(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien »

Sanskrit question: What sound, exactly, does the letter "ḥ" represent? How come I see it in noun declension tables in word-final position where I would expect to see "s" (and often do see "s")? Was final "s" not pronounced /s/ in Sanskrit? I'm just a little confused.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: 14 Feb 2020 18:27 Sanskrit question: What sound, exactly, does the letter "ḥ" represent? How come I see it in noun declension tables in word-final position where I would expect to see "s" (and often do see "s")? Was final "s" not pronounced /s/ in Sanskrit? I'm just a little confused.
IIRC, it's called "visarga", and is pronounced [h], as an allophone of /r/ and /s/ in pausa, although I don't know what the exact rules are for when you see [ s] vs. when you see [h].
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen »

sangi39 wrote: 14 Feb 2020 19:48
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: 14 Feb 2020 18:27 Sanskrit question: What sound, exactly, does the letter "ḥ" represent? How come I see it in noun declension tables in word-final position where I would expect to see "s" (and often do see "s")? Was final "s" not pronounced /s/ in Sanskrit? I'm just a little confused.
IIRC, it's called "visarga", and is pronounced [h], as an allophone of /r/ and /s/ in pausa, although I don't know what the exact rules are for when you see [ s] vs. when you see [h].
Not to mention the other sibilants, [r], or elision of the consonant with or without an accompanying change in the quality of the preceding vowel – which in turn then may or may not coalesce with the initial vowel of the following word... [D;] Sanskrit sandhi is complicated, man. And since the standard Romanization tries its best to faithfully recreate it, you tend to run into it even if you stick to transcriptions. (Then again, some works might use non-standard Romanizations, because otherwise this just wouldn't be confusing enough. [¬.¬] )

I'd have a fairly good Sanskrit grammar with an extensive list of sandhi rules, but it's on dead trees and in Finnish, so I won't link to it right now. A bit of Googling yielded this page on this particular kind of sandhi; I'm assuming they have more somewhere, but, much like Sanskrit grammar itself, the site appears to be somewhat difficult to navigate. Good luck.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

Xonen wrote: 14 Feb 2020 22:19
sangi39 wrote: 14 Feb 2020 19:48
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: 14 Feb 2020 18:27 Sanskrit question: What sound, exactly, does the letter "ḥ" represent? How come I see it in noun declension tables in word-final position where I would expect to see "s" (and often do see "s")? Was final "s" not pronounced /s/ in Sanskrit? I'm just a little confused.
IIRC, it's called "visarga", and is pronounced [h], as an allophone of /r/ and /s/ in pausa, although I don't know what the exact rules are for when you see [ s] vs. when you see [h].
Not to mention the other sibilants, [r], or elision of the consonant with or without an accompanying change in the quality of the preceding vowel – which in turn then may or may not coalesce with the initial vowel of the following word... [D;] Sanskrit sandhi is complicated, man. And since the standard Romanization tries its best to faithfully recreate it, you tend to run into it even if you stick to transcriptions. (Then again, some works might use non-standard Romanizations, because otherwise this just wouldn't be confusing enough. [¬.¬] )

I'd have a fairly good Sanskrit grammar with an extensive list of sandhi rules, but it's on dead trees and in Finnish, so I won't link to it right now. A bit of Googling yielded this page on this particular kind of sandhi; I'm assuming they have more somewhere, but, much like Sanskrit grammar itself, the site appears to be somewhat difficult to navigate. Good luck.
Yeah, I largely stay away from Sanskrit sandhi. I don't know if it's just that way that it's described, or if it actually is, but I've never really been able to get my head round it. I remember the basics, and that's about it.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

I have at last started to read Salish grammars.

But what does glottalization actually mean? A short "pause" after the consonant or what?
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Omzinesý wrote: 26 Feb 2020 13:14 I have at last started to read Salish grammars.

But what does glottalization actually mean? A short "pause" after the consonant or what?
Glottalization can refer to one of two possible articulation. A short full closure of the glottis that interrupts the acoustic signal, i.e. "a pause". This usually occurs with stop consonants, but Vietnamese does have it on vowels. The second kind of glottalization is a partial closure that lasts throughout the articulation of a sound, very similar if not identical to creaky voice. This is usually found on sonorants. The Wikipedia articule on glottalization is actually not so bad.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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I had no luck with scientific definitions back ~20yrs ago when I was trying to work ejective consonants into my conlangs. what i really needed was sound clips. Ejective stops are not clusters like /pʔ tʔ kʔ/ and i wouldnt really characterize them as just an interruption of the sound either even if it's correct from a scientific point of view ... an ejective stop is a single sound, a sharper sound. the Wikipedia article doesnt really give a dscription of how to pronounce them, so i'll just repeat what worked for me.

start to say the plain consonant you want, but then before you release the sound, also try to say the glottal stop /ʔ/. then, release both closures simultaneously. the result should be a sharper sounding version of the plain stop. Then, try to work it down so that you can say the glottalized sounds just as fast as the nromal ones and youll get a weaker but still distinctive sound that corresponds to what occurs in connected speech in typical languages with ejectives.

For the non-stops ... well, i have never used glottalized sonorants or fricatives but the same advice seems to work for me. Im pretty sure my /s_>/ is right and though Im less sure about what glottalized nasals are like Im pretty sure I could work it out with a sound clip.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

Pabappa wrote: 26 Feb 2020 19:48 I had no luck with scientific definitions back ~20yrs ago when I was trying to work ejective consonants into my conlangs. what i really needed was sound clips. Ejective stops are not clusters like /pʔ tʔ kʔ/ and i wouldnt really characterize them as just an interruption of the sound either even if it's correct from a scientific point of view ... an ejective stop is a single sound, a sharper sound. the Wikipedia article doesnt really give a dscription of how to pronounce them, so i'll just repeat what worked for me.

start to say the plain consonant you want, but then before you release the sound, also try to say the glottal stop /ʔ/. then, release both closures simultaneously. the result should be a sharper sounding version of the plain stop. Then, try to work it down so that you can say the glottalized sounds just as fast as the nromal ones and youll get a weaker but still distinctive sound that corresponds to what occurs in connected speech in typical languages with ejectives.

For the non-stops ... well, i have never used glottalized sonorants or fricatives but the same advice seems to work for me. Im pretty sure my /s_>/ is right and though Im less sure about what glottalized nasals are like Im pretty sure I could work it out with a sound clip.
So glottalized stops and ejectives are the same thing?

Creyeditor wrote: 26 Feb 2020 18:43
Omzinesý wrote: 26 Feb 2020 13:14 I have at last started to read Salish grammars.

But what does glottalization actually mean? A short "pause" after the consonant or what?
Glottalization can refer to one of two possible articulation. A short full closure of the glottis that interrupts the acoustic signal, i.e. "a pause". This usually occurs with stop consonants, but Vietnamese does have it on vowels. The second kind of glottalization is a partial closure that lasts throughout the articulation of a sound, very similar if not identical to creaky voice. This is usually found on sonorants. The Wikipedia articule on glottalization is actually not so bad.
I read the Wikimedia it but didn't get it.
You crarify much already.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa »

Omzinesý wrote: 27 Feb 2020 15:03

So glottalized stops and ejectives are the same thing?
Well, ejectives are just one type of glottalization. Implosives are also considered glottalized consonants. But for voiceless stops, ejectives are far more common than implosives, so if this is meant to be a stable phonology ejectives would be the best choice.

also, I found this just now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottalic ... _consonant . "Clicky and dull" isnt the word I would use but perhaps just calling it sharp isnt that helpful either ... people will have different acoustic impressions of the same sound.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sequor »

I agree ejective consonants tend to sound click-y, in the sense of acoustically similar to clicks.

Some samples of ejective consonants in Amharic on Forvo:

https://forvo.com/word/%E1%8C%A5%E1%89% ... %E1%8A%95/
ጥቅል ጎመን /tʼɨkʼɨl gomən/ (ejective [t] and [k])
https://forvo.com/word/%E1%88%9A%E1%8C% ... %E1%8C%A3/
ሚጥሚጣ /mitʼmitʼa/ (ejective [t])
https://forvo.com/word/%E1%8B%AD%E1%89% ... %E1%89%B3/
ይቅርታ /jɨkʼɨrta/ (ejective [k])
https://forvo.com/word/%E1%8B%B0%E1%88%A8%E1%89%85/#am
ደረቅ /tərəkʼ/ (word-final ejective [k])
https://forvo.com/word/%E1%8A%A0%E1%8D% ... %E1%8C%AB/
አፍንጫ /ʔəfɨntʃʼa/ (ejective [tʃ])
https://forvo.com/word/%E1%8C%BD%E1%8A% ... %E1%8A%9B/
ጽንፈኛ /sʼɨnfəɲa/ (ejective [ s])

Some videos with cute animations of [pʼ], [tʼ] and [kʼ]:
https://enunciate.arts.ubc.ca/p%ca%bc/
https://enunciate.arts.ubc.ca/t%ca%bc/
https://enunciate.arts.ubc.ca/k%ca%bc/

Peter Ladefoged's old companion website for the 5th edition of his phonetics textbook is still up, with the audio samples available in .aiff format for some reason. (Once you're looking at a language, click on the transcribed words to download the file for that word.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

I think I have relatively good understanding what ejectives are. I have less understanding on implosives but they are easy to pronounce.

So if I understood you all right, there are three kinds of glattalized consonants (+ consonant clusters with a glottal stop which might opetated on the phonemic level)
1. ejectives
2. implosives
3. narrowing of glottis, the creaky voice thing

1. and 2. are usually stops. 3. can be any consonants but are more frequent as non-stops.

Apparently some Salish languages have both ejectives and 3. as stops.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sequor »

Some random thing about the origin of the term "case" that I posted elsewhere in another forum:

--- --- ---

[A]s early as Dionysius Thrax's grammar in the 2nd century BC, cases were talked about in terms of a metaphor of the equilibrium of an object.

The nominative (ὁ ὀνομαστική 'the one related to naming', from ὀνομάζω 'to name sth') was first placed at a 90-degree angle, due to being the most prominent case as it was what came out when saying the name of an object. The metaphor was to place it in the balanced position of equilibrium, the normal way for things to rest. Then the other cases were thought of as changes to the equilibrium, so they were considered "fallings" of the object resting at 90 degrees. That is, the "fallings" were what happened when the noun at rest was tipped over.

Because the nominative was at that angle, it was also called the "right" case (ὁ ὀρθός 'the straight/correct/right-angled one', or ἡ εὐθεῖα 'the straight line'), and it was opposed to the other cases which were called the "oblique" ones (αἱ πτώσεις πλάγιαι 'the slanting/oblique-angled fallings').

Over time, the term "falling" (πτῶσις) was also applied to the nominative case as well, so they all became "fallings". These terms were then carried over to Latin, where nōminātīvus 'the one related to naming' (from nōmināre 'to name sth') was used to calque ὀνομαστική, rēctus 'straight' to calque ὀρθός and ἡ εὐθεῖα, and cāsūs oblīquī 'slanting fallings' was used to calque πτώσεις πλάγιαι.

I don't know why the Latin phrase cāsus rēctus is usually translated as "the direct case" in English (as opposed to "the right case"), but I suspect it may be an influence of the phrase "direct object", besides, perhaps, some confusion with the actual meanings of dīrēctus. I also find it interesting that in French scholarship on Old French and Old Occitan, the direct case and oblique case of those two languages are traditionally called cas sujet 'case of the subject' and cas régime 'case of what is ruled', even though French linguistics does use the terms cas direct and cas oblique elsewhere.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

What is DP?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar »

Omzinesý wrote: 09 Mar 2020 10:30What is DP?
In what context?
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Post by J_from_Holland »

Do you mean a DP, Determiner Phrase, in Generative Grammar?
A few years, I posted about Bløjhvåtterskyll. That's Barmish nowadays, and it's quite different from back then.
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Post by sangi39 »

Omzinesý wrote: 09 Mar 2020 10:30What is DP?
Dependent phrase maybe, but yeah, context.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

shimobaatar wrote: 09 Mar 2020 11:25
Omzinesý wrote: 09 Mar 2020 10:30What is DP?
In what context?
A guy in Omegle asked for such a thing. 😂

Something like NP movement and and DP movement.
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Post by J_from_Holland »

Yeah then it's a Noun Phrase (or Nominal Phrase) and a Determiner Phrase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determiner_phrase
A few years, I posted about Bløjhvåtterskyll. That's Barmish nowadays, and it's quite different from back then.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

Omzinesý wrote: 09 Mar 2020 12:52
shimobaatar wrote: 09 Mar 2020 11:25
Omzinesý wrote: 09 Mar 2020 10:30What is DP?
In what context?
A guy in Omegle asked for such a thing. 😂

Something like NP movement and and DP movement.
Ohhhh, determiner phrase? It looks like it's used a lot like "NP" or "VP" in that once you start looking at articles and resources about it, you should already be familiar with what the abbreviations mean (the first page of results of Google, for example, most of the articles don't explicitly use "noun phrase" or "determine phrase" at all, and just use NP and DP from the start).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

sangi39 wrote: 09 Mar 2020 13:34
Omzinesý wrote: 09 Mar 2020 12:52
shimobaatar wrote: 09 Mar 2020 11:25
Omzinesý wrote: 09 Mar 2020 10:30What is DP?
In what context?
A guy in Omegle asked for such a thing. 😂

Something like NP movement and and DP movement.
Ohhhh, determiner phrase? It looks like it's used a lot like "NP" or "VP" in that once you start looking at articles and resources about it, you should already be familiar with what the abbreviations mean (the first page of results of Google, for example, most of the articles don't explicitly use "noun phrase" or "determine phrase" at all, and just use NP and DP from the start).
The book explained all other abbreviations in the beginning. Not the one I don't know.
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