Pan-Germanic Logograms

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Lambuzhao
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Lambuzhao »

Also noteworthy is the collaboration, support, scaffolding and just plain-old creative spirit demonstrated in this thread.

[+1] [+1] [+1]
[:D]
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by clawgrip »

Testing some styles here. The first is Ephraim's text, the second is the style I used for my original glyphs, and the third is based somewhat on the runes in the image posted by HinGambleGoth.

Image

haven't fully nailed down the exact style, but I'm working on it. Any opinions?
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Znex »

I like those lower two ones. I feel like the second could become more a scribal hand while the third could become a more ornate decorative hand, like for illuminated manuscripts.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by k1234567890y »

Totally I created 15 glyphs...and the aesthetics of them are bad...

Image
wind(PGmc: *windaz)

Image
water(PGmc: *watōr)(also used as a 部首 for words indicating liquids)

Image
sun(PGmc: *sunnǭ)(also used as a 部首 for words indicating time, light or things related to the sun)

Image
force, might(PGmc: *mahtiz)

Image
mouth(PGmc: *munþaz)(also used as a 部首 for words indicating things or actions related to mouth or sounds)

Image
to stand(PGmc: *standaną)(also used as a 部首 for words indicating locations)

Image
stone(PGmc: *stainaz)

Image
location, place, stede(PGmc: *stadiz)(derived from the glyph of "to stand")

Image
strong, tight(PGmc: *strangaz)

Image
stiff, strong(PGmc: *strangaz)

Image
blow(PGmc: *blēwaz)(from the combination of the glyph of "mouth" and the glyph of "wind")

Image
east(PGmc: *austrą)(derived from the glyph of "sun")

Image
west(PGmc: *westrą)(derived from the glyph of "sun")

Image
ice(PGmc: *īsą)(from the combination of the glyph of "water" and the glyph of "stone")

Image
north(PGmc: *nurþrą)(from the combination of the glyph of "ice" and the glyph of "location")

I borrowed the Chinese term 部首 here, to know what a 部首 is, one can read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_( ... haracters)
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by clawgrip »

Some of these seem a bit complex...also I should point out that one of the key elements of runes is that horizontal lines are completely forbidden.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by k1234567890y »

clawgrip wrote:Some of these seem a bit complex...also I should point out that one of the key elements of runes is that horizontal lines are completely forbidden.
hmm...ok...maybe I should replace the horizontal lines with the "^"-like strokes or the "v"-like strokes?
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

@Clawgrip: I definitely like the style you used in your original suggestions. In fact, I liked some of your suggestions as well. I think the only feature we weren't really on board with was the Chinese Oracle Bone inspiration for some of them.

@k#y: Are 'ice' and 'location' supposed to be the same? Also, can you throw those in a spoiler tag, those images are kinda huge when all in the same posts, adds a lot of unnecessary scrolling. Also, why would you use '部首' when the word 'radical' works just as well? I didn't finish reading your post before I looked it up myself for a meaning (only to discover you'd put a link and definition on the bottom!!)... just seems confusing to use the characters like that in the middle of an English sentence.

Excuse my ignorance, but are these accurate meanings?
Spoiler:
Image
If so, I'd suggest we use these for their meaning as actual logograms themselves. I mean, no need to reinvent the *raþą or something.
Image
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Lambuzhao »

Hey Folks,

Apparently, Icelandic Runes have a tradition of quite a number of logogram-like compound rune symbols, which are called Bind-Runes ( :non: bandrún) .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bind_rune

I think we are basically engaging in, and updating, and/or branching out (scuse the pun) on this venerable old art. Interesting to note, the ligatured Bind-Runes seem to be more common in Proto-Norse inscriptions than in later, so we may be on the path of a possible natural progression from at least Proto-Norse times, if not earlier. :mrgreen:


Take a gander:

A handful of Runes, all named-
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/550x/ ... 5aa5c2.jpg

Peace
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4097/4887 ... 494c05.jpg

Vegvisir (Runic Compass)
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ ... 29c6e2.jpg
(maybe some ideas for direction-symbols could be taken from here)

Various more complex Bind-runes, with explanations-
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ ... 9fb1ed.jpg

[:D]
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Lambuzhao »

Thrice Xandvii wrote:@Clawgrip: I definitely like the style you used in your original suggestions. In fact, I liked some of your suggestions as well. I think the only feature we weren't really on board with was the Chinese Oracle Bone inspiration for some of them.

@k#y: Are 'ice' and 'location' supposed to be the same? Also, can you throw those in a spoiler tag, those images are kinda huge when all in the same posts, adds a lot of unnecessary scrolling. Also, why would you use '部首' when the word 'radical' works just as well? I didn't finish reading your post before I looked it up myself for a meaning (only to discover you'd put a link and definition on the bottom!!)... just seems confusing to use the characters like that in the middle of an English sentence.

Excuse my ignorance, but are these accurate meanings?
Spoiler:
Image
If so, I'd suggest we use these for their meaning as actual logograms themselves. I mean, no need to reinvent the *raþą or something.
I agree, with reservation.

Through their history, many Runes, If not all, had variant shapes. Just take *Sowilo (Sigel)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowil%C5%8D

Perhaps a (simpler?) variant could be used as the "combining form" of rune in a Bind-Rune, to keep it familiar yet distinct from the alphabetic rune.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Lambuzhao »

@ clawgrip, and everyone else

I dunno if you've seen this -

http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Fonts/AngloSaxon.html

But it has some interesting stylistic variations, and includes some of the known ligatured alphabetic rune pairs.

Also, the Artist known as Naeddyr on DeviantArt, has a pair of interesting font stylistic variations:

Anglo-Saxon Sans-Serif (A lot like HinGambleGoth's, I wonder if Naeddyr got them from the same Swedish source?)
http://pre07.deviantart.net/c61c/th/pre ... aeddyr.png

Blackletter Nyfutork
http://orig14.deviantart.net/3a40/f/200 ... aeddyr.jpg
Last edited by Lambuzhao on 23 Sep 2015 21:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

Lambuzhao wrote:Perhaps a (simpler?) variant could be used as the "combining form" of rune in a Bind-Rune, to keep it familiar yet distinct from the alphabetic rune.
That makes a lot of sense. Otherwise, we could maybe have a sort of upper and lowercase, in which the lower case might be for individual letters or somesuch and the uppercase was for logographic meanings? Just spit-balling here.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Ephraim »

Fuþark-letters
So, the system I used for writing the endings above is somewhat complicated. But here's an attempt at writing down the principles:
1. At the stage of Proto-Germanic Proper (the last stage from which all Germanic languages are descended, not including later changes that are common to all Germanic languages), there was a semi-alphabetic system which was mainly used for endings. This happened to look like the Elder Futhark but there was some differences in use. Here are some basic rules:
1a. All consonants are written. Geminates are written with single letters.
1b. The <b>, <d> and <g>-runes are used for PG *b, *d and *g which may were probably either voiced fricatives or voiced plosives depending on position. The <f>, <þ> and <h>-runes are only used for the voiceless fricatives *f, *þ, *h, never for the voiced.
1c. The <u>, <i>, <e> and <o>-runes are used to write long or overlong vowels.
1d. The unstressed element in a falling diphthong is written as <j> or <w>.
1e. The <a>-rune is used for any word-final or word-initial short vowel.
1f. Short vowels are otherwise not written with full letter but may be optionally indicated with a vowel mark under the following consonant-letter for suffixes, or preceding consonant letter for prefixes.
2. The spelling was fixed at the stage of Proto-Germanic Proper. After that, the endings retained their spelling even though the pronunciation changed. Thus, the correspondance between letters and sound grew weaker.
3. At some point, Futhark letters were fused into ligatures to save precious space on stones and because many letters had become silent. This way, what was once a semialphabetic system became a semilogographic system, with ligatures roughly corresponding to morphemes. But the system is still based on (original) form and not grammatical meaning.
4. As long as the daughter languages develop through sound changes, the old spellings are retained. This may lead to forms that were originally differentiated merging in pronunciation but not in spelling. The old spelling should basically be retained until an entire category of grammatical distinction is lost. For example, certain nouns may distinguish the nominative and accusative in writing but not in pronunciation, as long as the language retains both cases for other nouns and it's not obviously inappropriate (there's a lot of room for arbitrary decisions). There must be a language-internal way to tell what case should be used (by testing with other nouns). If the accusative is lost altogether, the distinction should not be upheld in writing. Occasionally, paradigms are reorganized by borrowing forms from some source. In that case, the spelling is borrowed along with the pronunciation.

The idea behind this system is to maintain some degree of mutual intelligibility with regards to the endings, and also to have a relatively compact writing system for endings that were originally quite long but which are very short in the daughter languages.

Alternative systems
Of course, the system I've proposed above is not the only alternative for writing endings. Here are some alternatives I can think of:
1. Using true logograms for each endings.
2. Using fusional logograms for abstract grammatical meanings corresponding to an ending, say a general nom.pl marker or a past.3pl marker.
3. Using agglutinative logograms for abstract grammatical meanings, like a plural marker and a nominative marker.
4. Writing the Proto-Germanic endings semi-alphabetically without short vowels but leaving them as free-standing letters.
5. Writing the Proto-Germanic endings alphabetically with all vowels and leaving them as free-standing letters.
6. Writing the endings with free-standing alphabetic letters as they are pronounced in a given language.
7. Writing the endings alphabetically as they are pronounced in a given language, but fusing the endings into ligatures.
8. An alternative phonetic writing system of some sort.

Should the goal be naturalism?
Well, to some extent. I think the writing system should avoid features that couldn't possibly have developed or have been maintained by early Germanic speakers. This include features that require modern grammatical analysis or pictographic representation that are anachronistic. I also think the orthography of the modern languages should have a plausible history that can be traced from the earliest stages of writing.

But I think the writing system should "accidentally" develop to be very well suited for representing all Germanic languages (historical and present) while maintaining a degree of mutual intelligibility. In total, the system may be unnaturally neat. I don't think we should introduce irregularities and ambiguities for the sake of naturalism.

Should the Futhark letters also be used as logograms corresponding to their names?
I don't think they should as a general rule. But if their similar but differentiated, that's fine. However, the names of the Futhark runes don't seem to have anything to do with the shape. The names actually differ slightly between runic alphabets. The shapes of some runes are clearly derived from Italic or Greek letters (Sowilō <s> looks like a Greek sigma or an Old Italic s), the names were probably just chosen because they happened to begin with the sound the letters represent.

There is a certain need for clearly differentiating phonetic and logographic letters. Germanic languages have both suffixes and prefixes, and word can be compounds of more than one root (each with suffixes and prefixes). It can therefore be hard to tell what is what. Could languages deal with this ambiguity in practice? Of course they could. But see above about naturalism.

However, single runes might work as root-logograms for grammatical words. For example, the <þ>-rune should be used for the demonstrative-stem in *þ (English that and the) and the <s>-rune (Old English , which was later remodelled as þē) for the demonstrative stem in *s.

I also think the Fuþark letters should be used as phonetic complements. For example, *hrussą and *ehwaz both seem to have meant ‘horse’ in PG. Perhaps *ehwaz may have it's own logogram, while *hrussą is written as a ligature of <h> and this logogram. So it should be understood as ‘a horse-word that begins with /x/’.
Lambuzhao wrote:Even if these sorts of glyphs were begun during a Proto-Germanic time, I do not think the alphabetic
portion would retain the /d/ and /ō/. The /d/ for the 2PL just does not look right to me at all, considering
:got: , :non: (and remember Old :eng: as well ) would use some kind of þorn rune IMO.
If the principles I've given above are followed, then I think the 2pl-ending should be written with <d> for East and North Germanic buth <þ> for West Germanic (not sure about all WG languages). For Proto-Germanic, it depends on the verb. Verbs that had stressed on the syllable immediately before the ending in Pre-PG probably had *þ while other verbs had *d due to Verner's law (*d was almost certainly [ð] in this position). So *sōkijiþ but *haldid. I think there are also further sets of mixed endings.

In Old High German and Old English, the endings appear go back to the voiceless endings so they should be written with <þ>.

On the other hand, Gothic seems to have generalized the voiced endings (*z rather than *s, *d rather than *þ). It's difficult to tell, though, due to the fact that Gothic had final devoicing (<d> [ð] devoiced to and merged with <þ> [θ], <z> with <s>). But if we look at endings where the consonant was not final, they point to the voiced ending. Also, final nd in the 3pl does not appear to devoice (after nasals, /d/ was a plosive and not a fricative) and this ending also points to the voiced set. We can probably assume that the 2pl also goes back to the voiced ending.

North-Germanic seem to follow Gothic in having voiced endings. However, Proto-Norse also went through a stage of final devoicing (<d> [ð] devoiced to and merged with <þ> [θ]). After that, the language went through a stage of medial and final voicing (!) of spirants which is what you see in Old Norse. So PG *d and *þ simply merged as [ð] except initially. In Runic Norse, the <þ>-rune is often used for both the voiced and voiceless fricative while <d> is reserved for the voiced plosive. But *ʀ (from *z) never merged with *s, so we can tell from the 2sg *ʀ goes back to the voiced endings.

There is still the possibility that all languages could be written with the same set of endings regardless of pronunciation. This would improve mutual intelligibility. Either we should consistently use the symbols for the voiced endings, or the symbols for the voiceless. Perhaps there was one early prestige dialect which influenced the spelling of the other languages (but not the pronunciation).
Lambuzhao wrote:The oþala looks & feels like it has too much gravitas in the descendant languages which either delete the vowel or front it. You might have mentioned somewhere that these may be optional, and I might have missed that.
You may be right. The long vowel (long vowels are not optional) it represents often remained as a vowel in the daughter languages, but it was lost in a few common endings so perhaps it is possible to make it less prominent. I think it should be written the way it is when it stands on it's own (even if it happens to have become silent) but perhaps there may be an alternative space-saving way of writing it in ligatures.
Lambuzhao wrote:And, just like :lat: (no doubt those meddling monks influenced here) a kind of macron or dot could represent
a missing letter or two or three.
Yes, something like that could be useful actually.
Lambuzhao wrote:I think the vowel ligatures make some sense, Ephraim. Only I would join them to the root as branchlets (ooh, very Yggdrasil here), like so:


Image
[...]

Sure, one runs the risk of missing them/misreading them. It just seemed more natural to me that they'd branch off of the main rune somehow.
That might be an alternative. It maybe works best if the vowel marks are obligatory, though. One advantage of using diacritical marks beneath the letters is that they can be added in later without having to change the spacing of the letters, which is useful when they're not obligatory.
Lambuzhao wrote:BTW: IMHO no need to 'mark' a zero-grade form with a diacritic, as in *fotiz. Still, I liked the idea of your slash diacritic for the unmarked form, so I switched it for the crossbar /i/ and /i:/ ligatures. Wutevs. :roll:
There are actually two reason to mark the zero-vocalism: (1) ligatures can have multiple vowel slots so you need to mark a slot as "filled" with nothing and (2) since the system is optional, there is a difference between unmarked vocalism and marked zero-vocalism. Arabic and Hebrew vowels marks have a zero diacritic mainly for the second reason, I think.
Thrice Xandvii wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but are these accurate meanings?
Spoiler:
Image
That's the Anglo-Saxon Fuþorc, which is slightly different from the Elder Futhark:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark
clawgrip wrote:Testing some styles here. The first is Ephraim's text, the second is the style I used for my original glyphs, and the third is based somewhat on the runes in the image posted by HinGambleGoth.

Image

haven't fully nailed down the exact style, but I'm working on it. Any opinions?
Those look great! I especially like the third row, because it really shows that this is a European writing system.

If you make any new glyph designs, it would be useful to have them in a very simple style and a large font for reference to see how they are constructed. But by all means also post a fancier style if you like.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Lambuzhao »

Not to replace, but maybe complement k123's suggestion for *norþr


I took as a cue the staves from the :non: Vegvísir or Runic Compass:

Image


And I came up with these isolated symbols. They kind of remind me of more angular Seal Script versions of 南 'south', 東 'east', 西 'west' and the sort of related 高 'high' .

I made them in isolated ornate, simplified, and then simplified carved/handwritten versions:

Image

:wat:
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by k1234567890y »

Thrice Xandvii wrote:Are 'ice' and 'location' supposed to be the same?
no, I just found that I put the wrong pic for "location"...I made a mistake, sorry.

The right glyph for "location":
Spoiler:
Image
Thrice Xandvii wrote:Also, can you throw those in a spoiler tag, those images are kinda huge when all in the same posts, adds a lot of unnecessary scrolling.
ok...
Thrice Xandvii wrote: Also, why would you use '部首' when the word 'radical' works just as well? I didn't finish reading your post before I looked it up myself for a meaning (only to discover you'd put a link and definition on the bottom!!)... just seems confusing to use the characters like that in the middle of an English sentence.
hmm...I didn't find the English word at first...
Spoiler:
Lambuzhao wrote:Not to replace, but maybe complement k123's suggestion for *norþr


I took as a cue the staves from the :non: Vegvísir or Runic Compass:

Image


And I came up with these isolated symbols. They kind of remind me of more angular Seal Script versions of 南 'south', 東 'east', 西 'west' and the sort of related 高 'high' .

I made them in isolated ornate, simplified, and then simplified carved/handwritten versions:

Image

:wat:
not bad :)
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

k#y wrote:hmm...I didn't find the English word at first...
Oh wow, I never considered that might have been the reason. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk!
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by k1234567890y »

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
k#y wrote:hmm...I didn't find the English word at first...
Oh wow, I never considered that might have been the reason. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk!
don't worry, maybe it's my thought not to google for an appropriate term first. :)
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Lambuzhao »

@ k1234567890:
not bad :)
Spoiler:
Image

Óðrœrir!!
<Cup of the Mead of Poetry>
Creativity!!
Failing a bindrune for 'thanks', I think this is pretty apropos at any rate.

[:)]
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by Lambuzhao »

One more, a possible bindrune for warrior:
Spoiler:
Image
http://www.the80sman.com/wp-content/upl ... r_1984.jpg

Patty Smyth - The Warrior.... of what, I forget. :roll:
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by clawgrip »

Is the process for deriving new glyphs decided on, or are we going to wait until there is a significant collection of basic glyphs first?
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Re: Pan-Germanic Logograms

Post by clawgrip »

Are these the only logograms that are absolutely agreed upon? Are there more?

Image
foot, hand, eye, mouth, fish, octopus/kraken, guest, shield, in, yon, hold, die/dead, wind, water, sun

Also, which version of mouth looks better?

Image

This is of course just the style of this particular typeface. For this particular type, There are thick vertical/curved strokes, thin diagonal strokes, and thin curved strokes. The first two always get serifs on their endpoints. Currently, curved thick strokes get serifs when they reach the top or bottom, even when they don't end there, hence the serifs on the tops and bottoms of the round glyphs, including "guest". Not sure what the best thing to do there is.
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