Languages with interesting phonotactics

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Pabappa
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Pabappa »

okay thank you all for the replies. i did find one more thing .... an evident diminutive process that results in more words with this pattern...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kunkku .... possibly from kuningas, but potentially a secondary loan from Swedish or another language
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kumppari .... made of originally foreign morphemes, but clearly a novel coinage since the loans are from different sources.
https://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/pimppa .... baby talk, so likely of recent origin. possibly a variant of pimpsa

possibly different is
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tamppu less likely than the others to be a diminutive, but its not even in the Finnish wiktionary so who knows?

The last word is the best example of the four words that hints at a true native word stock, which along with tarttua (and I would certainly count varttua too) leads me to believe that there is probably a core of native vocabulary to which the loans were added. It makes sense to me that the only allowed triplets are in this pattern of a sonorant followed by a geminate stop, as if the sonorant really belonged to the preceding vowel as in the nearby Baltic languages and earlier stages of Slavic. Im not sure which family influenced the other, or if that may be just a coincidence after all. Likewise, Im aware of three consonants lengths in Estonian and some other Finnic languages, as well as in Sámi. It even reminds me of Basque, which we believe went through a stage in which the traditionally voiced and voiceless stops were almost in complementary distribution, but could contrast between vowels and, interestingly enough, also after sonorants.

In fact, my original interest in this was to find a precedent for reconstructing Old Basque without the voicing distinction, and just saying that it was fortis/lenis, meaning the consonant inventory of Old Basque could be reduced to just nine, far less than one finds in a typical European language. But that was a while ago, and I really just asked this question for its own sake, since I find Uralic languages interesting in general. So thanks again for all your help.
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Omzinesý
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Omzinesý »

Pabappa wrote: 18 May 2021 14:44 okay thank you all for the replies. i did find one more thing .... an evident diminutive process that results in more words with this pattern...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kunkku .... possibly from kuningas, but potentially a secondary loan from Swedish or another language
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kumppari .... made of originally foreign morphemes, but clearly a novel coinage since the loans are from different sources.
That is a relatively productive slang-ish way of shortening compuonds or other long words.

"intiaanit ja lännenmiehet" = "inkkarit ja länkkärit"
'indians and cowboys/settlers/gringos (isn't there really a word for this in English)'
Pabappa wrote: 18 May 2021 14:44 possibly different is
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tamppu less likely than the others to be a diminutive, but its not even in the Finnish wiktionary so who knows?
Never heard. Maybe an old out-of-use dialectal word or just a typo. Kielitoimiston sanakirja does not recognize it either.

"Varttua" probably derives from "varsi" (varte-)
Partitive of "varsi" is "vart-ta"
Pabappa wrote: 18 May 2021 14:44 It makes sense to me that the only allowed triplets are in this pattern of a sonorant followed by a geminate stop, as if the sonorant really belonged to the preceding vowel as in the nearby Baltic languages and earlier stages of Slavic.
A good point!
If I remember correctly, voiceless stops in Latvian/Lithuanian are pronounced (phonetically) long. That could be why Finnic borrows voiced stops (phonemically) geminated in that environment.
The same though holds for Swedish too in that environment.

It's hard to say at which point those clusters appear in Finnic, but I think they first appear through loan words and then also in native vocabulary by elision of vowels.
That is such late development though that the only info it gives on Basque is that such clusters can appear.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Vlürch
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Vlürch »

Omzinesý wrote: 19 May 2021 22:49Never heard.
Same.
Omzinesý wrote: 19 May 2021 22:49It's hard to say at which point those clusters appear in Finnic, but I think they first appear through loan words and then also in native vocabulary by elision of vowels.
A distinction between /rt/ and /rtt/ existed already in Proto-Uralic according to at least Starostin's and Sammallahti's reconstructions, not sure about others right now. At least Starostin's has /*rkk/ and /*ĺkk/ as well, but only in a few words. If only all Uralic languages didn't have 99.99% of their vocabulary being completely different from one another, these questions might not even exist.😔 But then again, mysteries are interesting... and good fodder for conlanging...
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Xonen »

Vlürch wrote: 21 May 2021 02:21
Omzinesý wrote: 19 May 2021 22:49Never heard.
Same.
Omzinesý wrote: 19 May 2021 22:49It's hard to say at which point those clusters appear in Finnic, but I think they first appear through loan words and then also in native vocabulary by elision of vowels.
A distinction between /rt/ and /rtt/ existed already in Proto-Uralic according to at least Starostin's and Sammallahti's reconstructions
As far as I understand, Sammallahti's reconstructions are rather out of date and Starostin is widely considered... unreliable, to say the least. Recommend crystal of sodium chloride.
teotlxixtli
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by teotlxixtli »

I believe I read somewhere about an Australian Aboriginal language that requires a coda consonant but I couldn’t find anything when I searched with those terms.
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Pabappa
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Pabappa »

it's Arrernte.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrernte_ ... onotactics

I leave it up to you to decide if the analysis is correct or not .... knowing the details is important.
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Nortaneous »

teotlxixtli wrote: 16 Jun 2021 08:29 I believe I read somewhere about an Australian Aboriginal language that requires a coda consonant but I couldn’t find anything when I searched with those terms.
There are plenty of languages that require coda consonants - Aslian requires word codas and English at one point required codas in stressed syllables (and wasn't happy about V-final words)
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by teotlxixtli »

Nortaneous wrote: 20 Jun 2021 18:03
teotlxixtli wrote: 16 Jun 2021 08:29 I believe I read somewhere about an Australian Aboriginal language that requires a coda consonant but I couldn’t find anything when I searched with those terms.
There are plenty of languages that require coda consonants - Aslian requires word codas and English at one point required codas in stressed syllables (and wasn't happy about V-final words)
I hadn’t read about those languages before. They have some other cool features like stop clusters at the beginning of a word and Jah Hut’s vowel inventory is pretty full too
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Tsugar »

Mandarin heavily uses disyllabic words to the extent that a fluent speaker neng fenbie butong de ci zhiyong mei dai fuhao de hanyu pinyin and compounds of two disyllabic words collapse into one disyllabic word e.g Oumeng from Ouzhou lianmeng
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by mister »

Pabappa wrote: 18 May 2021 14:44
Pabappa wrote: 18 May 2021 14:44 It makes sense to me that the only allowed triplets are in this pattern of a sonorant followed by a geminate stop, as if the sonorant really belonged to the preceding vowel as in the nearby Baltic languages and earlier stages of Slavic.
A good point!
If I remember correctly, voiceless stops in Latvian/Lithuanian are pronounced (phonetically) long. That could be why Finnic borrows voiced stops (phonemically) geminated in that environment.
The same though holds for Swedish too in that environment.
AFAIK, consonants between unstressed syllables undergo phonetic lengthening in Latvian. Dunno about Lithuanian; I have tried saying a few words with a plethora of voiceless consonants and they all seem to have the same length to me.

The Latvian example is a pretty cool instance of allophony imo because it is one of the only cases of secondary stress-related phenomena in the language. Otherwise all syllables other than the initial one are somewhat shorter and more prone to reduction (though the reduction is not as prominent as it is in Lithuanian).
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