False cognates

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2830
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 01:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: False cognates

Post by sangi39 »

Xonen wrote: 16 Nov 2021 21:54
sangi39 wrote: 15 Nov 2021 22:09
Xonen wrote: 15 Nov 2021 20:47
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 09 Nov 2021 05:13 Another unusual example:
English "Rat-a-tat" vs Finnish "Hra-ca-ca" (most prominently known in Ievan Polkka)

It's an ambiguous example though, as these words don't actually mean anything, they're normally just filler words used for metrical or rhyming purposes in poetic/musical context.
I'm not entirely sure what sound the <c> is supposed to stand for here, /ts/? In any case, these might actually be real... "cognates", in that it's probably not a coincidence that the nonsense syllables used in humming and scat singing tend to be broadly similar all across Western music.
Took me a second, because it's not part of the Korpiklaani version of the song, haha, but it's "ratsatsaa".
Yeah, well, that's more in line with normal Finnish orthography; <c> isn't really used at all, except in proper nouns, where it's usually pronounced /k/ or /s/ (as in English). Now, <c> is used in the Finno-Ugric transcription system for the affricate [ts], so I guess using it to transcribe Finnish scat singing at least... kind of makes sense? But then again, /ts/ is normally pronounced as a cluster in Finnish, not an affricate.
That was something that confused me about the lyrics in the booklet for Ajattara's album Äpäre. I'd have to did it out, but I'm sure it used <c> in place of <k> in almost all instances, possibly except where <k> came after another consonant (where it would remain <k>)? I'd only just started with Finnish (and as is always the case, never really learned much thanks to "oo, new language! Shiny!") but it was very "wait, what is this <c> here for?" [:P]


Xonen wrote: 16 Nov 2021 21:54
the bridge of the original, by Loituma
The bridge might well have been added by Loituma, but the original song is much older: the lyrics (or at least the first printed version of them) were published by Eino Kettunen in 1928, and the melody apparently goes back to at least the 18th century.
Ohhhh, cool! I did not know that [:D]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1115
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: False cognates

Post by Xonen »

The tangent that grew out of the Ievan Polkka discussion has been split off into its own thread.
User avatar
Sequor
sinic
sinic
Posts: 342
Joined: 30 Jun 2012 06:13

Re: False cognates

Post by Sequor »

Saw someone post this elsewhere:

:rus: опасно opásno 'dangerous(ly)'
:nld: oppassen 'to watch out, beware'

Russian and Dutch being closely related confirmed. "Totally explains the flags."
hīc sunt linguificēs. hēr bēoþ tungemakeras.
User avatar
WeepingElf
sinic
sinic
Posts: 266
Joined: 23 Feb 2016 18:42
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
Contact:

Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf »

Sequor wrote: 19 Nov 2021 01:17 Saw someone post this elsewhere:

:rus: опасно opásno 'dangerous(ly)'
:nld: oppassen 'to watch out, beware'

Russian and Dutch being closely related confirmed. "Totally explains the flags."
But seriously, I have once heard that Czar Peter the Great modelled the Russian flag on the Dutch one, just permuting the colours.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Post Reply