English Orthography Reform

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Zé do Rock
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Lao Kou wrote: 22 Jul 2018 14:30 Forgive me, but I don't see what any of this has to do with reforming English spelling, let alone contending with Esperanto's apparent flaws. I guess the moderators have a higher threshold of pain than I, probably rightly so (so, shut up, Lao Kou, and don't read the thread), but might we split the thread? This does not strike me as a robust debate.
RE

Intaum, tu é a favor o contra reformar a ortografia inglish, i si a favor, ki tipu di reforma tu aprovaria?

RITE

So ar u for or agenst reforming inglishe spelling, and if in favor, wat tipe of reform would u aprove of?
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Dormouse559 »

Zé, while nothing in our rules explicitly requires you to give traditionally spelled English versions of things you write in other languages/orthographies, it is a widely followed custom on this board. This makes communication easier for people who don't speak a given language or would rather not deal with new spellings. The main exceptions to this custom are threads/forums dedicated to the use of specific languages or writing systems. This is not one of those threads, so please include a traditionally spelled English version of what you write here and in other similar threads. If you want to write without translation in your English-based conlang — or any of your others — feel free to create a thread for it in the Conlangs forum.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Lao Kou »

Zé do Rock wrote: 23 Jul 2018 00:24RITE
So ar u for or agenst reforming inglishe spelling, and if in favor, wat tipe of reform would u aprove of?
"Are you for or agin us?" puts it in such dire terms. I'm not diametrically opposed to reform an sich (though the term "updating" sounds a little less authoritarian than "reform"). But to rehash the same ol' issues: there are at least five countries/communities who claim English as their L1 -- whose standard will you, O Grand One (or O Grand TESS), choose as the standard for placing those vowels, or make a mishmash of standards, making everyone cranky? The Webster standards (?) for American spelling, I guess when English spelling was still in flux, sets us apart from the rest of the Commonwealth in terms of spelling (colour/color; centre/center) -- fortunately, these aren't/weren't cataclysmic changes in the end, thanks to Empire -- but it's an unnecessary dual standard.)

Rechtschreibreform: you lose a correctly-spelling generation when you do that, with even minor tweaking. The changes you propose are rather drastic, by comparison.

<aprove> but not <apruve>, really? If you want to opine on English spelling foibles, it would be more convincing if you pronounced it correctly.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Dormouse559 wrote: 23 Jul 2018 01:01 Zé, while nothing in our rules explicitly requires you to give traditionally spelled English versions of things you write in other languages/orthographies, it is a widely followed custom on this board. This makes communication easier for people who don't speak a given language or would rather not deal with new spellings. The main exceptions to this custom are threads/forums dedicated to the use of specific languages or writing systems. This is not one of those threads, so please include a traditionally spelled English version of what you write here and in other similar threads. If you want to write without translation in your English-based conlang — or any of your others — feel free to create a thread for it in the Conlangs forum.
Actually (actuellic), if (gif) u (thou) considder (consideras) misspellings (misspelingan) as (eallswa) dangerus (dangereux) for inglish (aenglisc) lerners (leorniare)(?), i (ic) shouldnt (sceolde nought) translate (translater) the text (textus) into modern (moderne) inglish (aenglisc), i (ic) should (sceolde) translate (translater) it (hit) into aenglisc, besides latin and grek (graikos) elements (elementa) should (sceolde) be (beon) speld (spellad) in propper (proprius) latin and grek (graikos). After (aefter) all (eall), moddern (moderne) inglish (aenglisc) is nought anything (aenigthing) else (elles) than an endless (endelaes) ro (rowan) of misspellings (misspelingan) put (putten) in the world (woruld) by (be) language hooligans like (gelic) me (sorry for the lak of macrons and the gramatical mistakes).

In case u prefer my texts translated into this endless ro of misspellings (sum peeple call it "evolution") calld moddern inglish (at the moment):

I rite (write) my books, i rite (write) articles for "seerius" (serious) newspapers, eeven (even) conservativ (conservative) newspapers, i rite (write) my letters and e-males (e-mails) to authoritys (authorities), i rite (write) in forums, in deutshe (german), brazilian, inglish (english), all (eall) in reformd (reformed) spelling, and altho (although) menny (many) of the reeders (readers) hav (have) very little linguistic tallent (talent), i'v (i've) nevver (never) got a letter bak (back) on the grounds that it is not in propper (proper) deutshe (german), portugaliano (portuguese), or watevver (whatever) the language. No one has evver (ever) required a "translation" into the "propper" language, as far as i can remember. Now i'm heer (here) in a group visited by linguists and language nerds that studdy (study) languages that hav (have) very exotic names, grammar and riting (writing) sistems (systems), and invent languages with stil (still) mor (more) exotic names, and u (you) feel (and maybe uthers (others) like u (you)) that u (you) hav (have) to "protect" them - eeven (even) if thay no (know) words like 'conlang', utherwise (otherwise) thay wouldnt find this forum, a word wich (which) i guess the grate (great) majority of the public dusnt (does not) no (know). As u (you) mite (might) hav (have) seen in my reecent (recent) posts, in reecent (recent) yeers (years) i got a sort of hatred agenst (against) this word "protect", becaus (because) it always meens (means) a new prohibition, and eeven (even) dictatorships and democorships make large use of it - thare (there) is always sum (some) peeple (people) who hav (have) to be protected (of corse (course) i dont meen (mean) with it that this is a dictatorship heer (here)). We gane (gain) one gram of "safety" and pay the price of one kilogram freedom.

I dont think that "protecting" inglish (english) lerners (learners) is a real service for them. I pronounced sum (some) words - like 'brother', for wich (which) i used to say /brOD@r/ - the rong (wrong) way for menny (many) yeers (years) in my life becaus (because) of the spelling, and i just found that out wen (when) i joind (joined) spelling reform groups and saw the words representing the real pronunciation. I taut (taught) inglish (english) in quite a few cuntrys (countries), and i had contact with menny (many) thousands of peeple (people) speeking (speaking) inglish (english) as a seccond (second) language, and menny (many) pronounced words the rong (wrong) way becaus (because) the spelling was misleeding (misleading). The fact is, it is eesy (easy) to get litrature (literature) in inglish (english), and u (you) just need an internet conection (connection) to reed (read) billions of texts in inglish (english), and u (you) can reed (read) menny (many) thousands of posts in this forum ritten (written) in TS: thare (there) is no lak (lack) of it. But it is much harder to get access to the spoken language, billions of peeple (people) nevver (never) had a single time contact with real inglish (english) speekers (speakers). And eeven (even) if u (you) do, it dusnt (does not) meen (mean) u'l (you'll) lern (learn) the rite (right) pronunciation: i guess i herd (heard) the word "brother" thousands of times, but since my brane (brain) has only /a/ in its basic database and no /V/ and /A/, i herd (heard) the USano (american) pronunciation of 'job' /dZA:b/ with /A/ as sum (some) funny variation of the sound /O/ (or /a/, as u like), and the same aplied for 'brother', eeven (even) if this word has an /V/ and not an /A/. The same aplies (applies) for menny (many) foreners (foreigners) in Brazil, who spend deccades (decades) in the cuntry (country) and dont no (know) that for instance a final unstressd (unstressed) O is an /u/ - it's ritten (written) O, isnt it? And thay'd (they'd) get rid of thare (their) foren (foreign) accent if the spelling had an /u/.

Since moast (most) words remane (remain) the same in HS (and eeven (even) in RITE), and my poasts (posts) ar (are) offen (often) rather long, at leest (least) as long as we talk about the "filosofical" (philosophical) aspects of my reformd (reformed) spelling or conlangs, i thaut (thought) it would be better if i just translated the words (inside the text) that ar (are) difrent (different) in my spelling. Sumtimes (sometimes) i mite (might) forget to translate one or anuther (another) word becaus (because) i'm too used to see them speld (spelled) that way, but if sum-one (someone) dusnt (does not) understand a word like 'hav' or 'peeple', i can translate them into "normal inglish": 'hav' meens (means) 'have', and 'peeple' meen (means) 'people'.

And a last question: do i hav (have) to translate less common spellings like 'thru' and 'tho' too, eeven (even) if thay (they) ar (are) found in dictionarys (dictionaries)? Sum (some) peeple (people) call them misspellings, uthers (others) call it evolution (at leest (least) for the ones that came to stay). And wat (what) about a word like 'u' for 'you', wich (which) is not found in the dictionarys (dictionaries) i hav (have), but found in hundreds of millions of texts, especialy in texting? Should i translate them too?
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Dormouse559 »

Zé do Rock wrote: 23 Jul 2018 23:20 […]
When you write in a conlang, alternative orthography or non-English language on a forum or thread not specifically dedicated to the use of said system, kindly include a traditionally spelled English translation, as a courtesy to your fellow forum members. There is no reason to abandon your block format. You can add a block for an English translation.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Lao Kou wrote: 23 Jul 2018 01:53
Zé do Rock wrote: 23 Jul 2018 00:24RITE
So ar u for or agenst reforming inglishe spelling, and if in favor, wat tipe of reform would u aprove of?
"Are you for or agin us?" puts it in such dire terms. I'm not diametrically opposed to reform an sich (though the term "updating" sounds a little less authoritarian than "reform"). But to rehash the same ol' issues: there are at least five countries/communities who claim English as their L1 -- whose standard will you, O Grand One (or O Grand TESS), choose as the standard for placing those vowels, or make a mishmash of standards, making everyone cranky? The Webster standards (?) for American spelling, I guess when English spelling was still in flux, sets us apart from the rest of the Commonwealth in terms of spelling (colour/color; centre/center) -- fortunately, these aren't/weren't cataclysmic changes in the end, thanks to Empire -- but it's an unnecessary dual standard.)

Rechtschreibreform: you lose a correctly-spelling generation when you do that, with even minor tweaking. The changes you propose are rather drastic, by comparison.

<aprove> but not <apruve>, really? If you want to opine on English spelling foibles, it would be more convincing if you pronounced it correctly.
EU

Mi no prezidento Bush, "o vu pro nu o vu contra nu". In Deutshland 50% du populacion is pro reform, ma solo 20% was pro el implementee reform. E wen mi cuestionou la pople si lis vole "fuchs" e "wachs" reformee tu "fux" e "wax", plus o minus 80% was pro lu. So lu depende du reform...

TESS ha membris na toto svet, e nixi ha sei la House Stile funcciona no pro lis. Lis ali acorda dat ai do standard. No pok australis pro exemplo spik a dialecto dat is similare tu cockney, ma lu no wat lis profesa na scol, et is no como niusis spik. Meme si multi sei "noit" pro "night", lis ali acorda ki lu shalau bi "nite" (o "niet", "nít" o wat oni uza tu reprezenta /nait/).

Colour/color, etc: Lu realik a nenesesitale doble standard, e coze dat nu scrive 'cullor, program, center'. Dat funcciona pro nord amerikis et oso pro la Commonwelth.

Mai wunschdeutsch ("wishu-deutsh", favorito deutsh) was la rezultu de plebisitos in mai shou lezus, among 20 000 pople. Lu change no multu, ma lu elimina H's et E's ki longize la vocal - oni nesesita no lus, lorske corto vocales is fologee bai doble consonantes. E sted having 54 coma reglas as la tradicional ortografie (ki meme mouste profesis sabou no) o 9 as dopo la reform, ai no reglas - oni uza comas segon su sentu, ma bes a mau conciens. Nau mi startou con ultradoitsh, e dat is a rada fonetico sistem. No poco jurnales scrivou dat auminu dat reform vou bi consistent...

La problema co la neu deutsh ortografie reforma was ki lu was super neconsistent: pro exemplo, lis ha sei "Vamos deutshiz el autlandiano vordes A, B, C, ma no la vordes D, E, F, e la vordes G, H et I can bi deutshizee, ma lus mus no". E si oni mus look a longo vord lista tu cheke si la vord can, mus o can no bi deutshizee, lu no realik a simplizacion. La sentensa ki lis cuotou moustli de mi was: "Solo deutshe ciensis ha reusi faz a tale complicato simplizacion."

Aprove - mi suponau no dat yu pronunse la vord falsli, solo coze yu scrive lu con O. La House Stile solo trata la corto vocales a, e, i, o, u e la longo vocales a, e, i, o, u. /u:/ is non unu de lus, so lu stei as lu is. In RITE lu stan 'apruve', ma mi encora na letra E, wen mi veni tu U, lu va bin 'apruve'.


ENGLISH (the spell-chequer said the text does knot have any miss takes)

Eye am knot president Bush, "either ewe are four us or ewe are against us". In Germany, 50% of the population are four a reform, butt only 20% were four the implemented reform. And when eye asked people whether they wood like two have "fuchs" and "wachs" reformed too "fux" (fox) and "wax" (wax), moor ore less 80% were four it. Sew it depends of the reform...

TESS has members from all over the world, and know won has said that the House Stile does knot work four them (altho the ones that have own schemes, mostly much moor phonetic, think the solution should bee a different won). They all agree that there 2 standards. Quite a few australians for instance speak a dialect that is similar to cockney, butt this is knot what is taught in school, and this is knot what newsreaders speak. Even if many say "noit" four "night", they all agree that it should be "nite" (or "niet", "nít" or whatever they use to represent /nait/).

It is in deed an unnecessary dual standard, witch is why wee spell cullor, program, center. Works four the north americans and the commonwealth two.

My wunschdeutsch (wish-german, favorite german) was the result of "referendums" in my show readings, among 20 000 people. It does knot change much, butt it does take H's and E's that make the vowel long - they're knot needed, since short vowels are followed bye double consonants. And instead of having 54 comma rules as in traditional spelling (witch even most teachers didnt no) or 9 rules as after the reform, there are know rules for it - yew use the commas bye feeling, as yew have all ways done, butt without a bad conscience. Now eye started with ultradoitsh, and that's a rather phonetic system. Quite a few newspapers wrote that at least my reform would be consistent...

The problem with the knew german spelling reform was that it was very inconsistent: four instance, they said "let's germanize the lonewords A, B and C, butt knot the words D, E, F, and the words G, H and I can bee germanized, butt don't have two". And if ewe have too look at a long list of words two cheque if the word can, must or cant bee germanized, it is really knot a simplification. The sentence they quoted most often from me was: "Only german scientists managed two make such a complicated simplification".

Aprove - eye wood knot assume yew pronounce the word the wrong weigh, just bee cause yew spell it with O. The House Stile only treats the short vowels a, e, i, o, u and the long vowels a, e, i, o, u. /u:/ is nun of them (short U is /V/, long U is /ju:/), so it remains as it is. In RITE it bee comes 'apruve', but eye am still at the letter E, when eye cum two U it will bee 'apruve'.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Salmoneus »

OK, since all his posts are trolling, and the trolling-to-content quotient is increasing, at what point can we just ban him?
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Xonen »

Zé do Rock wrote: 24 Jul 2018 11:07[blatant trolling]
I hate it when I step in to provide someone some benefit of the doubt and assumption of good faith and whatnot, and then they immediately proceed to prove me wrong. [:S]

So yeah. Drop it or get off the board.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Dormouse559 wrote: 23 Jul 2018 23:56
Zé do Rock wrote: 23 Jul 2018 23:20 […]
When you write in a conlang, alternative orthography or non-English language on a forum or thread not specifically dedicated to the use of said system, kindly include a traditionally spelled English translation, as a courtesy to your fellow forum members. There is no reason to abandon your block format. You can add a block for an English translation.
RE

3 bloks zu shraiben is aine ganze menge, noch dazu wenn ich so lange messages shraib. i'l restructure the bloks.

ENGLISH

To write 3 bloks is too much, especially in the long messages i've been posting. I'll restructure the blocks.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Salmoneus wrote: 24 Jul 2018 12:46 OK, since all his posts are trolling, and the trolling-to-content quotient is increasing, at what point can we just ban him?
EU

Mi scriv in reformat ortografie od mi was 15, in ale situaciones (exepto na scol) e somi laike lu, somi no, ma mi can no memore ki somi ha sei lu was troling. E la pople ki laicou no was confrontee co super plu difisile variantus ki wat mi uzou hir til nau - in tale cazos mi reduse la linguistik acrobatie tu mai maxi meki reform, dat in inglishe vou bi la house stile, e nixi mo reclam. Ma hir pople - interesee tu conlanges, normali super plu difisile de comprend - ja ha problemas co dat. Difisile tu comprend, ma si dat is la cazo mi va mus adapta tu lu.

Wat abaut George B. Shaw, ki investou multi moni pro la developu de su shavian alfabet, e - oni sei - scrivou 'ghoti' pro 'fish' - dat was oso troling?

ENGLISH

I write in reformed spelling (in the languages i know) since i was 15, in all situations except in school, and some people like it, some dont, but i cant remember having heard that it was a sort of trolling. And the people who didnt like it were confronted with much harder versions than what i've been using here so far - in such cases i reduce the linguistic acrobatics to my softest version - that would be the house stile in english - and nobody complains anymore. But here people - interested in conlangs, mostly much harder to understand - have already problems with that. For me this is not easy to understand, but since it seems to be a fact, i'll try to adapt to it as best as i can.

How about George B. Shaw, who invested a lot of munny for the devellopment of his shavian alphabet, and - reportedly - wrote 'ghoti' for 'fish' - was that trolling too? Well, somehow it was, but provoking people to make them make a u-turn in their thinking cant be that bad, in my opinion. Thats what innovative artists usually do.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

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Zé do Rock wrote: 24 Jul 2018 22:10I write in reformed spelling (in the languages i know) since i was 15, in all situations except in school, and some people like it, some dont, but i cant remember having heard that it was a sort of trolling.
For what it's worth, I don't think spelling in a reformed orthography, as such, counts as trolling. Deliberately misspelling everything after a mod politely asks you to include a plain English transcritpion in your posts, however, does.

And the people who didnt like it were confronted with much harder versions than what i've been using here so far - in such cases i reduce the linguistic acrobatics to my softest version - that would be the house stile in english - and nobody complains anymore. But here people - interested in conlangs, mostly much harder to understand - have already problems with that. For me this is not easy to understand, but since it seems to be a fact, i'll try to adapt to it as best as i can.
Well, I don't think most people here would appreciate someone posting solely in their conlangs without providing English translations, either.

How about George B. Shaw, who invested a lot of munny for the devellopment of his shavian alphabet, and - reportedly - wrote 'ghoti' for 'fish' - was that trolling too?
Yes it was, and as Zompist puts it, "a word which illustrates only Shaw's wiseacre ignorance". Seriously, that page should be required reading for everyone interested in this subject (even if I'm not quite sure why he thinks <ghoti> can only be pronounced like goatee and not go-tie, but that's a minor point).

Well, somehow it was, but provoking people to make them make a u-turn in their thinking cant be that bad, in my opinion. Thats what innovative artists usually do.
Ignorant arrogance tends to provoke people, yes, but that's all it will accomplish. At least Shaw was trying to be somewhat funny while he was at it, but even then, I'd probably tell him to keep his trolling off this board as well. Innovative artist or not, everyone plays by the same rules here.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Xonen wrote: 25 Jul 2018 13:40
Yes it was, and as Zompist puts it, "a word which illustrates only Shaw's wiseacre ignorance". Seriously, that page should be required reading for everyone interested in this subject (even if I'm not quite sure why he thinks <ghoti> can only be pronounced like goatee and not go-tie, but that's a minor point).
RE

Jimagina ke Shaw savè ke lee lettra podè pas etre prononsee com sa, dan la pozicion ou el etè. Creo que fué mas una question de retoric. Mais eu num ta bem seguru ki 85% das palavra pode se pronunciada sertu nu ingleis, eu uma veis fis uma contage, i, claru, é mais faciu pronunciar ingleis ki screver, mais 85% é um bocadu... und wi auch imma, du kannst die aussprache richtig hinkrigen, aba du waisst ni ob du richtig bist, wenn du's aussprichst.

EN

I imagine that Shaw knew that these letters cant be pronounced that way, in the position that they are. I guess it was rather a matter of rhetorics. But i'm not quite sure that 85% of the words can be pronounced correctly in english, once i made a counting, and, of course, it is easier to pronounce english than to spell it, but 85% is a lot... and anyway you can get the pronunciation right, but you never know if you're right or not, when you pronounce them.


Well, somehow it was, but provoking people to make them make a u-turn in their thinking cant be that bad, in my opinion. Thats what innovative artists usually do.
Ignorant arrogance tends to provoke people, yes, but that's all it will accomplish. At least Shaw was trying to be somewhat funny while he was at it, but even then, I'd probably tell him to keep his trolling off this board as well. Innovative artist or not, everyone plays by the same rules here.
[/quote]

RE

and theodore rooselvelt (together with the wite house by the beginning of the last century) would hav his problems too...

EN

and theodore rooselvelt (together with the white house by the beginning of the last century) would have his problems too...
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by eldin raigmore »

I really object to pronouncing “white” as “wight”, as if every English speaker has the “which witch” merger, or those who don’t are somehow inferior or behind the times.
So I could be offended, if I so chose, with the idea of spelling that color’s name as “wite”.

If your spelling reform were undertaken by a non-rhotic speaker, would many <r> graphemes be omitted?
Would it be mandatory to pronounce “d’yer make’er” the same as “Jamaica”?

We can’t reform English spelling to match English pronunciation, until we’ve settled on a single pronunciation for every English word, and forced all other accents of English out of existence.

That sounds a lot more (historical, not modern) French than English, to me.

It’s just another way to get most English speakers angry at most of the rest.

I advise anyone attempting to reform English spelling to just drop it.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Xonen »

eldin raigmore wrote: 26 Jul 2018 04:50 I really object to pronouncing “white” as “wight”, as if every English speaker has the “which witch” merger, or those who don’t are somehow inferior or behind the times.
Uh... someone pronouncing "white" and "wight" the same implies neither of those things. Even declaring that to be the standard pronunciation implies neither of those things. If anything, the suggestion that something being non-standard automatically makes it "inferior or behind the times" is itself kind of offensive. [:S] Granted, some people do think so, but y'know, prescriptivists gonna prescriptivize, and we ain't letting them get to us now, so why should we start in the event of a reform? (And while we're at it, you seem to be implying that "white" and "wight" have the same vowel, so by your own logic, wouldn't that be offensive to people who don't merge them? :wat:)

So I could be offended, if I so chose, with the idea of spelling that color’s name as “wite”.
Well, if you're going to choose to be offended based on a complete non sequitur, that's kind of your own problem.

We can’t reform English spelling to match English pronunciation, until we’ve settled on a single pronunciation for every English word, and forced all other accents of English out of existence.
Right, because that's what's been done with all languages with phonemic orthographies.

That sounds a lot more (historical, not modern) French than English, to me.
Yeah, the history of prescriptivism in French is pretty extreme, but even they didn't fully succeed in wiping out all regional dialects. And of course, the purpose was never to enforce a phonemic orthography (which French doesn't have to begin with, even if spelling-to-sound correspondences are more regular than in English); my understaning is that it was more about some weird nationalistic obsession with national "unity" that required everyone to speak the same way.

I advise anyone attempting to reform English spelling to just drop it.
I advise anyone attempting to argue the subject either way to do some reading on it. Plenty of languages have managed to gain more or less phonemic or at least regular orthographies without eradicating all dialectal variation. You can have a standard pronunciation that you use in formal contexts but keep speaking your native dialects otherwise (i.e. diglossia), or you can have a diaphonemic orthography which allows for multiple pronunciations, but in a regular way. The latter of which is kind of what English already does, it would just take some fairly minor modifications to get fully there.

Then again (as I'm sure I've explained a number of times on this board already), reading about spelling reforms in other languages can also teach you about how difficult it is to implement them, even for fairly minor stuff such as removing a few circumflexes. A full reform of English spelling is, in that sense, a totally unrealistic pipe dream. But as a thought experiment, I see nothing wrong with it.

And linguistic thought experiments are kind of what this board is all about, so the hostility some of its members have towards this particular topic is something I find rather baffling. If you're not interested in the subject, nobody's forcing you to read this thread, people.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

eldin raigmore wrote: 26 Jul 2018 04:50 I really object to pronouncing “white” as “wight”, as if every English speaker has the “which witch” merger, or those who don’t are somehow inferior or behind the times.
So I could be offended, if I so chose, with the idea of spelling that color’s name as “wite”.
EU

In Norde Deutshland lis sei 'ik' pro 'mi', in Centro Deutshland lis sei 'isch' /iS/, in Sude Deutshland 'i' /i:/. Lis reclam abaut la facto ki la deutshis scriv 'ich'? No, coze la standard pronunciacion in hochdeutsh (hai deutsh) is /ic/, et 'ich' is la corect ortografie pro dat. Et oni canau sei ki deutshe hav a plus o minu reglar ortografie. Italiano hav oso multi dialectos, super diferente dialectos, e meme so lis hav a standard lingua, e wen yu veni tu Italia, dat is wat lis va spik co yu, e yu va sei, grand, oni scriv as oni spik et oni spik as oni scriv. La lombardis e sicilis reclama ki standard italiano kere non abaut su dialectos? No, coz un ding is standard lingua, un otru is a dialect.

La diferens in inglish is dat ai 2 standardes, la british e la nordamerican. La nordamericano funcciona pro Nordamerica, la britishu funcciona pro la Commonwelth (exepto Canada, clar).

La facto ki somi sei /hwOt/ e /hwai/ pro 'what' e 'why' is a bit diferent, lorske dat is no dialect, meme si wen i cuestiona pople si lis hav audi /hwOt/ e /hwai/, nepoco cuestiona si dat is a dialect. Somi, specialik in USA, lernou ki /hw/ is la corecto manera tu pronunse lu e fa so. Mi had nowen audi lu in scol, mas in California, dopo mi cruzou 7 US-statos bai autostop, mi hav audi lu in el unale vez. Mi cuestionou la conducto si dat was a tipe de dialect, e lo ha sei lu is no - lo was a profeso, e fazou al efortu tu spik "corectli". Mouste diccionaris (incluzive la diccionaris ki tradui de e tu otre linguas) sei dat is is simpli /w/, ma pro exemplo Merriam Webster inclui /hw/ as a posible pronunciacion. Eniwei dat is la fenomen af a minoritee, e minoritees shalau bi respectee, ma si linguas alwen considerau ale minoritees wen lus changou (ou changou no) su ortografie, el inglish e deutshis scrivau encor in stos dialectos af el oude germanico tribus, et in France, Italia et Espania lis scrivau in latin, o proto-latin, etc. Linguas e scrivu sistemas is a materia de consens, et oni solo finde consens in majoritees.

In el end af al, nixi sei yu como yu shal spik o scriv, yu can fa como yu laik (exept in linguistico forumes, lu sim, tam yu mus da a consensu scrivu, o scrive diferentli ma da a trauduicion na consensu scrivu). Normali reformas solo forse profesis e stato werkis tu uza la same scrivu.


EN

In Northern Germany they say 'ik' for 'I', in Central Germany they say 'isch' /iS/, in Southern Germany 'i' /i:/. Do they all complain about the fact that german spells 'ich'? No, because the standard pronunciation in High German is /ic/, and 'ich' is the correct spelling for it. And one could say that german has a fairly regular spelling. Italian has many dialects too, very different dialects, and still they have a standard language, and when you come to Italy, thats what they will speak with you, and you'll say, great, you spell as you speak and you speak as you spell. Do lombardians or sicilians complain that standard italian doesnt cater for their dialects? No, because one thing is a standard language, something else is a dialect.

The difference in english is that there are two standards, the british and the american one. The american one works for North America, the british one works for the Commonwelth (except Canada, of course).

The fact that some people say /hwOt/ and /hwai/ for 'what' and 'why' is a bit different, since it is not dialect, although, when i ask people if they have heard /hwOt/ and /hwai/, quite a few ask "Is that a dialect?" Some people, especially in the USA, have learned that /hw/ is the correct way to pronounce it and do so. I had never heard it in school, but in California, after crossing 7 states hitchhiking, i heard it for the first time. I asked the driver if that feature is some kind of dialect, and he said it is not - he was a teacher, and made any possible effort to speak "correctly". Most dictionaries (including the dictionaries translating from and to other languages) say it is simply /w/, but Merriam Webster for instance includes /hw/ as a possible pronunciation. Anyway it is the phenomenon of a minority, and minorities should be respected, but if languages always considered all minorities when they changed (or didnt change) their spelling, the english and germans would still write in a system reflecting hundreds of dialects from the old germanic tribes, and in France, Italy and Spain they would write in latin, or proto-latin, etc. Language and writing systems are a matter of consensus, and you just find consensus with majorities.

And after all, nobody is telling you how to speak or to spell, you can do it the way you want (except in linguistic forums, it seems, there you have to provide at least a translation into the consensus spelling, if you do it). Usually reforms only force teachers and state officials to use the same language and spelling.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

Xonen wrote: 26 Jul 2018 11:47 Yeah, the history of prescriptivism in French is pretty extreme, but even they didn't fully succeed in wiping out all regional dialects. And of course, the purpose was never to enforce a phonemic orthography (which French doesn't have to begin with, even if spelling-to-sound correspondences are more regular than in English);
RE

Una foi je ha fai un contag: pra quen scrive franciano, la lingua no é mas facil qui inglish. Mas a diferens é grande pro ledor: im franciano waiss ma fast imma wi man ain wort ausspricht, one hundate musta zu lernen, und das kann ma fom inglishe nich sagen...

EN

Once i made a counting: for someone who writes in french, the language isnt easier than english. But the difference is big for the reader: in french you almost always know how to pronounce a word you read, without learning hundreds of patterns, and you cant say that of english...
Then again (as I'm sure I've explained a number of times on this board already), reading about spelling reforms in other languages can also teach you about how difficult it is to implement them, even for fairly minor stuff such as removing a few circumflexes. A full reform of English spelling is, in that sense, a totally unrealistic pipe dream. But as a thought experiment, I see nothing wrong with it.
RE

A radical reform is very unlikely in enny language, unless u hav a strongman in power with a political message and a cuntry in a moment ware evrything is changing, as Atatürk a century ago. En inglish è virtualmen impocible, parse cavec una reforma radical inglishe ne semblerai plu inglish. Y mesmo una reforma suave como la House Stile seria bene dificile de realizar, ya qui no ay un órgano concevido pra farlo, y mas qui 40 países tenerie qui star de acuerdo... a unica soluciaum seria uma reforma popular, comu é feitu em frazes comu "i luv u" o palabras comu 'overnite', 'nite', 'thru' (si bem ki essa ja seja mediu antig). Das probleem is das es nur bai ain par wörtan ferwendet wird, ni wird aine regel durchgehend für wörta derselben sorte ferwendet. Wel, sum of us in TESS do it and hope that it spreds...

EN

A radical reform is very unlikely in any language, unless you have a strongman in power with a political message and a country in a moment where everything is changing, as Atatürk a century ago. In english it is nearly impossible, because with a radical reform english wouldnt look like english anymore. And even a soft reform like the House Stile would be very difficult to get thru, because there is no body conceived to do it, and more than 40 countries would have to agree... the only way out would be popular reform, as it is done with "i luv u" or words like 'overnite', 'lite', 'thru' (even if this one is rather old). The only problem is that it gets stuck with a few words, never a rule is applied for all words of a certain type. Well, some of us in TESS do it and hope that it spreads...
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Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Keenir »

I was trying to read over the past {recent} posts of this thread, and something glaring came to mine eyes:
Zé do Rock wrote: 18 Jul 2018 02:46
Axiem wrote: 17 Jul 2018 17:41
HS
I'm brazili. Wen i say that the russki cappital should be calld Maskva in the whole world (braziliano portugaliano Moscou), as the russis call it, and that Norway should be calld Norge, as the norgis call it (brazilis call it Noruega), yu say i'm trying to brazilianize the world? Wat kind of sik logic is this?
Original name according to whom? I'm thinking of things like Taiwan, where the name of the place is contested, and picking one means picking sides in large geopolitical debates.
HS
Cuntries that dont use the roman alfabet ar named as the old colonial power calls it. If thare was no colonial power, take the inglishe name. As Taiwan doesnt hav a colonial past, it remanes as in inglish: Taiwan, and as a less used alternativ, Republic of China. If yu dont agree, try to modify the oficial inglish and i'l follow.
wait, China and Japan don't count as colonial powers?
Zé do Rock wrote: 22 Jul 2018 13:30 The House Stile isnt my creation, it is the result of a referendum in TESS, The English Spelling Society, ware i guess that mor than 95% of members ar inglishe nativ speekers from all over the world. So they ar alowd to make a campane for improving inglishe spelling, but not non nativ speekers? Wy the nativ speeking members chose a forener to be in thare comittee, was this a stupid thing to do? Wat about naijiris or malaysis, ar they alowd to criticize the inglishe language - or eeven to be activ for its reform - or only the cuntrys ware inglish is the only language?

I rote all my books in reformd deutsh (and "brazileis"), reforming spelling and sumtimes taking all grammar from the deutshe language (no gender, no cases, no conjugations), and i was nomminated by the deutshe president for the Prize of Inovation, and i wun sevral litrature prizes. Ar deutshis mor tollerant than anglis? Hard to imagin, since i rite in uther non linguistic forums (in inglishe language) and no one has problems with my spelling and my uther changes. I'd expect protest in a "forum for the usage of correct english", but in a forum about conlangs this dus sound strange to me.
could you please provide references and-or links to all these books and awards/societies that you keep mentioning?
Last edited by Keenir on 01 Aug 2018 23:56, edited 1 time in total.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

clawgrip wrote:

I'm sure it's been discussed endlessly, but a major sticking point that I mentioned but you failed to reply to is that any move toward a phonetic spelling necessarily begins to remove English's relative region-neutrality. Should caught and cot be merged? Should sword and sawed be merged? How do you determine which pronunciation should be the basis of the spelling?

REFORMEE

Com je ha ja di, la majoritee dee membris de la TESS è dacord ki ai 2 standard en inglish: southern british standard y general american. I num si pode reformar im areas ond eces 2 standard num taum de acordu, pur esu 'caught' pode perder u GH, ki nadi pronuncia mezmu, mas num si pode screver caught i cot da mezma maner, ja ki esu contradiria la pronúncia britanic - i de muintus americanus, mezmu ki talveis lis num sea maiorie. Dasselbe gilt für sword und sawed, ma kann si nich glaich sraiben wail USis, canadis und iris das R aussprechen, was wir tun können is das ferainfachen, wo baide ainferstanden sind: sord and sawd.

I'l talk about the advantages and disadvantages of spelling reform later, i stil want to cycle to the north. O momen je è na citad austrishe de Braunau, ou la Führer etee ne, ma je è pa la a côs de sa - staba simplement en mi camino. Um lugar legalzinhu, akie.

ENGLISH

As i had said before, most TESS members agree that there are 2 standards for english: southern british standard and general american. And you cant reform in areas where these two standards dont agree, which is why we can drop the GH in 'caught' (that nobody pronounces, except maybe for some scots in the highlands), but we cant merge both forms, since this would contradict the british pronunciation - and even the pronunciation of many americans, even if they're probably not a majority. The same applies for sword and sawed, we cant merge them becaus americans, canadians and the irish pronounce the R. What we can do is to simplify ware both standards agree: sord and sawd.

I'll talk later about the advantages and disadvantages of spelling reform, i still want to cycle to the north. At the moment i'm in the austrian city Braunau, where the Führer was born, but i'm not here because of that - it was just on my way. A nice place here.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by eldin raigmore »

Why not reform English spelling, by using, instead of an alphabet, a radical-and-determiner logography like Egyptian hieroglyphics or Kanji? That would circumvent all the objections posted so far.
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Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock »

EUROPAN

A personi con a bon ortografie win no multu con a reform, e dat is wai anti-reformis ha moustlik a gud ortografie. Lis efortou mult, meibi lis dobro vizualizis, meibi la do. So lis hav a ventage wen oni compara lis con a minu bon ortografie o meme con a mau ortografie.

Pople co minu gud ortografie o mau ortografie o lernis - scolis o L2 lernis - havau super plu tu win. Suomiano scolis nesesit un ano tu riche la same nivel af alfabetizacion pro ki inglishe scolis nesesita tris ano. So lu depende de yu as a milionari ki sei li ha la moni e li vote pro la partie ki luta pro su dreto tu stei super plu rike dan el otris, o si yu as a milionari ki vota pro a partie ki luta pro plu sociale justitee.

Clar: si oni creat a sistem in ki pople can lern alu dat a doctor sa in pro exemplo un mez, la doctoris va no laike lu absolutli, coze la ventage ki lis ha comparli co la plebe vou bi awei, e lis perdau su job. Solo super poco ki pens el okeitee duhumanitee is plus importante ki su oun aprovau lu.

Mas ai un otre ventage pro ali, meme si lu rada mega pro pople co mau ortografie e mini pro pople co bon ortografie: i vidou multi pople ki spik inglish e fa pronunciacion falsitees. Somu de lus hapen coze su lingua ha no la sones dat inglishe ha, mas otris fa falsitees coz el ortografie is dislidar. Clar, dat hapen moustli tu L2 lernis, mas i lernou frecuentli dat i was pronunse certo vordes na falso wei in mai toto viv, e mem universitee profesis dat is nativo spikis verifi somwen ki lis pronunsou some vordes falsli - e como lis constatou dat? In grupas dat uza reformat ortografies.

Salutus de Wegscheid, nir el austrish e la ceski fronter.



ENGLISH

A good speller doesnt have much to win with a reform, which is why anti-reformers are mostly good spellers. They've put lots of effort on it, maybe they're good word visualizers, maybe both. So they have an advantage comparing with less good spellers and bad spellers.

Less good spellers, bad spellers and learners - be they school children or L2 learners - would have much more to win. Finnish pupils need one year to attain the same level of literacy for which english pupils need 3 years. So it's up to you if you're like a millionaire who says he has the money and he votes for the party that fights for his right to remain much richer than the others, or if you are like a millionaire who votes for a party who fights for more social justice.

Of course: if you create a system in which people can learn all a doctor knows in say one month, doctors wont like it at all, because the advantage they have comparing with the riff-raff would be gone, and they'd lose their jobs. Only very few who think the welfare of humanity is more important than their own would approve of it.

There is another advantage for everyone, tho, altho it is rather big for bad speakers and small for good speakers: i've seen many people speaking english and making pronunciation mistakes. Some of them happen because their language dont have the sounds english has, but others make mistakes because the spelling is misleading. Of course this happens mostly to L2 learners, but i learned often that i was pronouncing certain words the wrong way all my life, and even university professors that are native speakers find out sometimes that they have been pronouncing a word the wrong way - and how they've found that out? Because they are in groups that use reformed spelling.

Greetings from Wegscheid, near the austrian and the czech border.
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