How would you romanize Kazakh?

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Vlürch
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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by Vlürch »

I know bumping a year-old thread is annoying, but making a new thread seems unnecessary considering this one already exists. Hopefully it's fine, since I feel like this topic is just as relevant now as it was a year ago.

At least for now, they seem to be still using the old Cyrillic alphabet alongside the new Latin one. Apparently it's like this only for a transitional period of six years, though, during which they'll force everyone to embrace the awful new alphabet...? Apparently they'll also be somehow trying to eliminate Russian influence.

But seriously, is there any hope that they'll realise the new alphabet sucks? I mean, I get that random language nerds who've never even been to Kazakhstan complaining about it online could be seen as being almost as imperialist as the Russian Empire's invasion of the country once upon a time, but still... I just hate seeing languages being flushed down the toilet, which I know nobody cares about except other random language nerds while most Kazakhs themselves are probably happy with it? But ugh.

Anyway, I think the simplest fix for the current mess would be to just reorganise their chosen letters and get rid of the dotless I:
1) first do what everyone's already said and replace <ý> with <w>
2) replace <w> with <u> between consonants and word-finally
3) replace <ı> with <ý> à la Turkmen; <я ё ю> become <ýa ýo ýu> but <и> becomes <yý>
4) word-initial <е> as <ýe> would match phonetics better
5) when the word has front vowels before it, replace <yý> with <iý>
6) between consonants, romanise <и> as <i>
7) romanise <ң> as <n> before <k g q ǵ> and <ń> elsewhere

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Creyeditor
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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by Creyeditor »

Just wanted to mention that the actual phonemic system of vowels in Kazakh seems to be debated, as well as the vowel harmony facts (and relatedly, some consonant pattens). Might be a reason for confusing orthography.
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Vlürch
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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by Vlürch »

Just now, I randomly came across an article in Karakalpak (written in the Cyrillic script) and decided to look up if they also have a Latin alternative... welp, turns out their alphabet is being reformed in a way that's similar to the reformed Kazakh Latin alphabet, only it may be even worse when it comes to the I's and actually predates the Kazakh reform if Wikipedia is to be trusted.

Apparently, it uses <Ii> for /i/ and <Íı> for /ɯ/... like, what. [>_<] I mean, at least the lowercase forms are just right and it uses <y> for /j/ so I'm not saying it's worse overall, but the mismatch between case forms is definitely even more nonsensical; why not just use <Íí> for /ɯ/, which would allow /i/ to be romanised <Ii> without issue? Or the opposite, in which case the acute accent would unambiguously signify fronting of vowels? I guess the destruction of aesthetics and practicality is now a top priority for the Turkic deciders.

I wonder when the Kyrgyz will decide to switch to a Latin alphabet, and how bad it wil be...
Creyeditor wrote:
20 Apr 2019 09:49
Just wanted to mention that the actual phonemic system of vowels in Kazakh seems to be debated, as well as the vowel harmony facts (and relatedly, some consonant pattens). Might be a reason for confusing orthography.
Seems so (same with Uzbek), but there's no justifiable reason for them to use <ı> for /j/ under any circumstances and not use <w> for /w/, especially since they're not using <w> for anything else.

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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by Xonen »

Vlürch wrote:
20 Apr 2019 05:01
I know bumping a year-old thread is annoying, but making a new thread seems unnecessary considering this one already exists. Hopefully it's fine
Let's check the rules of the Internet:
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Note the bit "Post must be inane and not significantly contribute to the discussion". Injecting a short and/or otherwise pointless post into a dead thread will accomplish nothing but raise its putrid husk to shamble aimlessly among the living, leaving confusion and dismay in its wake. By contrast, properly preparing a meaningful response to the thread will genuinely revive and restore it to serve its original purpose once more.

So yeah, it's fine. In fact, at least on this board, it's generally preferable to bump an old thread rather than post a new one on the same subject. Saves us mods the trouble of having to merge them. [¬.¬]

anlztrk
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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by anlztrk »

I know I already posted in this thread, but I came up with this system the other day and to me it just looks fantastic, if a bit Slavic influenced. I don't see any reason for non-Oghuz Turkic languages to use the Common Turkic Alphabet anyway.

/m n ŋ/ <m n ň>
/p b t d k ɡ q/ <p b t d k g q>
/*t͡s *t͡ɕ/ <c č>
/*f *v s z ʃ ʒ *ɕ *x ʁ *h/ <f v s z š ž ś x ǧ h>
/l j w/ <l j w>
/r/ <r>

/ɘ~ɪ ʉ ə ʊ/ <i ü y u>
/əj~ɘj ʊw~əw~ʉw~ɘw <ī ū>
/i̯ɘ y̯ʉ~ø~œ u̯o/ <e ö o>
/*i̯e/ <e>
/æ ɑ/ <ä a>
/*jo jʊw~jəw~jʉw~jɘw jɑ/ <jo jū ja>

Сотта Тұрсынкүл Жоланова «Жалғыз басты анамын, бір баламды жалғыз асырап отырмын. Кейде жейтін тамағымыз болмай қалады. Үкіметке наразылығымды айтқым келді. Президентімді өзім қалап сайлағым келеді. 30 жылдың ішінде сайлауға барып Назарбаевқа дауыс берген емеспін» деді.

Sotta Tursynkül Žolanova “Žalǧyz basty anamyn, bir balamdy žalǧyz asyrap otyrmyn. Kejde žejtin tamaǧymyz bolmaj qalady. Ükimetke narazylyǧymdy ajtqym keldi. Prezīdentimdi özim qalap sajlaǧym keledi. 30 žyldyň išinde sajlawǧa baryp Nazarbaevqa dawys bergen emespin” dedi.


I'd rather just keep the Cyrillic script though, which is probably what they'll eventually decide anyway.

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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by Zythros Jubi »

/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p b t d k ɡ q/ <p b t d k g q>
/*t͡s *t͡ɕ/ <ts tc>
/*f *v s z ʃ ʒ *ɕ *x ʁ *h/ <f v s z c j cc/ctc h gh h>
/l j w/ <l y w>
/r/ <r>

/ɘ~ɪ ʉ ə ʊ/ <i ü ï u>
/əj~ɘj ʊw~əw~ʉw~ɘw <y w>
/i̯ɘ y̯ʉ~ø~œ u̯o/ <e ö o>
/*i̯e/ <ä>
/æ ɑ/ <ä a>
/*jo jʊw~jəw~jʉw~jɘw jɑ/ <yo yw ya>

Сотта Тұрсынкүл Жоланова «Жалғыз басты анамын, бір баламды жалғыз асырап отырмын. Кейде жейтін тамағымыз болмай қалады. Үкіметке наразылығымды айтқым келді. Президентімді өзім қалап сайлағым келеді. 30 жылдың ішінде сайлауға барып Назарбаевқа дауыс берген емеспін» деді.

Sotta Tursïnkül Jolanova «Jalghïz bastï anamïn, bir balamdï jalghïz asïrap otïrmïn. Keyde jeytin tamaghïmïz bolmay qaladï. Ükimetke narazïlïghïmdï aytqïm keldi. Prezydentimdi özim qalap saylaghïm keledi. 30 jïldïng ïcinde saylawgha barïp Nazarbaevqa dawïs bergen emespin» dedi.
Lostlang plans: Oghur Turkic, Gallaecian Celtic, Palaeo-Balkanic

dva_arla
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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by dva_arla »

Chagatai, anybody?

Барлық адамдар тумысынан* азат және қадір-қасиеті мен кұқықтары тең болып дүниеге келеді. Адамдарға ақыл-парасат**, ар-ождан берілген, сондықтан олар бір-бірімен туыстық, бауырмалдық*** қарым-қатынас**** жасаулары тиіс.

بارلق آدملر توعُمسنن* آزاد جنه قادرــــــخاصيتی من حقوقلری تڭ بولب دنياَغه كله‌دی. آدملرغه عقلــــپـاراسات**، آر وجدان بريلگن، سونلقدن ولر برـــــبريمن تووسلق، باعُرماللق*** قارمــــــقاتناس**** جاساعُلري تييس

*Is -ан a suffix that varies with -ен?
**Is парасат a Persian loanword, or a Turkic construction? If the latter, what elements are the word consisted of?
*** Is -мал a suffix or a bahuvrihi-element, and does -дик here come from -dıq or -lıq?
**** Is the -нас a suffix?

As you can see, the alphabet is morpho-etymological in nature; spelling of suffixes are morphophonemic, so that (for instance) the plural suffix varying as -лар -лер -дар -дер are spelt consistently as لر ; hence the questions above. Orthography of Persian loanwords have been retained, and the separate letter عُ has been used to represent -w coming from Turkic -ğ (cf. English though, dough, rough).

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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by gokupwned5 »

/p b t d (tɕ) k g q ɢ/ <p b t d (ç) k g q ġ>
/f v s~θ z~ð ʃ ʒ (ɕ x) h/ <f v s z ş j (ś x) h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/r l j w/ <r l y w>
-RTR: /æ ɘ ʉ i̯ɘ y̯ʉ/ <ä e u i iu>
+RTR: /ɑ ə ʊ u̯ʊ/ <a ı o uo>

/bɑrləq ɑdɑmdɑr tʊməsənɑn ɑzɑt ʒæni̯ɘ qɑdɘr-qɑsəji̯ɘtɘ mi̯ɘn kʊqəqtɑrə ti̯ɘŋ bu̯ʊləp dʉnəji̯ɘgi̯ɘ ki̯ɘli̯ɘdi̯ɘ ɑdɑmdɑrɢɑ ɑqəlpɑrɑsɑt ɑru̯ʊʒdɑn bi̯ɘrɘlgi̯ɘn su̯ʊndəqtɑn u̯ʊlɑr bɘrbɘrɘmi̯ɘn twəstəq bɑwərmɑldəq qɑrəm-qɑtənɑs ʒɑsɑwlɑrə təjɘs/

Barlıq adamdar tomısınan azat jäni qadır-qasıyite min koqıqtarı ting buolıp dunıyigi kilidi. Adamdarġa aqıl-parasat, ar-uojdan birelgin, suondıqtan uolar ber-beremin twıstıq, bawırmaldıq qarım-qatınas jasawları tıyes.

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Re: How would you romanize Kazakh?

Post by qwed117 »

gokupwned5 wrote:
05 May 2020 18:09
/p b t d (tɕ) k g q ɢ/ <p b t d (ç) k g q ġ>
/f v s~θ z~ð ʃ ʒ (ɕ x) h/ <f v s z ş j (ś x) h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/r l j w/ <r l y w>
-RTR: /æ ɘ ʉ i̯ɘ y̯ʉ/ <ä e u i iu>
+RTR: /ɑ ə ʊ u̯ʊ/ <a ı o uo>

/bɑrləq ɑdɑmdɑr tʊməsənɑn ɑzɑt ʒæni̯ɘ qɑdɘr-qɑsəji̯ɘtɘ mi̯ɘn kʊqəqtɑrə ti̯ɘŋ bu̯ʊləp dʉnəji̯ɘgi̯ɘ ki̯ɘli̯ɘdi̯ɘ ɑdɑmdɑrɢɑ ɑqəlpɑrɑsɑt ɑru̯ʊʒdɑn bi̯ɘrɘlgi̯ɘn su̯ʊndəqtɑn u̯ʊlɑr bɘrbɘrɘmi̯ɘn twəstəq bɑwərmɑldəq qɑrəm-qɑtənɑs ʒɑsɑwlɑrə təjɘs/

Barlıq adamdar tomısınan azat jäni qadır-qasıyite min koqıqtarı ting buolıp dunıyigi kilidi. Adamdarġa aqıl-parasat, ar-uojdan birelgin, suondıqtan uolar ber-beremin twıstıq, bawırmaldıq qarım-qatınas jasawları tıyes.
Based on this, I would go for something like this just to avoid diacritics

/p b t d (tɕ) k g q ɢ/ <p b t d (ç) k g q gq>
/f v s~θ z~ð ʃ ʒ (ɕ x) h/ <f v s z sh zh (x kh) h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/r l j w/ <r l y w>
-RTR: /æ ɘ ʉ i̯ɘ y̯ʉ/ <ai ei ui ie iu>
+RTR: /ɑ ə ʊ u̯ʊ/ <a e o u>

/bɑrləq ɑdɑmdɑr tʊməsənɑn ɑzɑt ʒæni̯ɘ qɑdɘr-qɑsəji̯ɘtɘ mi̯ɘn kʊqəqtɑrə ti̯ɘŋ bu̯ʊləp dʉnəji̯ɘgi̯ɘ ki̯ɘli̯ɘdi̯ɘ ɑdɑmdɑrɢɑ ɑqəlpɑrɑsɑt ɑru̯ʊʒdɑn bi̯ɘrɘlgi̯ɘn su̯ʊndəqtɑn u̯ʊlɑr bɘrbɘrɘmi̯ɘn twəstəq bɑwərmɑldəq qɑrəm-qɑtənɑs ʒɑsɑwlɑrə təjɘs/

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