False cognates

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Re: False cognates

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Nuxalk tł /tʰɬ̩/ vs Navajo dził /t͡sɪɬ/ and related forms? Are these true or false cognates?
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Re: False cognates

Post by qwed117 »

:ind: Sanskrit अवोचत् <ávocat> ‘he spoke’ vs English “have a chat[;)]
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Re: False cognates

Post by Khemehekis »

A surprising one I just found:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andhadhi

Tamil: andham (end)

Kankonian: andam (last)
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Re: False cognates

Post by All4Ɇn »

:hun: falka “flock/heard/pack/etc.”
:eng: flock
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov »

Latin <Genius> and Hebrew /gaʔon/ "Genius". I searched for the origin of the :isr:, based on the discussion on the False friends thread, thinking it might be a loan from a Greek form, but it seems to be a native form. The :isr: seems also to be unrelated to the :ara: source of the family of words that include "Jinn"
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Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf »

Japanese gaijin 'foreigner', Hebrew goj 'non-Jew' and Romani gajo 'non-Roma' are probably all unrelated.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov »

WeepingElf wrote: 08 Oct 2021 15:18 Japanese gaijin 'foreigner', Hebrew goj 'non-Jew' and Romani gajo 'non-Roma' are probably all unrelated.
I would say that the Gai in Gaijin, and the :isr: /goj/ are the false cognates here, since "goj" would be an IPA or German/Polish/Hungarian etc. spelling.
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Re: False cognates

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

I wonder if serious (and its cognates) /Sirius (σέιριος) counts. Prior to c. 1990 this would be less valid.

They come from different PIE roots, *seh-ro- and *twis-ro-.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Backstroke_Italics »

I can't believe I didn't mention this one already, but English barley[/i] and Korean bori[/i] always felt pretty close to me. The stop is phonetically unvoiced, but still.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus »

Backstroke_Italics wrote: 15 Oct 2021 12:11 I can't believe I didn't mention this one already, but English barley and Korean bori always felt pretty close to me. The stop is phonetically unvoiced, but still.
Closer: the other word for barley in English (the original OE word, now Scottish, but also surviving as a name for a specific type of barley) is bere. ['barley' is originally just 'bere'+'ly', i.e. "kind of like barley"].


But if you want something really implausible, if you start with bori in Korea and just hop over the border, it's bor in Russian. It must be a coincidence, because obviously the Russian word has a very firm PIE (or at least northwestern IE substrate?) basis, whereas the Korean is apparently first attested in Middle Korean, where it would have been /pwoli/. And since the word for 'oats' ends in the same -ri syllable, I'm guessing it's also a compound anyway. But it's certainly a striking coincidence!
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus »

Irish fear, 'man', vs Old Norse fjǫrr, 'man'.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov »

Has anyone mentioned :vie: <chào> and :ita: <ciao> yet>?
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus »

Latin nivalis - "snowy"
Dutch nevelig - "foggy"
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y »

English pork
Maori poaka "pig, pork"
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: False cognates

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Another unusual example:
English "Rat-a-tat" vs Finnish "Hra-ca-ca" (most prominently known in Ievan Polkka)

It's an ambiguous example though, as these words don't actually mean anything, they're normally just filler words used for metrical or rhyming purposes in poetic/musical context.
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Re: False cognates

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Khemehekis wrote: 02 Feb 2021 04:24 Here's a pair of false cognates between two conlangs by the same person, but it's complete coincidence!

I just noticed these words borrowed from roots (the way we borrow from Latin and Greek or Japanese borrows from Chinese) in some other language in my Kankonian dictionary spreadsheet file:

protium zipto
deuterium dukhto
tritium klankhto

So apparently some other language in the Lehola Galaxy made zip- its root for one, dukh- is root for two, and klankh- its root for three.

These were words between #33,630 and #33,640, so they would have been created in 2012.

And then, as you can see, Nachtuil invented the word zip for "one" when reverse-diachronizing my Txabao from his Kojikeng for me!:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7005&p=295167&hilit ... ao#p295167
Also, "zipto" and "zepto-" (10-21) (and thus "seven" and all its cognates, but that seems less important)
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Re: False cognates

Post by Sequor »

Arabic براق barraaq 'bright (colour)'
English bright

Arabic داكن daakin 'dark (colour)'
English dark

[xD]
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Re: False cognates

Post by Xonen »

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 09 Nov 2021 05:13 Another unusual example:
English "Rat-a-tat" vs Finnish "Hra-ca-ca" (most prominently known in Ievan Polkka)

It's an ambiguous example though, as these words don't actually mean anything, they're normally just filler words used for metrical or rhyming purposes in poetic/musical context.
I'm not entirely sure what sound the <c> is supposed to stand for here, /ts/? In any case, these might actually be real... "cognates", in that it's probably not a coincidence that the nonsense syllables used in humming and scat singing tend to be broadly similar all across Western music.
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Re: False cognates

Post by sangi39 »

Xonen wrote: 15 Nov 2021 20:47
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 09 Nov 2021 05:13 Another unusual example:
English "Rat-a-tat" vs Finnish "Hra-ca-ca" (most prominently known in Ievan Polkka)

It's an ambiguous example though, as these words don't actually mean anything, they're normally just filler words used for metrical or rhyming purposes in poetic/musical context.
I'm not entirely sure what sound the <c> is supposed to stand for here, /ts/? In any case, these might actually be real... "cognates", in that it's probably not a coincidence that the nonsense syllables used in humming and scat singing tend to be broadly similar all across Western music.
Took me a second, because it's not part of the Korpiklaani version of the song, haha, but it's "ratsatsaa". Apparently "hra-ca-ca" is how the "word" is written in the lyrics to a version by Miku Hatsune, which literally takes the bridge of the original, by Loituma, which is entirely meaningless, and uses that as (the basis for?) the lyrics instead.

The bridge in the original was, from what I can find:

"Hilipati hilipati hilipati hillaa,
Hilipati hilipati hilipampaa
Jalituli jallaa talituli jallaa
Tilitali tilitali tilitantaa
Halituli jallaa tilituli tallaa
Tilitili tilitili tilitili tallaa
Halituli tilitali jallati jallan,
Tilitali talitali helevantaa

Rimpatirallaa ripirapirallaa
Rumpatiruppa ripirampuu
Jakkarittaa rippari lapalan
Tulituli lallan tipiran tuu
Jatsu tsappari dikkari dallan
Tittari tillan titstan dullaa,
Dipidapi dallaa ruppati rupiran
Kurikan kukka ja kirikan kuu

Ratsatsaa ja ripidabi dilla
Beritstan dillan dellan doo
A baribbattaa baribbariiba
Ribiribi distan dellan doo
Ja barillas dillan deia dooa
Daba daba daba daba daba duvja vuu
Baristal dillas dillan duu ba daga
Daiga daida duu duu deiga dou"
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Xonen
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Re: False cognates

Post by Xonen »

sangi39 wrote: 15 Nov 2021 22:09
Xonen wrote: 15 Nov 2021 20:47
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 09 Nov 2021 05:13 Another unusual example:
English "Rat-a-tat" vs Finnish "Hra-ca-ca" (most prominently known in Ievan Polkka)

It's an ambiguous example though, as these words don't actually mean anything, they're normally just filler words used for metrical or rhyming purposes in poetic/musical context.
I'm not entirely sure what sound the <c> is supposed to stand for here, /ts/? In any case, these might actually be real... "cognates", in that it's probably not a coincidence that the nonsense syllables used in humming and scat singing tend to be broadly similar all across Western music.
Took me a second, because it's not part of the Korpiklaani version of the song, haha, but it's "ratsatsaa".
Yeah, well, that's more in line with normal Finnish orthography; <c> isn't really used at all, except in proper nouns, where it's usually pronounced /k/ or /s/ (as in English). Now, <c> is used in the Finno-Ugric transcription system for the affricate [ts], so I guess using it to transcribe Finnish scat singing at least... kind of makes sense? But then again, /ts/ is normally pronounced as a cluster in Finnish, not an affricate.
the bridge of the original, by Loituma
The bridge might well have been added by Loituma, but the original song is much older: the lyrics (or at least the first printed version of them) were published by Eino Kettunen in 1928, and the melody apparently goes back to at least the 18th century.
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