Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
- Arayaz
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Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
It has long been one of my goals to create a polysynthetic conlang. Still, despite my best efforts, I have never been able to pass five or six morphemes per word in a naturalistic language.
My first attempt at a polysynthetic language was Uniita. It was from back when I was much less talented than I am now - I don't think I'd even heard of sound changes at the time. I had just learned about Inuktitut, and was hoping to try it out. What I ended up doing was deleting all the spaces between words and calling it polysynthetic.
Since then, I've made two or three (depending on how you count it) languages that I'm comfortable calling at least kind of synthetic: Ṛikuḍa H'Aŋos, its descendant Aodyəi, and the yet-to-be-named isolate language I began to make for my D&D campaign that never ended up happening.
Ṛikuḍa H'Aŋos had about five maximum morphemes per verb. Nouns could in theory have infinite (all adjectives had prefixed forms that could attach to nouns), but in practice this would be pretty hard. Aodyəi was slightly more synthetic, since mandatory evidentials were introduced, but it's not much. The isolate was a lot better, even though it was the first of the three: I used a very extensive noun class system and inflected the verbs for it. Each verb had hundreds of thousands of possible forms, compared to the wimpy 3,888 forms of each verb in Aodyəi. I also played with the syntax to try to use as few words as possible (e.g. if there were two subjects connected by "and," each individual one could be negated on its own), and I had a lot more inflections than some languages, but I don't think I ever reached twelve morphemes per word.
I created this thread to hear about other polylangs (what I call polysynthetic languages, since "polysynthetic" is a pain to type, at least on my keyboard) and to try to learn from them.
Also, this is the most morphemes I could get on a verb in Aodyəi, my favorite of the three:
Gwaomya fazdiŋesubawɨ.
short.wide-iness-river-iness 1pla.2sge-inc-fut-flee-ded
I deduce you will begin to flee us in the short, wide river.
My first attempt at a polysynthetic language was Uniita. It was from back when I was much less talented than I am now - I don't think I'd even heard of sound changes at the time. I had just learned about Inuktitut, and was hoping to try it out. What I ended up doing was deleting all the spaces between words and calling it polysynthetic.
Since then, I've made two or three (depending on how you count it) languages that I'm comfortable calling at least kind of synthetic: Ṛikuḍa H'Aŋos, its descendant Aodyəi, and the yet-to-be-named isolate language I began to make for my D&D campaign that never ended up happening.
Ṛikuḍa H'Aŋos had about five maximum morphemes per verb. Nouns could in theory have infinite (all adjectives had prefixed forms that could attach to nouns), but in practice this would be pretty hard. Aodyəi was slightly more synthetic, since mandatory evidentials were introduced, but it's not much. The isolate was a lot better, even though it was the first of the three: I used a very extensive noun class system and inflected the verbs for it. Each verb had hundreds of thousands of possible forms, compared to the wimpy 3,888 forms of each verb in Aodyəi. I also played with the syntax to try to use as few words as possible (e.g. if there were two subjects connected by "and," each individual one could be negated on its own), and I had a lot more inflections than some languages, but I don't think I ever reached twelve morphemes per word.
I created this thread to hear about other polylangs (what I call polysynthetic languages, since "polysynthetic" is a pain to type, at least on my keyboard) and to try to learn from them.
Also, this is the most morphemes I could get on a verb in Aodyəi, my favorite of the three:
Gwaomya fazdiŋesubawɨ.
short.wide-iness-river-iness 1pla.2sge-inc-fut-flee-ded
I deduce you will begin to flee us in the short, wide river.
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- Man in Space
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
Yes, Kgáweq'.
Twin Aster megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
Have, no. But I'm working on one.
- Creyeditor
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
Polysynthetic as in having noun incorporation and affixes? Or having a lot of morphosyntactic categories expressed per "word"? Or as in having a lot of agglutinating affixes on a word? In either case yes, some sketches. In the last two cases: yes, and I might be working on one (polypersonal agreement, voice, aspect marked on verbs and definiteness, number, possessor, size marked on nouns). Might be below your cut-off point, idk.
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- Arayaz
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
My understanding of a "polysynthetic" language is that it has 12 or more morphemes per word.
Edit from far-future me: this is dumb, and I don't know where I got the idea.
Edit from far-future me: this is dumb, and I don't know where I got the idea.
Last edited by Arayaz on 26 Sep 2023 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
It's a vague but useful term. There's no hard cut-off like (the possibility of) having 12 morphemes (in the verb).
hīc sunt linguificēs. hēr bēoþ tungemakeras.
Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
For the "lols" I once tried to make a polysynthetic romlang. Didn't go too far with it, though.
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
That's not that far-fetched. Arguments have been made that spoken French is polysynthetic.
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- eldin raigmore
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
No, but I want to!
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
Alál is technically polysynthetic given the number of possible morphemes per word and the way in which its verbs are constructed (including polypersonal agreement), but most verbs tend to have only about 4-6 morphemes (root, agreement, aspect, voice/volition, maybe a derivational morpheme or two).
A more complex but realistically usable verb would look something like... mm... let's see if I can make this look vaguely pretty.
Ṭaıtḳâkattúaṭákamàḷaıxxìṭ·kmaakakkuûkurḳama.
ṭa<vı-tḳa-ŕkvr̀-ttúv-1vŕkv-mà<ḷaı>x>x-ìṭ-k-ma<aka-k<~ku>ú~kù>r̀-ḳ-ḳ-a
remember<3-s2-sAll-o6-oAll-egg<scrambled>>-NEG-purpose-eat<want-PST.EVID<~EXC>~EXT>-ITER-DSTR-V.A
Long ago, both of them apparently used to go about wanting to eat a whole half-dozen scrambled eggs one after another, in order to avoid remembering.
But that's not going to show up. Much.
A more complex but realistically usable verb would look something like... mm... let's see if I can make this look vaguely pretty.
Ṭaıtḳâkattúaṭákamàḷaıxxìṭ·kmaakakkuûkurḳama.
ṭa<vı-tḳa-ŕkvr̀-ttúv-1vŕkv-mà<ḷaı>x>x-ìṭ-k-ma<aka-k<~ku>ú~kù>r̀-ḳ-ḳ-a
remember<3-s2-sAll-o6-oAll-egg<scrambled>>-NEG-purpose-eat<want-PST.EVID<~EXC>~EXT>-ITER-DSTR-V.A
Long ago, both of them apparently used to go about wanting to eat a whole half-dozen scrambled eggs one after another, in order to avoid remembering.
But that's not going to show up. Much.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
Yeah that was my motivation, a future French dialect that became completely agglutinating and polysynthetic.
Feel free to take the idea
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
'Polysynthesis' is a vague typological term. The languages of the Swamp Continent generally come close in various ways. Hlu has extensive verbal morphology, but doesn't really have polypersonal agreement, obligatorily marking only subject and benefactor:
noechuehmaehlaeboqwiyayalekhi
[nɤȶʰɯm̥æɬæɓoʔwijɔjɔlekʰi]
2-PST-NEG-1.BEN-ABIL-CAUS-scatter-AND-COND
Had you not dispersed [them] for our benefit...
The one language known to have marking of both subject and object on the verb, Zot, is one of the least typically polysynthetic: person marking is essentially derivational, with e.g. direct nominalization of person-marked forms being permitted, and frequently suppletive, and there are about thirty verbs, generally with vague and abstract meanings. For example:
nyuj
[nju˧˩]
you hit me
zos
[ʐo˧˥]
I hit you
yvpxp
[jɵ˩pæ˩]
we hit her
zomqf
[ʐo˥mɒ˧˥]
I who hit you
wxn'yvt
[wæ̃˥jɵ˥]
caning
wxn'yvzof
[wæ̃˥jɵ˧ʐo˦˥]
I cane you
wxn'yvyisinmqf
[wæ̃˥jɵ˧ji˥ɕĩ˥mɒ˥]
he who canes them
noechuehmaehlaeboqwiyayalekhi
[nɤȶʰɯm̥æɬæɓoʔwijɔjɔlekʰi]
2-PST-NEG-1.BEN-ABIL-CAUS-scatter-AND-COND
Had you not dispersed [them] for our benefit...
The one language known to have marking of both subject and object on the verb, Zot, is one of the least typically polysynthetic: person marking is essentially derivational, with e.g. direct nominalization of person-marked forms being permitted, and frequently suppletive, and there are about thirty verbs, generally with vague and abstract meanings. For example:
nyuj
[nju˧˩]
you hit me
zos
[ʐo˧˥]
I hit you
yvpxp
[jɵ˩pæ˩]
we hit her
zomqf
[ʐo˥mɒ˧˥]
I who hit you
wxn'yvt
[wæ̃˥jɵ˥]
caning
wxn'yvzof
[wæ̃˥jɵ˧ʐo˦˥]
I cane you
wxn'yvyisinmqf
[wæ̃˥jɵ˧ji˥ɕĩ˥mɒ˥]
he who canes them
not entirely invalid - cf. Coptic and Kiranti
Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
Where did you find this definition? It's not one I'm aware of.
As far as I know there isn't a consensus on a definition for polysynthesis. There's Baker's idea that a polysynthetic language is one that fits a very particular criterion involving agreement marking between phrasal heads and arguments, but that one's pretty tailor-made for generative grammar theory. There are folks that say there's no good definition for "polysynthetic" because the term is too vague to really be useful. Some folks connect polysynthesis to particular operations like productive noun-incorporation, and some do make vague handwaves about polysynthesis meaning, like, super synthetic. But I haven't heard the number 12 given as like...a threshold for polysynthesis.
My main project Hiding Waters is polysynthetic. Incorporation is the primary driver for derivation, and content words have quite a lot of morphemes on them. Not arbitrarily many, though; they have a templatic structure, you can't do the kind of arbitrary post-base stacking you can do in Alutiiq or Inuktitut and company.
Sọ̀guóḳȯdọqjkukslọtạnotlhqhnạwhọ́ṇg.
s<ọ̀>-g<uó-ḳ<ȯ>dọq-jk-u-k-sl-ọ-tạn<o>tlh>q-hnạwh<ọ́>ṇg
AUX<ABL.INAN>-eat<LEAD.VOL-last_night<VIA.INAN>-1.PL-LEAD-PFV-CLF(fish)-INAN-house<LOC.INAN>>-spent<LAT.INAN>
Because of that, we wanted to spend last night in the house eating the fish until it was all gone.
The root of the word is g*q, "eat", and it has four other roots incorporated onto it:
- sọ̀-, a semantically blank root that in this position means that something that was already stated caused this to happen
- -ḳȯdọq-, "last night", which in this position means the action happened throughout the full duration of last night
- -tạnotlh-, "house", which in this position means the house was the location of the action
- -hnạwhọ́ṇg, "spent/gone/exhausted/used up", which in this position means everything being used up was the end point of the action
-jku- marks the agent of the action: first person plural, "we"
-slọ- marks the patient of the action, something carrying the "fish" classifier.
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
I just noticed that my polysynthetic lang does not have 12 morphemes, at least in the sentences that I have so far. It has noun incorporation and agreement though.
K'úk'uts'
Wátsmuk'útásk'op'táptsatku__s'énits's'ats'íf'ets'iki'áptsatki.
[wa˦ts.mu˧.kʼu˦.ta˦s.kʼo˧pʼ.ta˦ˈ.tsa˧t.ku˧__sʼe˦.ni˧tsʼ.sʼa˧.tsʼi˦.fʼe˧.tsʼi˧.ki.ʔa˦ˈ.tsa˧t.ki˧]
wáts-muk'útás-k'ó-p't-á-p-tsa-tku_s'éníts'-s'ats'íf'ets'-iku-á-p-tsa-tku
tree-go-FAST-AROUND-FEM-HUM-CHILD-PST__ball-kick-AGAINST-FEM-HUM-CHILD-PST
The girl ran around the tree and kicked the ball.
K'úk'uts'
Wátsmuk'útásk'op'táptsatku__s'énits's'ats'íf'ets'iki'áptsatki.
[wa˦ts.mu˧.kʼu˦.ta˦s.kʼo˧pʼ.ta˦ˈ.tsa˧t.ku˧__sʼe˦.ni˧tsʼ.sʼa˧.tsʼi˦.fʼe˧.tsʼi˧.ki.ʔa˦ˈ.tsa˧t.ki˧]
wáts-muk'útás-k'ó-p't-á-p-tsa-tku_s'éníts'-s'ats'íf'ets'-iku-á-p-tsa-tku
tree-go-FAST-AROUND-FEM-HUM-CHILD-PST__ball-kick-AGAINST-FEM-HUM-CHILD-PST
The girl ran around the tree and kicked the ball.
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
Zot sounds interesting. I didn't find it with quick googling. Where is it spoken. Or is it a conlang of yours? In any case I'm interested to see more.Nortaneous wrote: ↑07 Nov 2022 00:14
The one language known to have marking of both subject and object on the verb, Zot, is one of the least typically polysynthetic: person marking is essentially derivational, with e.g. direct nominalization of person-marked forms being permitted, and frequently suppletive, and there are about thirty verbs, generally with vague and abstract meanings. For example:
nyuj
[nju˧˩]
you hit me
zos
[ʐo˧˥]
I hit you
yvpxp
[jɵ˩pæ˩]
we hit her
zomqf
[ʐo˥mɒ˧˥]
I who hit you
wxn'yvt
[wæ̃˥jɵ˥]
caning
wxn'yvzof
[wæ̃˥jɵ˧ʐo˦˥]
I cane you
wxn'yvyisinmqf
[wæ̃˥jɵ˧ji˥ɕĩ˥mɒ˥]
he who canes them
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
- LinguoFranco
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
I've made a few sketches of polysynthetic conlangs, but scrapped them pretty early due to boredom. I don't think it had anything to do with polysynthesis itself, I think it's just my ADHD that leads me to abandoning most of my projects before making any real progress.
The closest I've come is with my personal conlang, as it has rich verb conjugation and polypersonal agreement, but even then, I think it's more agglutinative than polysynthetic.
The closest I've come is with my personal conlang, as it has rich verb conjugation and polypersonal agreement, but even then, I think it's more agglutinative than polysynthetic.
Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
You're doing that Hmong thing, aren't you, with the illegal coda consonants to mark tone? And also that Thai Romanization thing where they use <v> and <x> as vowels?Nortaneous wrote: ↑07 Nov 2022 00:14 nyuj
[nju˧˩]
you hit me
zos
[ʐo˧˥]
I hit you
yvpxp
[jɵ˩pæ˩]
we hit her
- Man in Space
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
I see you've become familiar with Nort's phonological and orthographic flair. He has insane romanizations that I aspire to and fail to reach—I've always liked how he writes his languages.
Twin Aster megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
Kind of? I think my most recent project, which started off as Mayan inspired with bits of Navajo, Algonquian etc., is closest. Verbs are inflected for agreement with two arguments, TAM, polarity, motion, for various subordinate/adverbial functions, plus it has a preference for complex predicates (coverb+verb, or medial+final in Algonquian terminology) and it has noun incorporation. An example:
nurinkóhsatzól in tacha' o'
nu-r-ink-óh-satz-ól in tacha' o'
SUB-3-PROX-NEG-medicine-trans.liquid DET man DEIC
"Since the man didn't bring medicine"
"The man not having brought medicine, ..."
Verbs don't tend to get much bigger than that though (6-9 syllables), and the inflectional potential of other word classes is pretty limited by comparison.
nurinkóhsatzól in tacha' o'
nu-r-ink-óh-satz-ól in tacha' o'
SUB-3-PROX-NEG-medicine-trans.liquid DET man DEIC
"Since the man didn't bring medicine"
"The man not having brought medicine, ..."
Verbs don't tend to get much bigger than that though (6-9 syllables), and the inflectional potential of other word classes is pretty limited by comparison.
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Re: Have You Made a Polysynthetic Conlang?
I haven't seen those Thai romanizations, although I vaguely remember Google doing something odd with <x>.
I had a conlang with a romanization based on Nuosu (where <y v> are vowels and tones are marked <-p -t -x>), then H13 saw that and made one with <v w> as vowels (I assume based on Zhuang), then someone on IRC said why don't you use <q> for /Q/, and after that we found out about Natqgu and I added a schwa. So it's /a ɒ e ə o i u ɿ v̩/ <a q e z o i u y v>.
Zot, having long been a neighboring language to the more esteemed and widely spoken Zzyxwqnp, naturally has a lot of influence, so the orthographic norms should have something in common - hence tone letters (except only five word-level tone contours are possible, so you only need tone markers at the end of the word, as in wxn'yvyisinmqf) and <q>. <v> for /ɵ/ is because that's how Zzyxwqnp /v̩/ is borrowed.