomii
animal be.small be.white
'She was small and white.'

Atárima, koowonoon
a-tárima, koowo-noon
PST.SS-wake_up, be.hungry-very
'When she woke up she was very hungry!'

So she went looking for some food.
She looked behind the tree and found an acorn.
But cats don't eat acorns!
She looked under the rock and found a bug.
But cats don't eat bugs!
She looked in the house and saw something very interesting on the table.
It was a fish! And she loved to eat fish!
So she jumped on to the table and grabbed the fish.
Uh oh! A person saw her take the fish.
The little cat jump out the window and hid in the field.
She happily ate the fish.
But now she was very sleepy.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Verbs have suffixes. All of them can realize as zero, however.

0 root
1 tense/passive {perfect, prospective, passive perfect, passive prospective}
2 mood {assumed/inferred, reported, non-factual, counterfactual, certain}
3 {progressive}
4 person
5 {volitional, nonvolitional, resultative, irresultative, negative volitional, negative nonvolitional, negative resultative, negative irresultative}
6 {imperative, interrogative}
Last edited by Omzinesý on 17 Apr 2022 00:36, edited 1 time in total.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Dleesoop

Post by eldin raigmore »

Omzinesý wrote: 01 Apr 2022 06:18 Verbs have suffixes. All of them can realize as zero, however.

0 root
1 tense/passive {perfect, prospective, passive perfect, passive prospective}
2 mood {assumed/inferred, reported, non-factual, counterfactual, certain}
3 {progressive}
4 person
5 {volitional, nonvolitional, resultative, irresultative, negative volitional, negative nonvolitional, negative resultative, negative irresultative}
6 {imperative, interrogative}
Person of which participant?
In most* languages bivalent verbs agree with the persons of both participants, E.g. agent and patient, or, subject and primary object.
*[citation needed, but lost :’-( ]

….

How much of this applies to non-finite forms of the verb, like infinitives or participles or gerunds or supines?
User avatar
Omzinesý
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4079
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 08:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Dleesoop

Post by Omzinesý »

Very good questions. We are approaching what is interesting in (this stage of) Dleesoop.

Instead of saying "can realize as zero", I should probably have said "are optional". So, they are not person agreement but rather pronominal suffixes that are used when needed.

Nouns don't have (core) cases, but pronouns do, just as in English.
Dleesoop is topic-prominent instead of subject-prominent. Those suffixes are not used to code the role of the topic, usually. (I don't know about first and second person topics.) Because the topic is usually an agent or a patient, only one is needed as a pronoun.

Dlo'-tahaat, napuut-a'
PERSON-female, love-him/her/them
'The woman loves him/her/them.'

Dlo'-tahaat, napuut-po
PERSON-female, love-he/she/they
'The woman is loved by him/her/them.'

But I think two pronominal suffixes can appear in some instances.

(Non)finiteness is a good notion for Dleesoop to clarify the continuum between the nouns and the verbs. But there are no such as infinitives, converbs, or participles.
"Finite" clauses are just juxtaposed to form bigger entities that, I think, can be called sentences. The backgrounded clauses often have a non-zero morpheme in the tense slot. All clauses can have the maximal number of suffixes, though it is rare.
Complex nouns, that is all nouns but around 20 generic nouns, are formed by joining a generic noun and a verb together. The generic nouns can be interpreted as a classifying nominalizer. But even those clauses/nouns are nominal only externally. They can have all the verbal suffixes, though they lack argument constituents, I think.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Post Reply