False cognates

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Salmoneus
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus »

qwed117 wrote:
12 May 2020 03:45
The reconstruction back to Proto-Bantu would indicate that the word was used in that area around 500 AD at minimum, well before significant Indo-Arabic trade had reached that far south
Just to point out: trade between subsaharan Africa and the north (Rome, Carthage, Egypt, Persia, India) was extensive long before 500AD. [Julius Caesar, for example, had a pet giraffe].
, and additionally, at a time when Bantu speakers would be confined to the interior of the Congo Rainforest, making a borrowing unlikely.
Proto-Bantu would have been spoken thousands of years earlier, and not in the interior of the Congo Rainforest (which is, of course, about the only place where there wouldn't have been any lions).

Do we know which Bantu languages actually have the word? Also, wiktionary only gives Swahili as having it mean 'lion' - every other language I can find it in has it mean 'genet'.

That probably makaes Bantu origin more likely. However, lion > big cat > genet could conceivably be a recent shift, as the range of the lion has collapsed.

The one thing that makes the wanderwort an intriguing idea here is that if Bantu speakers DID reach east africa through the congo (no lions!) then they could conceivably have borrowed a word for 'lion' from east africans who were already dealing with lions. And the native east africans at that point would in many case have been afro-asiatic and would have migrated from further north, where they could have either produced or received a wanderwort.

But this idea is a bit of a stretch, and only works if the word in Bantu is limited to languages from the eastern branch, or languages that could have borrowed from the eastern branch.
Additionally the anusvara in Sanskrit would imply that a loanword would probably contain a nasal vowel or a velar nasal, the most common reflexes of *ṃh in Indic languages (cf. :ind: Hindi सिंघ siṅgh lion). It would additionally be unusual for the nasalized vowel to fortite to mb.
You're assuming the word would be borrowed from Sanskrit, which seems unlikely.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Alessio »

:fin: muuttaa /muːtːɑː/ - to change or it changes
:ita: muta /mu(ː)ta/ - it changes

The Finnish word is from muu (other, different) + the causative verbalizing suffix -ttaa, where muu is from Proto-Finno-Ugric *mu (couldn't find an etymology up to Proto-Uralic), whereas the Italian is from Latin mutat, 3SG of mutō, which is supposed to come either directly from PIE *meytH- (to exchange) or from moveō (to move), itself from PIE *mew- (to move).
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: :rus: [:)] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás, Hedetsūrk, Darezh...

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...

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DesEsseintes
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Re: False cognates

Post by DesEsseintes »

English fire and Thai ไฟ fai are, perhaps unsurprisingly, not cognate.

GrandPiano
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano »

:es-pv: da "is"
:jpn: だ da "is, are, am"

:es-pv: haize "wind"
:jpn: 風 kaze "wind"

:es-pv: bi "two"
:eng: bi-, :lat: bis "twice"

:es-pv: sei "six"
:ita: sei "six", :esp: :por: seis "six"

:es-pv: urre "gold"
:lat: aurum "gold"
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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qwed117
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Re: False cognates

Post by qwed117 »

GrandPiano wrote:
26 May 2020 05:58
:es-pv: bi "two"
:eng: bi-, :lat: bis "twice"

:es-pv: sei "six"
:ita: sei "six", :esp: :por: seis "six"

:es-pv: urre "gold"
:lat: aurum "gold"
I'm not sure, given how little we know of proto-Vasconic, if we could make the argument that these are truly not cognates.
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Ser
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Re: False cognates

Post by Ser »

qwed117 wrote:
27 May 2020 20:52
I'm not sure, given how little we know of proto-Vasconic, if we could make the argument that these are truly not cognates.
I agree. I was thinking that urre could alternatively come from Latin aerem 'copper' perhaps.
hīc sunt linguificēs. hēr bēoþ tungemakeras.

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Pabappa
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Re: False cognates

Post by Pabappa »

Trask claims there is no connection, and that "old B" had a word urragin "silversmith", though I dont think that what he calls old B is the same as what we call old Basque, so it might not be that old.

https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/Re ... echnik.pdf

edit: i think old B means medieval Bizkaian Basque.
I'll take the theses, and you can have the thoses.

GrandPiano
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano »

qwed117 wrote:
27 May 2020 20:52
GrandPiano wrote:
26 May 2020 05:58
:es-pv: bi "two"
:eng: bi-, :lat: bis "twice"

:es-pv: sei "six"
:ita: sei "six", :esp: :por: seis "six"

:es-pv: urre "gold"
:lat: aurum "gold"
I'm not sure, given how little we know of proto-Vasconic, if we could make the argument that these are truly not cognates.
Apparently bi was originally biga (attested in some dialects and apparently the form reconstructed for Proto-Basque), so based on that a borrowing from Latin bis seems unlikely. It also seems odd to me that, if Basque had borrowed its word for "two" from Latin, the borrowing would be from bis "twice" and not from duo "two".

As for sei, Trask (linked by Pabappa in the previous post) says "Attempts at deriving this from Rom. have failed, since all neighbouring Rom. varieties have a final sibilant in their word for ‘six’, and hence a borrowing should have yielded a Bq. *seits or *seis, at best." A borrowing from Latin also seems unlikely to me, since the Latin word was sex.

For urre, Trask says that a connection with aurum isn't possible, as Pabappa noted. I think *auru would be the expected result if aurum had been borrowed into Basque.

If by "Proto-Vasconic" you mean the hypothetical shared ancestor of Basque and Aquitanian, then yes, we don't know much about that; however, Proto-Basque has been reconstructed, and we also know what correspondences to expect between Latin loanwords in Basque and the Latin words they came from.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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