Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

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ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Continued from viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5853

Opening of previous thread:

The main goal here besides seeing others figuring out the puzzle is how they do so: I want to see the multiple ways a single word can possibly change when given enough time, as it might give me interesting new insights into historical linguistics and the malleability of sounds. So hopefully this'll be as interesting to the challengee as it'll be to the challenger. It's not going to be anything too complex for now (at least I don't think so), so without further ado:

Current challenge:

1 /n͡dáfísḭ̂/
/m͡bét͡sḭ̂/

2 /n͡dáɸūsḭ̀/
/m͡bét͡sḭ̂/

3 /n͡dá̤ēɕì/
/m͡bét͡ɕì/

4 /oˈɾ̃at͡sə̰/
/ˈmaʈ͡ʂə̰/

5 /oˈɾat͡s'ə/
/ˈmɛʈ͡ʂ'ə/

6 /aˈnat͡s'i/
/ˈmjaʈ͡ʂ'i/

7 /aˈnwac'i/
/ˈmjaʈ͡ʂ'ɨ/

8 /oˈnɔ:t͡ɕḭ:/
/ˈmɨ:kʰɨ̰:/

9 /ˈnaɕɕigɨ/
/ˈmi:d͡ʑigɨ/

10 /ˈnɛʑigu/
/ˈme:ʑigu/

11 /ˈnɛsɪk/
/ˈme:ðɪk/

12 /ɔˈdɔn͡zɪk/
/ˈbʌn̪͡d̪ɪk/

13 /uˈdõx/
/ˈɓãx/

14 /ˈodãʃ/
/ˈpɪ̃t'/

15 /ˈhodɛ̃:ʃ/
/ˈɸẽtk/

16 /ˈɸudo:ʃ/
/ˈɸiʃ:/

17 /ˈɸudboʃ/
/ˈpit͡ʃ/

18 /ˈudvosik/
/ˈbiʒ:ik/

19 /ˈudu:ʃic/
/ˈbisac/

20 /ˈuðo:ʒiʃ/
/ˈðiʃiʃ/

21 /ˈulo:ziç/
/ˈd̼isiç/

22 /ˈiluzi:/
/ˈwei̯si:/

23 /ˈʏlrɪk/
/ˈwizɪk/
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

My verdict on Shimobaatar's most recent attempt:


1 [ⁿdáfísḭ̂] - [ᵐbét͡sḭ̂]
2 [ⁿdáɸūsḭ̀] - [ᵐbét͡sḭ̂]
3 [ⁿdá̤ēɕì] - [ᵐbét͡ɕì]
1-3 [ⁿdáɸsḭ̀] - [ᵐbét͡sḭ̂]
Fully correct.

4 [oˈɾ̃at͡sə̰] - [ˈmaʈ͡ʂə̰]
5 [oˈɾat͡sʼə] - [ˈmɛʈ͡ʂʼə]
6 [aˈnat͡sʼi] - [ˈmjaʈ͡ʂʼi]
7 [aˈnwacʼi] - [ˈmjaʈ͡ʂʼɨ]
8 [oˈnɔːt͡ɕḭː] - [ˈmɨːkʰɨ̰ː]
4-8 [oˈɾ̃ɔt͡sʼi] - [ˈmɛkʼɨ]
First word: 2 consonants and 1 vowel incorrect.
Second word: 2 consonants and 1 vowel incorrect.

9 [ˈnaɕɕigɨ] - [ˈmiːd͡ʑigɨ]
10 [ˈnɛʑigu] - [ˈmeːʑigu]
11 [ˈnɛsɪk] - [ˈmeːðɪk]
9-11 [ˈnassik] - [ˈmeːd͡zik]
First word: Fully correct.
Second word: 1 consonant incorrect, no contrastive vowel length was in this protoform.

12 [ɔˈdɔⁿzɪk] - [ˈbʌⁿd̪ɪk]
13 [uˈdõx] - [ˈɓãx]
14 [ˈodãʃ] - [ˈpɪ̃tʼ]
15 [ˈhodɛ̃ːʃ] - [ˈɸẽtk]
12-15 [ˈodɔnsk] - [ˈbʌn̪t̪k]
First word: 1 missing vowel, 1 incorrect vowel
Second word: 1 missing vowel, 1 incorrect vowel
No independent nasals were in this protoform for these words.

16 [ˈɸudoːʃ] - [ˈɸiʃː]
17 [ˈɸudboʃ] - [ˈpit͡ʃ]
18 [ˈudvosik] - [ˈbiʒːik]
16-18 [ˈɸudwosk] - [ˈbit͡ʃk]

19 [ˈuduːʃic] - [ˈbisac]
20 [ˈuðoːʒiʃ] - [ˈðiʃiʃ]
21 [ˈuloːziç] - [ˈd̼isiç]

19-21 [ˈudoːzic] - [ˈbisɪc]
16-18 and 19-21 are not the correct split of 16-21.

22 [ˈiluziː] - [ˈwei̯siː]
23 [ˈʏlrɪk] - [ˈwizɪk]
22-23 [ˈyluzik] - [ˈwei̯sɪk]
First word: Fully correct
Second word: 2 incorrect vowels.

1-3 [ⁿdáɸsḭ̀] - [ᵐbét͡sḭ̂]
4-8 [oˈɾ̃ɔt͡sʼi] - [ˈmɛkʼɨ]

1-8 [oˈⁿdawt͡sʼi] - [ˈᵐbekʼɪ]
1-8 is not a correct grouping.

9-11 [ˈnassik] - [ˈmeːd͡zik]
12-15 [ˈodɔnsk] - [ˈbʌn̪t̪k]

9-15 [ˈoⁿdɔⁿsik] - [ˈᵐbeⁿd̪ik]
No prenasalization is present in these protoforms.

16-18 [ˈɸudwosk] - [ˈbit͡ʃk]
19-21 [ˈudoːzic] - [ˈbisɪc]
22-23 [ˈyluzik] - [ˈwei̯sɪk]

16-23 [ˈɸudwozik] - [ˈbei̯t͡ʃɪk]
First word: 2 incorrect consonants, 1 incorrect vowel.
Second word: 1 incorrect consonant, 2 incorrect vowels.

1-8 [oˈⁿdawt͡sʼi] - [ˈᵐbekʼɪ]
9-15 [ˈoⁿdɔⁿsik] - [ˈᵐbeⁿd̪ik]
16-23 [ˈɸudwozik] - [ˈbei̯t͡ʃɪk]
1-23 [ˈɸodɔ̃t͡sʼik] - [ˈbẽt̪ʼɪk]
First word: 2 incorrect consonants, 1 missing consonant
Second word: 2 incorrect consonants, 1 incorrect vowel
No ejectives existed in the original protoforms.
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qwed117
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by qwed117 »

I started making an excel spreadsheet with the forms, but honestly in this case it is not exactly a useful use of my time, since this has been dead for like five months.

My guess right now is something like *hu'ⁿdɔsiku *'mɛ:ciku.

I know that there's sort of been a drop in activity in this kind of thread. I'd recommend that we go back to using maps, and opt for clearer treeings with clear innovatory characteristics.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Dang it, the file used to create this challenge has been deleted somehow.

Anyone up to making a new challenge?
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qwed117
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by qwed117 »

I can make a new one. In fact I'm doing that right now :)
Update:

Image
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by shimobaatar »

qwed117 wrote: 07 Sep 2022 04:22 I'd recommend that we go back to using maps,
What if someone "wins" and gets to run the next round, but doesn't have the ability to create a map?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by qwed117 »

shimobaatar wrote: 18 Nov 2022 13:12
qwed117 wrote: 07 Sep 2022 04:22 I'd recommend that we go back to using maps,
What if someone "wins" and gets to run the next round, but doesn't have the ability to create a map?
Maps can be made with free software! I use GIMP and Inkscape generally, but if it's not possible to make a map, then we just don't make a map that round. In general, I think engagement is higher with maps because solvers can then map out their ideas more easily. Maps also allow for a more spatially interesting orientation. The main drawback, I think is that it's harder to do multiple words, so the sound changes, and the guesses of it, are more adhoc. But I also think having multiple words has slowed down the game quite a bit, especially when you're reconstructing four words, and not one.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

My initial guess is something like *mnajdug, with the following sound changes:

- g > ŋ > ∅, m with vowel nasalization
- g > ɣ > w, j > ∅, vowel changes
- g > k
- g > x > f
- g > g͡ʟ > ˀl in /nɜˈjɔ̯l/ if creaky voice was intended, there seems to be a typo in that word

- jd > ɟ
- jd > jl > j, ʎ, ɬ, ll
- jd > jz, ðð > js, θθ
- jd > ʒ > ʃ > χ
- jd > jn > ɲ

The form with a medial /m/ probably went through a sequence like this:
mnajdug > ɲəjduɣ > j̃əjnuə̯ > ẽjnwa > ejma > imʲa
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qwed117
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by qwed117 »

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 19 Nov 2022 22:20 - g > g͡ʟ > ˀl in /nɜˈjɔ̯l/ if creaky voice was intended, there seems to be a typo in that word
Good catch, it should just be [nɜˈjɔl], with no diacritic on [ɔ]. I'd recommend starting by finding groupings, rather than a raw guess to begin
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

mæ:ˈɟəu̯k
mʕaɟˈɟu
< ma:ɟˈɟug

ˈmʏθθə
ˈmesɔ̃m
< ˈmes̪s̪om

majˈlu
ˈmɛ:le
ˈneɬyf
ˈmɛχɛ
< ˈmajɬuh

ʎʎũ
jo
< ʎʎõ

ˈmia:
ˈmiɛ
< ˈmija

ˈmɛ:ʝaw
mɛɥ
nɜˈjɔl
iˈjax
< ˈmɛjal

ma:ɟˈɟug
ˈmes̪s̪om
ˈmajɬuh
ʎʎõ
< ma:jSug?
S could be any sibilant or lateral voiceless fricative or affricate.

ˈmija
ˈmɛjal
< ˈmejal

ma:jSug
ˈmejal
< ˈma:jSur? (r > g͡ʟ > g)

That leaves nɔlˈlon, iˈmʲa and ɲæ˩ɲæu˩˥.
For nɔlˈlon:
ˈma:jSur > ˈmjɔjɬur > ˈnɔllun > nɔlˈlon
For iˈmʲa:
ˈma:jSur > majˈzu: > məjˈru: > əjˈnwa > iˈmʲa
For ɲæ˩ɲæu˩˥:
ˈma:jSur > me̯ajˈzu: > mjajˈru: > mjæjˈnæu̯ > ɲæ˩ɲæu˩˥

Initial guess: ˈma:jSur, where S could be any sibilant or lateral voiceless fricative or affricate.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by shimobaatar »

I wasn't sure how to label the hypothetical subgroups, so I didn't. Anyway, here's my initial attempt:
Spoiler:
[mæːˈɟəʊk]
[mʕaɟˈɟu]
< [maɟˈɟuk]

[ˈmi.aː]
[ˈmi.ɛ]
< [ˈmi.æː]

[ˈmʏθθə]
[ˈmesɔ̃m]
< [ˈmɪθθɔm]

[majˈlu]
[ʎʎũ]
< [məʎˈʎu]

[ˈneɬyf]
[ˈmɛːʝaw]
< [ˈmʲɛllev]

[iˈmʲa]
[jo]
[mɛɥ]
< [mʲæw]

[ˈmɛːle]
[ˈmɛχɛ]
< [ˈmɛɫɫe]

[nɜˈjɔl]
[nɔlˈlon]
< [nəlˈlɔn]

[iˈjax]
[ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥]
< [ɲeˈjaxʷ]


[maɟˈɟuk]
[məʎˈʎu]
< [maʎˈʎuk]

[ˈmɪθθɔm]
[ˈmi.æː]
[ˈmʲɛllev]
[mʲæw]
[ˈmɛɫɫe]
< [ˈmɛllem]

[nəlˈlɔn]
[ɲeˈjaxʷ]
< [ɲelˈlaŋʷ]



[maʎˈʎuk]
[ˈmɛllem]
[ɲelˈlaŋʷ]
< [mɛlˈleŋʷ]
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VaptuantaDoi
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by VaptuantaDoi »

My final proto-form is
Spoiler:
*meˈʎom
Here's my groupings:
Spoiler:
ˈmiaː
ˈmiɛ
ˈmɛχɛ
ˈmɛːʝaw
ˈmɛːle
< *ˈmɛːʎaː

mæːˈɟəʊk
mʕaɟˈɟu
<*maɟˈɟuk

ˈmʏθθə
ˈmesɔ̃m
majˈlu
< *møθom

ʎʎũ
ˈneɬyf
< *ˈneʎum

iˈmʲa
jo
mɛɥ
< *mjau̯

nɜˈjɔl
ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥
nɔlˈlɔn
< *nəʎˈʎɔn

*ˈmɛːʎaː
*maɟˈɟuk
*møθom
<< **mɛʎˈʎoŋ

*ˈneʎum
*mjau̯
*nəʎˈʎɔn
<< **neˈʎom

**mɛʎˈʎoŋ
**neˈʎom
<<< ***meˈʎom
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by qwed117 »

For now I'm only gonna judge the primary groupings, because if the (admittedly messy) primary groupings aren't correct, then how would you get the upper level groups correct :)
ɶʙ ɞʛ:
Spoiler:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 26 Nov 2022 19:50 mæ:ˈɟəu̯k
mʕaɟˈɟu
< ma:ɟˈɟug
Areal grouping sadly :(

ˈmʏθθə
ˈmesɔ̃m
< ˈmes̪s̪om
On the right track, but the smallest clade that contains these two languages has a couple more languages in it

majˈlu
ˈmɛ:le
ˈneɬyf
ˈmɛχɛ
< ˈmajɬuh
Not quite a clade :/


ʎʎũ
jo
< ʎʎõ
Not a clade :(

ˈmia:
ˈmiɛ
< ˈmija
On the right track, but the smallest clade that contains these two languages has a couple more languages in it

ˈmɛ:ʝaw
mɛɥ
nɜˈjɔl
iˈjax
< ˈmɛjal
Not quite a clade :(
shimobaatar:
Spoiler:
shimobaatar wrote: 26 Nov 2022 21:08 I wasn't sure how to label the hypothetical subgroups, so I didn't. Anyway, here's my initial attempt:
All fair; when we get primary groupings down I'll upload the map with the clades circled with a particular color, which is what we'll use to name the groupings :)

[mæːˈɟəʊk]
[mʕaɟˈɟu]
< [maɟˈɟuk]
Areal grouping sadly :(

[ˈmi.aː]
[ˈmi.ɛ]
< [ˈmi.æː]

On the right track, but the smallest clade that contains these two languages has a couple more languages in it

[ˈmʏθθə]
[ˈmesɔ̃m]
< [ˈmɪθθɔm]
On the right track, but the smallest clade that contains these two languages has a couple more languages in it

[majˈlu]
[ʎʎũ]
< [məʎˈʎu]
On the right track, but the smallest clade that contains these two languages has another language in it

[ˈneɬyf]
[ˈmɛːʝaw]
< [ˈmʲɛllev]
Not a clade :(

[iˈmʲa]
[jo]
[mɛɥ]
< [mʲæw]
Not quite a clade :/

[ˈmɛːle]
[ˈmɛχɛ]
< [ˈmɛɫɫe]
Not a clade :(

[nɜˈjɔl]
[nɔlˈlon]
< [nəlˈlɔn]
On the right track, but the smallest clade that contains these two languages has another language in it

[iˈjax]
[ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥]
< [ɲeˈjaxʷ]
Not a clade :(
VaptuantaDoi:
Spoiler:
VaptuantaDoi wrote: 26 Nov 2022 22:52 Here's my groupings:

ˈmiaː
ˈmiɛ
ˈmɛχɛ
ˈmɛːʝaw
ˈmɛːle
< *ˈmɛːʎaː

Not quite a clade :/

mæːˈɟəʊk
mʕaɟˈɟu
<*maɟˈɟuk
Areal grouping sadly :(

ˈmʏθθə
ˈmesɔ̃m
majˈlu
< *møθom
Not quite a clade :/

ʎʎũ
ˈneɬyf
< *ˈneʎum
Areal grouping sadly :(

iˈmʲa
jo
mɛɥ
< *mjau̯
Not quite a clade :/

nɜˈjɔl
ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥
nɔlˈlɔn
< *nəʎˈʎɔn
The clade is correct, but the reconstruction isn't right. (Think about what
ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥ suggests)
As a side note, keep in mind that the lighter colored areas are mountains where movement is near impossible. :)

If you want I can drop the protolanguage's inventory
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by shimobaatar »

qwed117 wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:29
shimobaatar wrote: 26 Nov 2022 21:08 I wasn't sure how to label the hypothetical subgroups, so I didn't. Anyway, here's my initial attempt:
All fair; when we get primary groupings down I'll upload the map with the clades circled with a particular color, which is what we'll use to name the groupings :)
Looking forward to it!
qwed117 wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:29 Not a clade :(
qwed117 wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:29 Not quite a clade :/
Is there a meaningful difference here between "not a clade" and "not quite a clade"? If so, might I ask what the difference is?
qwed117 wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:29 As a side note, keep in mind that the lighter colored areas are mountains where movement is near impossible. :)
Ah, good to know, especially the last part!
qwed117 wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:29 If you want I can drop the protolanguage's inventory
I wouldn't object. [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by qwed117 »

shimobaatar wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:48 Looking forward to it!
qwed117 wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:29 Not a clade :(
qwed117 wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:29 Not quite a clade :/
Is there a meaningful difference here between "not a clade" and "not quite a clade"? If so, might I ask what the difference is?
There's a slight difference. If I said "not a clade" it means that none of the languages are unified into a single primary clade. If I wrote "not quite a clade", it means that there is two or more languages that might form one clade together, but not with the other languages
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by shimobaatar »

qwed117 wrote: 30 Nov 2022 10:51
shimobaatar wrote: 26 Nov 2022 23:48 Is there a meaningful difference here between "not a clade" and "not quite a clade"? If so, might I ask what the difference is?
There's a slight difference. If I said "not a clade" it means that none of the languages are unified into a single primary clade. If I wrote "not quite a clade", it means that there is two or more languages that might form one clade together, but not with the other languages
Good to know!

Second attempt:
Spoiler:
[ˈmi.aː]
[ˈmi.ɛ]
[ˈmɛχɛ]
[ˈmɛːʝaw]
[mɛɥ]
< [ˈmɛxɛw]

[ˈmʏθθə]
[ˈmesɔ̃m]
[ˈneɬyf]
[ˈmɛːle]
< [ˈmeɬøm]

[majˈlu]
[ʎʎũ]
[mʕaɟˈɟu]
< [məʎˈʎu]

[nɜˈjɔl]
[nɔlˈlon]
[ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥]
< [ɲəlˈlɔn]

[iˈmʲa]
[jo]
< [mʲo]

[mæːˈɟəʊk]

[iˈjax]


[ˈmɛxɛw]
[ˈmeɬøm]
[mʲo]
< [ˈmeɬɛm]

[məʎˈʎu]
[mæːˈɟəʊk]
< [mæʎˈʎuk]

[ɲəlˈlɔn]
[iˈjax]
< [ɲilˈlɒŋ̊]



[ˈmeɬɛm]
[mæʎˈʎuk]
[ɲilˈlɒŋ̊]
< [melˈlõkʷ]
ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Posts: 729
Joined: 02 Aug 2019 18:47

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Second guess:

Eastern group:
ˈmi.a:
ˈmi.ɛ
ˈmɛχɛ
iˈjax
nɜˈjɔl
ɲæ˩ɲæʊ̯˩˥
ˈmɛ:ʝaw
mɛɥ
< mɛjal

ʎʎũ
iˈmʲa
jo
< ʎmo

mæ:ˈɟəu̯k
mʕaɟˈɟu
ˈmʏθθə
ˈmesɔ̃m
< mæ:ɟ̊ɟ̊ug

ˈmɛ:le
ˈneɬyf
majˈlu
< ˈmajɬɵh


ˈmajɬɵh
mæ:ɟ̊ɟ̊ug
< majɬʊɣ

mɛjal < majl < majlʊ
ʎmo < mʎʊɣ < milʊɣ


majlʊ
milʊɣ
< majlʊɣ
The ancestor of *nɔlˈlon split off from this branch early with a ɣ > ŋ change, while later on it followed changes compatible with the ancestor of *nɜˈjɔl, presumably areal influence. Full evolution path:
*majlʊɣ > majlʊŋ > malloŋ (probable form around first contact with *mɛjal group) > nallon > nɔlˈlon

Protoform: *majɬʊɣ, *ʊ was probably a reduced vowel distinct from *u that could take on a variety of allophones /ʊ ~ u ~ o ~ ɯ ~ ə ~ ɵ/ depending on dialect at some point early in this scenario. In the west it tended to *u, in the south-central to *o, and in the northeast it was often deleted.
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qwed117
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Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by qwed117 »

shimobaatar:
shimobaatar wrote: 30 Nov 2022 18:40
Second attempt:
Spoiler:
[ˈmi.aː]
[ˈmi.ɛ]
[ˈmɛχɛ]
[ˈmɛːʝaw]
[mɛɥ]
< [ˈmɛxɛw]

Not quite a clade :/. This clade's a bit of a tough one, quite honestly.
[ˈmʏθθə]
[ˈmesɔ̃m]
[ˈneɬyf]
[ˈmɛːle]
< [ˈmeɬøm]

Almost there; one member is incorrect, and another is missing
[majˈlu]
[ʎʎũ]
[mʕaɟˈɟu]
< [məʎˈʎu]
final stress is correct, but there's a bit missing from the reconstruction. Consider what the presence of pharyngealization in [mʕaɟˈɟu] might suggest
[nɜˈjɔl]
[nɔlˈlon]
[ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥]
< [ɲəlˈlɔn]
The clade is correct, but the reconstruction isn't right. (Think about what
ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥ suggests)

[iˈmʲa]
[jo]
< [mʲo]
Not a clade

[mæːˈɟəʊk]

[iˈjax]
Only one of the "languages" forms a primary clade of itself (as in that it is the 'outgroup') but it's neither of these two, which are grouped with some other languages in their region. Keep in mind the geography!
ɶʙ ɞʛ:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 01 Dec 2022 21:59 Second guess:
Spoiler:

Eastern group:
ˈmi.a:
ˈmi.ɛ
ˈmɛχɛ
iˈjax
nɜˈjɔl
ɲæ˩ɲæʊ̯˩˥
ˈmɛ:ʝaw
mɛɥ
< mɛjal
This is pretty close to a second or third level grouping, but not *quite*. I'd recommend focusing on the words that are geographically close to each other, rather than just phonologically close

ʎʎũ
iˈmʲa
jo
< ʎmo
Not quite a clade; keep in mind that the geography of the map is important; the bright yellow-green areas are impassable mountain chains

mæ:ˈɟəu̯k
mʕaɟˈɟu
ˈmʏθθə
ˈmesɔ̃m
< mæ:ɟ̊ɟ̊ug
Not quite a clade. The similarity between [mæ:ˈɟəu̯k] and [mʕaɟˈɟu] is convergence.

ˈmɛ:le
ˈneɬyf
majˈlu
< ˈmajɬɵh
Not a clade

Since I see that we're starting to head closer to final reconstructions, the proto-inventory, for the entire family is as follows:
/m n ŋ/
/p t k b d g ʔ/
/s ɬ h/ + /ʲ/
/i u/
/e/
/ɛ ɔ/
/æ/

Also personally, I'm pro-collaboration. I recommend it in fact. You should look at the comments that others get :)
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

New guess: *ˈmɛɬʲhɔɬ
Spoiler:
majˈlu
ʎʎũ
mʕaɟˈɟu
< ma:ʎˈɲu

nɜˈjɔl
nɔlˈlon
ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥
< nalˈɲɔl

ˈmʏθθə
ˈmesɔ̃m
ˈneɬyf
mæ:ˈɟəʊ̯k
ˈmɛ:le
< ˈmɛjɬux


ˈmi.a:
ˈmi.ɛ
ˈmɛχɛ
iˈjax
< ˈmjaxɛ


ˈmɛ:ʝaw
mɛɥ
iˈmʲa
jo
< ˈmjaw

ˈmjaxɛ
ˈmjaw
< ˈmjaxɛ

ma:ʎˈɲu
nalˈɲɔl
< ma:ʎˈŋɔl

ˈmjaxɛ
ˈmɛjɬux
< ˈmɛ:ɬux

ˈmɛ:ɬux
ma:ʎˈŋɔl
< ˈmɛɬʲhɔɬ
shimobaatar
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Posts: 10371
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Location: UTC-04:00

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge v2

Post by shimobaatar »

Third attempt:
Spoiler:
I've started by listing out everything that I know, or at least assume I know, so far based on the responses I've gotten to my past two guesses. This is mostly for my own benefit, but if you see that I've misinterpreted anything and you're feeling generous, I'd appreciate it if you could please let me know.

First attempt:
  • The resemblance between [mæːˈɟəʊk] and [mʕaɟˈɟu] is due to areal influence. I assume this means that these two are not part of the same first-level grouping at all, not just that these two alone don't constitute a first-level grouping.
  • [ˈmi.aː] and [ˈmi.ɛ] are part of the same first-level grouping, but that clade also contains "a couple more languages". I'm not sure if "a couple" is being used to mean literally "two" exactly or just "a few; several; not many, but more than one or two".
  • [ˈmʏθθə] and [ˈmesɔ̃m] are part of the same first-level grouping, but that clade also contains "a couple more languages".
  • [majˈlu] and [ʎʎũ] are part of the same first-level grouping, but that clade also contains "another language".
  • [ˈneɬyf] and [ˈmɛːʝaw] are not part of the same first-level grouping.
  • "Two or more" of [iˈmʲa], [jo], and [mɛɥ] "might form one clade together, but not with the other languages". I'm not sure if this means that two of these three "might" form a clade by themselves, or that two of these three "might" form a clade with the addition of some other languages.
  • [ˈmɛːle] and [ˈmɛχɛ] are not part of the same first-level grouping.
  • [nɜˈjɔl] and [nɔlˈlon] are part of the same first-level grouping, but that clade also contains "another language".
  • [iˈjax] and [ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥] are not part of the same first-level grouping.
Second attempt:
  • This is apparently "a bit of a tough one". "Two or more" of [ˈmi.aː], [ˈmɛχɛ], [ˈmɛːʝaw], [ˈmi.ɛ], and [mɛɥ] "might form one clade together, but not with the other languages". I'm not sure if this means that some of these "might" form a clade by themselves, or that some of these "might" form a clade with the addition of some other languages.
  • [ˈmʏθθə], [ˈmesɔ̃m], [ˈmɛːle], and [ˈneɬyf] would constitute a first-level grouping if one of the four were replaced by a different language.
  • [mʕaɟˈɟu], [majˈlu], and [ʎʎũ] apparently do constitute a first-level grouping. The most recent common ancestor of these three words had final stress, but also something else that's supposedly reflected as [ʕ] in the first language.
  • [nɜˈjɔl], [ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥], and [nɔlˈlon] apparently do constitute a first-level grouping. Something about the most recent common ancestor of these three words is supposedly reflected by something in the second language.
  • [iˈmʲa] and [jo] are not part of the same first-level grouping.
  • Only one language constitutes a first-level grouping by itself. This language is neither [mæːˈɟəʊk] nor [iˈjax], which should instead be "grouped with some other languages in their region".



[mʕaɟˈɟu]
[majˈlu]
[ʎʎũ]
< [mɑʎˈʎu]

Where does [ʕ] in the first language come from? Am I missing an entire segment, some kind of phonation or secondary articulation, or something else? Is it the quality of the unstressed vowel? I suppose that's what I'll assume this round.

[nɜˈjɔl]
[ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥]
[nɔlˈlon]
< [ɲaˈɲɔl]

What about [ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥] is supposed to suggest something missing from the reconstruction? Tone is probably the most obvious feature that sets it apart from the others, but it also has the two palatal nasals, two instances of [æ], and the diphthong or vowel sequence in the final syllable. I've been wondering almost since the beginning about the apparent correspondence between the final lateral in [nɜˈjɔl] and the final nasal in [nɔlˈlon], so for now, I'm going to guess that the final lateral may be the origin of [æʊ] in [ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥].

[mæːˈɟəʊk]
[ˈmʏθθə]
[ˈmesɔ̃m]
[ˈneɬyf]
< [ˈmeɕəw̃]

I'm pretty sure about keeping [ˈmʏθθə] and [ˈmesɔ̃m] together. [mæːˈɟəʊk] should apparently be grouped with some of the other languages in its region. Apart from [mʕaɟˈɟu], its closest neighbors appear to be [ˈmʏθθə] and [ˈmɛːle]. For this round, I'm going to try putting [mæːˈɟəʊk] with [ˈmʏθθə] and [ˈmesɔ̃m] because it doesn't seem too farfetched to assume a correspondence between a palatal stop and coronal fricatives.

Based on the response I got on my second guess, I'm assuming that either [ˈmɛːle] or [ˈneɬyf] belongs here as well, but I've really been going back and forth with myself on which one to include this round. [ˈmesɔ̃m] and [ˈneɬyf] are both "nasal + stressed [e] + single voiceless coronal fricative + rounded vowel + labial", but [ˈmɛːle] begins with [m] and its [ɛː] reminds me of the [æː] in [mæːˈɟəʊk]. Geographically, there also appears to be less distance between [ˈmɛːle] and [mæːˈɟəʊk] than between [ˈneɬyf] and [ˈmesɔ̃m].

Nevertheless, I think I'm going to try going with [ˈneɬyf] this time, if only because I'm unsure at the moment where else I'd put it without having two "isolates" at this stage or going against something else that I currently assume has been established, namely that it doesn't belong with [ˈmɛːʝaw]. I'm not too happy with what I've landed on for the hypothetical most recent common ancestor of these four words, but oh well.

[ˈmi.aː]
[ˈmɛχɛ]
[ˈmi.ɛ]
[iˈjax]
< [ˈmejax]

I'm pretty sure about keeping [ˈmi.aː] and [ˈmi.ɛ] together. [iˈjax] should apparently be grouped with some of the other languages in its region. Its closest neighbors appear to be [ˈmi.aː], [ˈmi.ɛ], [nɜˈjɔl], and [ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥]. [iˈjax] apparently doesn't belong in the same first-level grouping as [ɲæ˩ɲæʊ˩˥], so I'm very tentatively putting it with [ˈmi.aː] and [ˈmi.ɛ] this round. I'm including [ˈmɛχɛ] as well because it's spoken relatively nearby and has a dorsal fricative like [iˈjax], but initial stress and [m] like [ˈmi.aː] and [ˈmi.ɛ].

[ˈmɛːle]
[ˈmɛːʝaw]
[iˈmʲa]
[mɛɥ]
< [ˈmɛʎɛw]

In the first round, I put [iˈmʲa], [jo], and [mɛɥ] together, and based on the response I got, I assume that two of them actually belong in the same group. In the second round, I put [iˈmʲa] and [jo] together, which was not correct. For this round, I'm going to try putting [iˈmʲa] and [mɛɥ] together instead. I'm including [ˈmɛːʝaw] as well both because of phonetic similarities and because it's not spoken too far from [iˈmʲa]. I'm also putting [ˈmɛːle] here if only because I'm not sure where else to put it. There's a fair bit of distance between [ˈmɛːle] and [ˈmɛːʝaw] on the map, but I'm hoping it's not unreasonable to assume that it wouldn't be too difficult for people to move between those mountainous areas near where [ˈmɛːle] is spoken.

[jo]
< [jo]

Basically via the process of elimination, I'm going to assume for now that [jo] may be the one "isolate" at this level.


[mɑʎˈʎu]
[ˈmeɕəw̃]
< [mæʎˈʎũː]

All of these second-level groupings are based primarily on geography, honestly. I don't think I've gotten all the first-level groupings correct yet, so maybe there's no point to trying to reconstruct anything further back in time, but I suppose I'm doing it anyway.

[ɲaˈɲɔl]
[ˈmejax]
< [mʲæˈj̃aɫ]

[ˈmɛʎɛw]
[jo]
< [mɛˈʎew]



[mæʎˈʎũː]
[mʲæˈj̃aɫ]
[mɛˈʎew]
< [mæɬʲˈŋɛu]
qwed117 wrote: 04 Dec 2022 06:49 /m n ŋ/
/p t k b d g ʔ/
/s ɬ h/ + /ʲ/
Just to make sure, does this mean that any consonant can be palatalized or just that any fricative can be palatalized?
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